Like PS Smith, and MD Stewart, I'm a history buff, and so enjoy the vintage things that have survived time in workable condition.

Also like those two I have articles from both old and new of most things I own. I also enjoy looking at the things that are hand made by very skilled artisans, be it firearms cars, or furniture. Can I also enjoy things made yesterday mostly by machines? Certainly I can as long as they work the way they are supposed to. Am I critical of things old or new that are shoddily made, and/or do not work properly? Hell yes I am. But I see the value in all things I own or wish I owned, new or old, that are made properly.

Because something is affordable but not well made or doesn't work properly, is not a reason for me to buy it or recommend it to others!

......................................................................................

Great thread!

Since I buy all sorts of levels of quality depending on all sorts of factors, I think the answer to your question is a huge, unknowable matrix of things, but three BIG parts of the answer are:

1) My kids and all their generation love black plastic AR's and Glocks because they watch modern movies and play video games instead of watching cowboys like I did. So there's plastic stocked, painted steel.
2) Oracle (and paper spreadsheets, starting around post-64) have allowed us to figure out what nice things (features, finish, decoration, hand work) we can strip from our products, and exactly how crappy our product can be, and still sell at a higher margin. But even the cheap guns have been pretty good. Just ugly. I like mine for travel, bad weather, rough handling.

3) You sort of lumped all modern doubles in one category with low quality. I think double rifles are like antique model guns that have modern replicas. I (and others) like replica guns better than originals because they have new steels and warranties, aren't so expensive you're afraid to take them hunting or traveling to a hunt, but they have the old fashioned look and feel.

Steve

I'm just doing my very best as a fellow school teacher, Cal! Three years ago, at age 32, I bought my Merkel .500NE. Of course I wish I could've afforded either a vintage NE double or a Heym or VC. However, it's a budget-balancing act, between real bills and safari dreams and traditional bows, the Merky was the best I could afford. Even though it is humble, it still works very well indeed, and makes me feel really good when I walk into the bush. I'm starting to lose count of the buffalo I have killed with it, as well as the other game. It provides me with adventure and food in a really special way. Of course, I still dream about a nicer double, perhaps someday after I have ticked a few more African dreams off my list. In the meantime, to feed my desire to know the satisfaction of owning and hunting with a beautiful British vintage rifle, I did sell some of my modern factory rifles and a bow or two to purchase a wonderful Rigby .275 made in 1898. I have also lost count of the buffalo and other game that I have killed with this rifle. I'm a fellow on a journey who is hoping to get to old age with pleasant memories of good adventures with wild animals and good longbows and rifles in remote wilderness, and so far I'm not doing too bad a job, if I may say so - for a humble school teacher!

I'm with you all the way, Cal. We might be long lost brothers.

I guess I stimulated some thought here. It is good to get varied opinions and they don't have to agree with me. My point was not to look down on anything, just a question that we, as Americans, have lowered our standards. That's true in our morals, religion, politics, education, etc.

And.just to let all of you know, I am the proud owner of the ugliest POS rifle on earth--a Remington Model 600 in .350 Rem. Mag. Ugly bolt, ugly laminated cheap wood stock, plastic floor plate, and the ugliest abortion ever put on a rifle--a plastic vent. rib! If mates come up to hunt and they don't have a rifle, they use this one.

I appreciate all of your comments, agreeing with me or not or somewhere in-between. As John Taylor said, "Keep a comin'."
Cal

Many, like me, consider an modern CNC built SS rifle with a modern aftermarket SS barrel in a high quality synthetic stock to be a significant upgrade from a factory barreled wood and blue rifle. I guess this thread, which is intersting, shows two preferences. One is for aesthetics and nostalgia, the other is for performance and value. Neither is better than the other, just different.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
just a question that we, as Americans, have lowered our standards. That's true in our morals, religion, politics, education, etc.

Lowered our standards or become (even more) a mass production and consumption society - I think we American have always been that.

We can wander into everything from home building to wal mart but lets just stick to guns.

If you want a multi-generational craftsman created firearm - buy a smith and wesson. There are multi-generations making revolvers at S&W. Problem in that world is you have the mindset of being static - can't produce anything new with existing tooling. Get a Gaston Glock come around with a blank sheet of paper and turn your world around.

You want a bespoke rifle - you can get Martini to make you one for $15K. All these fine english gunmakers today are owned by large luxury brand or private equity. The value in holland and holland is not a over priced over hand manufactured double rifle or shotgun. Its the franchise value of the brand - the name can be put of other higher margin merchandize.

For the money you get a damn good rifle ruger, winchester, tikka or cz for sub $1000. On performance it will be within 90% of a martini.

