I go over to Butch Searcy's site from time to time to drool, and stumbled across this.

Last time I was there, a couple weeks ago, that set was $26,000.

Scope the .375 and there wouldn't be anything, anywhere you couldn't hunt with it...

Not sure I would call the 450-400 a "stopper" but that certainly seems a pretty good deal.
Peter.

Since the Classic is now $18,000, that's just $2,000 for the second barrel/forearm.

The 450/400 stopped everything I ever shot with it.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The 450/400 stopped everything I ever shot with it.

Yeah, but you shoot better than most!

I wonder why Butch didn't just sell it as a .450/400 Classic available for immediate delivery and set the .375 barrels back for the next time that caliber is requested?? It's already regulated, so making a complete rifle would only require fitting to an action.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The 450/400 stopped everything I ever shot with it.

Yeah, but you shoot better than most!

When "STOPPING" anything big, it makes no difference what you are shooting if you don't shoot the right spot!

If anyone here has a clean 450/400NE 3" double, and thinks it is too small, and wants a 470NE double rifle that has only taken two ele bulls, and three Cape buffalo, and a few wild hogs, we can work a deal in short order!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The 450/400 stopped everything I ever shot with it.

Yeah, but you shoot better than most!

When "STOPPING" anything big, it makes no difference what you are shooting if you don't shoot the right spot!

This is untrue. Particularly with elephants. As I'm sure you know, the concensus has maintained, for a century or more, that elephant stopping rifles begin at .458" and ~2100fps, aka the 450NE. Stopping does not equal killing or disabling, and you ought to know that and you do.

Your quote, from ~January 4, "It is my belief that any good slap in the face, from any of the .450s up,will most times turn a chargeing ele. However, I wouldn't take that as an absolute, and be ready to slap him again if it didn't!"

I have stopped two charges with imperfect brain shots. 500grs at 2145fps.

And before you or anyone else begins the internet perfection bunk, every PH that I know, maybe 30 retired and still active, admits to missing his share of brain shots. And any PH who hunts elephants regularly is going to have a hell of a lot more experience, and more current experience, knowing where the point of impact required to reach the brain is for any given opportuntiy than even the most ardent client.

Guess what? PH's use big bore rifles! For a current example, take a look at the African Hunting forum and find the "PH Rifles" thread. The great, great, great majority of elephant PH's use .458" and bigger.

Or try this, a count from Boddington's new book:

"The survey of PH's in Boddington's new book states the following PH recommendations for all thick skinned game in any cirumstance:

Caliber..................................# Respondents

.470NE ............................... 20
.416 Rem., Rigby, Wby........ 16
.458 Lott ............................14
.458 Win Mag ......................10
.375 H&H, Wby, Ruger..........10
.500 Jeffrey...........................8
.500-3" NE...........................8
.450 3 1/4" NE ...................5
.505 Gibbs ........................ 4
.450 Dakota ........................2
.475 #2 J ............................1
.450 Rigby.............................1
.450 Ackely .........................1
.450 #2 ..............................1
.425 WR ..............................1

..."

Medium bores, ( 375's, like Saeed's) = 10
Large medium bores, (408-425) = 17

Big bores, (.458" plus) = 75

Ph's who responded to Bodington.

You can repeat the myth about the 450/400 being a stopper, or the refrain "well, just don't miss" all you want, But reality is reality. And it ain't gonna change.

I'll just repeat your line from January 4, when you wrote, "It is my belief that any good slap in the face, from any of the .450s up,will most times turn a chargeing ele. However, I wouldn't take that as an absolute, and be ready to slap him again if it didn't!" Hmmm, "450's up"...

If no one ever missed a brain shot, the perfect elephant rifle would be double rifle in 7x57R for purist or 30-06 for practicalist, like me. Good heavy for calibre solids, plenty of penetration, better penetration even than any NE round or the Lott, light recoil - PERFECT - until reality kicks in...

JPK

Wasn't this rifle set made for am AR member?
Nice set, but a 375Flan and a 450NE would be my combo.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Wasn't this rifle set made for am AR member?
Nice set, but a 375Flan and a 450NE would be my combo.