You cannot expect bespoke craftsman ship when labor costs are real.

Cal if you break anything in your old english double rifle who fixes it ?

As much as I like to lament and bitch about no longer having any craftsmanship in US or everything made in China. I love the fact I can go to Amazon, Costco or Cabelas and get stuff that has maximum value for the dollar.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

The vintage guns, especially British doubles, tend to increase in value and that fact matters to some people. For me, mine is a turn of the century work of art, that fits, like a glove, points instinctively, shoots accurately, and will travel to Africa this year.

That said, financially it's like a mutual fund I get to fondle and enjoy and then someday pass on to a family member or sell at a profit.

A modern gun can not be that in my lifetime.

Cheers
Jim

Jim

My mutual funds suck !!!!

Maybe I am jaded and biased but I have seen all these fine English doubles sell for pennies. Growing up in India with no ammo available - people would trade any of these fine english doubles for a crappy post 64 push feed winchester in 30/06 in a heartbeat.

Two things have created your appreciating assets (just like Uncle Ben, Aunty Janet, Uncle Abe and Uncle Monti/Draghi has created rising mutual funds).

1986 is the key year. That year India stopped the import of new firearms for civilian use - these new firearms were I think subject to a 300% duty.

Same time all the fine London gun makers who were getting back into making double rifles to sell to Americans figured you cannot charge $X for a new bespoke double when the ones in India (were a majority resided) were selling for 1/50-1/100 the cost. So they went to India and bought up as many guns as the could.

In the last 30 years India became much richer (look at Bombay real estate as an comp) and the number of gun license also went up. Suddenly with no imported guns to meet the demand and really crappy local ones. These old doubles had value - more just for telling people "one has made it and has a gun license and a imported gun." They would really want a cool synthetic stocked rifle with a nice big scope to take on their night poaching runs but such is life.

Mike

Mr. Pappas,
Do you by chance know how many man hours it takes to deliver a modern double rifle from Holland or Westley Richards or the like?

Thank you!

"So, they take a much less expensive option and expect to be treated as if their $7000 Chapuis is the same as your vintage 600 Wilkes."

Wow....really?

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:
Do you by chance know how many man hours it takes to deliver a modern double rifle from Holland or Westley Richards or the like?

Possibly in the 800-1200 range, depending on engraving options.

In my middle 50s I find myself using the stainless steel and plastic more and more. Easy to care for, not much sadness I if drop one crossing a river before dawn.

How do you take a work of art, that costs as much as my first house, and give it to the luggage guys at the airport? I can figure out how to buy the H&H double. I just cannot even think of putting it on the plane and going through African airports. Do most of these 50 to 100K rifles hunt, or do they hide in a safe?

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:
Mr. Pappas,
Do you by chance know how many man hours it takes to deliver a modern double rifle from Holland or Westley Richards or the like?

Thank you!

I don't follow any modern arms, but I would guess 500-1000 hours.
Cal

quote:

Cal if you break anything in your old english double rifle who fixes it ?

Griffin & Howe, Keith Kearcher, JJ Perodeau. Between the three, all bases are covered from regulation, a complete refinish, recoil pads, to making new main springs or front sights. That said, the only repair I've had done is ejectors out of time. The old rifles were made very good. While I have repaired damage or wear, true repairs for faulty or broken parts are very rare.
Cal

I find the varying opinions very interesting and I will confess up front that new doubles hold zero appeal to me.
Two points which come up on this topic are the use of CNC machining and the argument against aesthetics and ornamentation.
First, you always hear the argument that "use of CNC makes it possible to make more precise and reliable parts than an old gun"
Well then, why don't they?
There are any number of posts here and on other forums about function issues with new rifles. Of course, some old rifles also have problems but there are also many which have served for decades and thousands of rounds with nothing more than normal maintenance. The point is, use of CNC is no guarantee of anything. The parts all need final hand finishing and fitting anyway to insure reliability and proper function. It just gets most of the work done faster.
Secondly, why buy a rifle which isn't beautiful? The argument is always "is a rifle made to hunt or is it made to look at?"
I say BOTH! And as far as the personal enjoyment of ownership, the aesthetic appeal and quality of design and its execution is paramount. The fact that it could also be a century old or older just makes the appeal stronger to me.
Look around your house at the things you have spent your life acquiring. Do you have any old books, china or silver? Do your walls have any art hanging? Do you have any bronzes or sculpture? Do you have furniture which you find pleasing to your eye? If so, I doubt you bought any of it at IKEA.
I say, let the masses buy new low priced doubles! For me, a fine old hammer BPE rifle is not only beautiful to behold, but is as much gun as I will ever need and better than money in the bank!

This is a very interesting thread, they always are. I've participated in similar threads on other boards and they all turned into urinating matches. Good to see this one hasn't.

The fella I worked for in Wyoming used to say, "It's a matter of taste, and there's no accounting for taste". I believe that is undoubtably a big part of it. Perhaps there is also a generational divide. For many, as myself, cost is a very real factor. Another reason, as was graciously posted by another, is function over form. Another gentleman mentioned not wanting to carry an expensive rifle in the field. That too is an understandable reason to not own a more expensive rifle. Probably there is 1,000 more reasons there are those who are willing to settle for less "fluff" as it was called...I prefer craftsmanship.

I do however, believe standards have declined. To paraphrase Churchill, I have lived and long and a good life but I do not care to repeat it. The standards have been to greatly degraded. That isn't to mean CNC machining and synthetic stocks do not make for accurate and dependable rifles, they do. Laser etching, stamped or molded checkering leave me cold. One cannot hold or look at a rifle so produced and consider it elegant. Good rifles to be certain but about as elegant as a hedge fence post. See, there's that "no accounting for taste" thing again. I'm glad they're all out there. Everyone who wants to play or hunt with a double rifle has the opportunity and with a bit of dedication to purpose, ie, saving, can have something they can use and THEY can be proud of.

Me, I like those pre-WWI hammer doubles, Jones underlevers, dolls head extensions and back action locks. I can afford them, usually, and I much prefer the old stuff, (taste?). (Criminy...I even cut about a cord of firewood a year with a one man crosscut saw!!!). My favorite is my E. Goldmann, BP, German double on a LeFaucheux action. I have yet to own an old DR with an acceptable bore, doesn't have to be pristine by any stretch, or work with one for a friend that I haven't been able to make shoot adequately...and some surprisingly accurately!!!

I don't see a generational divide. In middle age my preference for performance first have not changed. When I see a vintage anything, while I may appreciate it for what it was in its time, by today's standards I see something that is outdated and has been surpassed. Leaving behind the low-end junk that has been with us in every age, modern stuff performs better than old stuff. There are always exceptions, but I wouldn't trade my newer stuff for older stuff--except when it comes to my wife. No newer model comes close to her......

Rather than generational, I think this discussion is more one of personality. While not all of can afford to drop $100K on a rifle, most of us can choose between vintage and new. I am just not a sentimental type of guy, and my focus is to always look forward.


Again, I don't see a right or a wrong. So what makes you happy and I will be happy for you as well.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
...modern stuff performs better than old stuff. There are always exceptions...

Double rifles being one exception.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
When I see a vintage anything, while I may appreciate it for what it was in its time, by today's standards I see something that is outdated and has been surpassed.

That is where I believe you are mistaken. The finest double rifles ever built were built between WWI and WWII. The design, workmanship and functionality has not been duplicated since. That is why English doubles from this period handle and point so well. It will be interesting to see in 2115 how Heyms, VCs, Chapuis and other currently manufactured doubles have stood the test of time. There are plenty of English doubles that are 90-100 years old that still see regular use, and not just by casual shooters. Take Andrew Dawson with Chifuti for example that uses an old William Evans.

I think, with technology we can create just as good doubles very reasonably today as in the days gone by, when doubles were so expensive , only very wealthy people could afford them.
Nowadays middle class has a lot more buying power in compare with the past.
Love my Sabattis and they shoot awesome.
Like some of you pointed out, they were designed for close and dangerous encounters, thus meant to be shot within 20-30 yards or less majority of time.
Hunting boars when I was kid and young man , best option for me was double 16 gauge with lead slugs and if they came at me wounded, you didn't shoot until meter or two away so you didn't miss.
You didn't wanna miss...

Well...my 1880's E. M. Reilley will hold 2 inches or less, 3 shot composite group, standing bench rest, at 50 yards with open sights. It will do that just about all day long too. I've fired much newer Perugini's, Searcy's and Chapuis that don't do any better, or as good, with a scope. I don't see how they surpassed the 135 year old Reilley in accuracy. No question the metallurgy is better and under heavy use will probably outlast the old Reilley...from this day forward anyway, seeing as how the rifle already has 135 years of use behind it.

My first double i had was a Merkel 470 i bought 13 years ago ,which was alot of money for me ,the engraving was poorly done [wobbly lines scrolls],one side clip was noticeably shorter than the other ,and it shot terribly ,i sent an angry email to Merkel about it ,telling them i was not happy with it at all, and would not buy one of their guns again .
I dont know how some gun manufacturers can let there products out the door in Good Conscience, i could not .I also had a New Savage stainless syn 7mm Mag had pits on the outside of the barrel and the tip of the trigger was chipped off ,whether its the attitude of '' its going to a foreign country, and we can dump the 2nds there, because we know we wont ever see them again ''.Even in old African Hunting books you can read about English guns that were not great quality, Taylor with a cheap Grade 600 that double discharged etc ,doesnt say what brand it was .Another ,a hunter arrived with a fancy double rifle, after 25 shots the barrels came apart .Ian Nyschens double[barrels] eventually came apart but was sent back to the UK where it was repaired free of charge .There is one Searcy double owner who has fired something like 4000 shots out of his rifle, with no problems ,can you get any better than that ?? i would like to see a New English gun do that !

Do I jear folks apologizing because they bought an $8K Merkel? Y'all need to step back and take a breather..or let some of the air out.

If some company comes up with a CNC mass made double with minimal hand fitting that is a good quality gun....would anyone here be able to admit it. Doubt it....

Conclusion?
Right where we started
Everyone has an opinion just like everyone has an asshole
Some Look and smell better than others

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
When I see a vintage anything, while I may appreciate it for what it was in its time, by today's standards I see something that is outdated and has been surpassed.

That is where I believe you are mistaken. The finest double rifles ever built were built between WWI and WWII. The design, workmanship and functionality has not been duplicated since. That is why English doubles from this period handle and point so well. It will be interesting to see in 2115 how Heyms, VCs, Chapuis and other currently manufactured doubles have stood the test of time. There are plenty of English doubles that are 90-100 years old that still see regular use, and not just by casual shooters. Take Andrew Dawson with Chifuti for example that uses an old William Evans.

Mike I agree with your line of thinking! There are no better, or skillfully made double rifle than those made in that period between the wars. However that only applies to three or four makers, and to the upper examples by them. All the makers made doubles for the Army&Navy trade, with no frills field grade rifles. When those rifles were only 15 years old they were simply 15 yr old used rifles, and did not command the increase in value that they do today. The higher grade, held their upward clime in value, but the field grade lagged behind, especially if they were trade field grade for several years.

My point being, most new doubles bought today are the field grade or just above, and a 10 year old double today is a used rifle and commands a used rifle price just the same as the ones made between the wars did when 10 years old.

Just like today some of the makers today make both classes of doubles, and are not old enough the command a rise in price. They are simply good working used double rifles, but you are correct it will be interesting to see how they sell in 2115 after they have been owned by PHs that are then “VINTAGE” bush heroes, like the guys who owned Andrew Dawson’s double. I predict any 100 yr old rifle that still works will command a good price compared to what it cost new. That is, if we are still allowed to own guns at all of any age.

I too love the old English doubles, but am not embarrassed to pull a new made field grade out of the case on safari, or at the shooting club. I have a Westley Richards double that is 123 yrs old that was top of the line when new, but shows some age today but still most would rather have it than a new double rifle that works just fine. That just means perception is everything where name brand is involved!


........................................................................

Am really have a hard time believing and new H&H double made today is of less quality than the ones made in between the wars. However, I DO know modern steels are much better than older steels.

I think this is an interesting thread. I just want to throughout a couple of thoughts. Yes the post WW1 rifles are considered to be the best, this is where/when they finally figured out how to balance the rifles and how to improve the fit of the stocks so they shouldered and pointed well. Yes I am impressed with the craftsmanship involved in making the rifles in that period. Given the tools and working conditions of the time it is no wonder that it took 8 months to a year to make a best quality rifle. Back when they used files and hacksaws and chisels to fashion actions. Why is it considered not as good when they now can complete a rifle in maybe a month (aside from engraving) that has better steel and better fit and finish? We can build rifles that can hold better than .0005 tolerance throughout. Why is this not as good as rifles that may have +/-0.005 between barrels?
Now a new H&H will start at $157,405.5 and that is I think before you decide on engraving pattern. Now is there anyone who thinks that H&H isn’t using modern manufacturing processes?
Bill

All this discussion is in vain because we know it doesn't matter what we think until Shoots A Cow blesses our rifle it is a turd.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Am really have a hard time believing and new H&H double made today is of less quality than the ones made in between the wars. However, I DO know modern steels are much better than older steels.

Believe it. All you have to do is handle a pre-War H&H Royal and a current H&H and all doubt will be removed.

quote:

Why is it considered not as good when they now can complete a rifle in maybe a month (aside from engraving) that has better steel and better fit and finish?

Modern alloyed steels may be "better" but I must be looking at the wrong newly made production rifles, because I have yet to see one with anything even approaching the fit and finish of a pre WW1 rifle from the likes of Alex Henry, Fraser or Gibbs just to name three.

So here who has compared an new H&H double side-by-side with a vintage one? What specifically are the differences in quality?

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
So here who has compared an new H&H double side-by-side with a vintage one? What specifically are the differences in quality?

Engraving is one example. Over the last century engraving has become for course,i.e. less fine scroll and more flamboyant. Not that that is bad, it is what the public wants and buys.
Cal

quote:

First, you always hear the argument that "use of CNC makes it possible to make more precise and reliable parts than an old gun"
Well then, why don't they?

Crap! I wish I had said this.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Am really have a hard time believing and new H&H double made today is of less quality than the ones made in between the wars. However, I DO know modern steels are much better than older steels.

Believe it. All you have to do is handle a pre-War H&H Royal and a current H&H and all doubt will be removed.

I have and the old ones are terrible for me. There is a reason for it - the older doubles have shorter length of pull. I am 6-1 - the guns were not designed for customers anywhere near that. The guns today - the standard store bespoke size ( of which they sell the most guns) have much longer length of pull.

I go to the London H&H store once a year - a lot of the used older guns have extensions put in the stocks to increase the length.

We have some experts in English doubles - who bought the english doubles between the wars ? I will guess that the number 1 customer for all of the old english double makers was the Nizam of Hyderabad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizam_of_Hyderabad

Most of his guns were just built to one specification. He was well known for gifting these rifles.

Its nice having this discussion about the quality of doubles but Biebs told me Blaser figured it out with their s-2 rifles and its just not worth it to do more R&D on doubles

Now reading this thread I really regret not buying a H&H double in 375 they had at the london store. It was a true left hand - not the left had that Hyem and VC (and even H&H) make today - which is sticking a left hand stock on a right hand gun. This gun has a true custom built left hand action with everything left handed.

Mike

Mike, There are people who would not accept that rifle as it isn't a 375 flanged.
Bill

We all,shoot what we can afford. Some folks have massive financial obligations and a Sabbatti gets them into the double game.

Me I happened to luck into a K Gun in 470 with 200 rounds of ammo, case, extra peep,sight, and rolling duffle for,it all,for 7k. Otherwise I might still not have a double.

Is it a lesser gun than a Holand or other fine maker? No idea but it pains me less to carry it in the doled and trust it to baggage monkeys.

To each their own as long as they are graduating np from bei g "bolt trash".

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

Now reading this thread I really regret not buying a H&H double in 375 they had at the london store. It was a true left hand - not the left had that Hyem and VC (and even H&H) make today - which is sticking a left hand stock on a right hand gun. This gun has a true custom built left hand action with everything left handed.

Mike

Chapuis, Searcy, and Heym will all build a lefty with the left trigger out front. Most lefty's are comfortable moving the opening lever to the right to open the action but I remember Butch telling me I could have it either way so bet Heym and Chapuis would do that as well.
How much more left handed can we go?

quote:

My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost.

Not to change the subject to hijack this thread, but the above line is the best thing I've read here on AR. I just love it as it is so true for a good percentage of the married gents here. I appreciate your insight.

As an example, I sold a double to a mate for well over 10K and he asked me for an appraisal. (I appraise doubles for insurance companies on the side). I told him I could comfortably add 10% for insurance and he said, "No, how about 2000$. It is for my wife!" A man who would deceive his wife like that would spend his hard earned income on hookers! There is something to be said for bachelorhood!
Cheers, mates, and sorry for the hijack. Back to the topic now.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost.

Not to change the subject to hijack this thread, but the above line is the best thing I've read here on AR. I just love it as it is so true for a good percentage of the married gents here. I appreciate your insight.

As an example, I sold a double to a mate for well over 10K and he asked me for an appraisal. (I appraise doubles for insurance companies on the side). I told him I could comfortably add 10% for insurance and he said, "No, how about 2000$. It is for my wife!" A man who would deceive his wife like that would spend his hard earned income on hookers! There is something to be said for bachelorhood!
Cheers, mates, and sorry for the hijack. Back to the topic now.
Cal

Cal,

I worked with a guy that had a friend he called a "gun runner". I asked what he meant and he said that ever time his friend bought a new gun he had to time his arrival home so he could run in the house and put the gun in the safe before his wife saw it.

Mine on the other hand at the show yesterday (nice to see you BTW) decided we should get a larger safe since ours is somewhat "tight".

Cheers
Jim

Like I told my wife when she commented my old double..."Ah...that one....a prewar rifle that I got darn cheap..."