Yes. Perfect. But consider that for the cost of a new set of barrels you can have 375FL, 450/400 and 450NE.

Great all rounder, great buff rifle, perfect elephant rifle.

Personally I'd prefer two rifles.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:


Personally I'd prefer two rifles.

JPK

Yes, and you do.
A 450 and a 375 I might add.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I wonder why Butch didn't just sell it as a .450/400 Classic available for immediate delivery and set the .375 barrels back for the next time that caliber is requested?? It's already regulated, so making a complete rifle would only require fitting to an action.

While speaking with one of the guys at Butch's shop I asked a similar question. I was told that fitting a second set of double barrels can be a pain in the ass. The issue as I recall is that you are limited in where you can make the adjustments on the second set. The maker can only file on the barrel and not the action since it has already been fitted with another set. Most of the time I was told it is not a major problem however at times the second set takes more time to fit than if one were to build a second complete rifle. Keep in mind the majority of the cost of a double is in the labor...not the components.

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I wonder why Butch didn't just sell it as a .450/400 Classic available for immediate delivery and set the .375 barrels back for the next time that caliber is requested?? It's already regulated, so making a complete rifle would only require fitting to an action.

While speaking with one of the guys at Butch's shop I asked a similar question. I was told that fitting a second set of double barrels can be a pain in the ass. The issue as I recall is that you are limited in where you can make the adjustments on the second set. The maker can only file on the barrel and not the action since it has already been fitted with another set. Most of the time I was told it is not a major problem however at times the second set takes more time to fit than if one were to build a second complete rifle. Keep in mind the majority of the cost of a double is in the labor...not the components.

Makes sense if you are fitting an extra set of barrels to an action with a set, but if they sold this action with the .450/400 barrels as a rifle, they would then have a completed, regulated set of .375 barrels needing only a stocked action fitted to it to be a second complete rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The 450/400 stopped everything I ever shot with it.

Yeah, but you shoot better than most!

I'll just repeat your line from January 4, when you wrote, "It is my belief that any good slap in the face, from any of the .450s up,will most times turn a chargeing ele. However, I wouldn't take that as an absolute, and be ready to slap him again if it didn't!" Hmmm, "450's up"...


JPK

It seems to me your quote above in bold print is agreeing with 450 in qualifying the importance od accurate shooting, being of value!



I still stand by what I said in the thread you quoted me,which was about turning an Elephant easier than turning a cape buffalo during a real charge if I remember correctly.

In that thread it was to make the point that makeing a big slap in the face of an ele, you can easily turn an elephant it in effect stops the charge. The point in that string was that is not the case with Buffalo, once wounded, and he decides to take you on, you will have only one choice, and that is to kill him, or break him down so badly that he can't continue.

A quote from one of PHC's books is on point here where buffalo are concerned. "When a Cape Buffalo sets in motion a concentrated charge, your options are wounderfully simplified! You kill him, or he will kill you!" In this case the only thing that will stop the charge is a brain, or spine shot, and that is easier to do with a 450/400NE than the 450 up rifles, because of recoil recovery time, and ease of makeing very accurate shots when they count more than bullet size!

That is easier to do with a 450/400NE than with a larger chambering because it is easier to shoot the 400 accurately, and recover from recoil faster for follow up shots.

On elephant I agree that stopping him is a whole different ball of wax, if by that you mean putting him on the ground! In that case the .458 400gr to 450gr bullets you use will no more stop him with a close brain shot than the same distance away for the brain with a 400 gr .411 bullet.

I don't know why you have a hard on for the 450/400NE 3" chambering. I suspect that it is simply that it is not what "YOU" shoot, no other reason.

I'm not saying the 450/400NE is better than the 450s, but it is not the pipsqueek you seem to think it is. How many elephant have you shot with a 450/400NE 3". or 3.25"? HUMMM None! How many have you seen shot with a 450/400NE? HUMMMM none!

I too like the 450s, but they are not the only thing that will do a nice job on large animals. There are those who say the only real stopper on Elephant is a 577NE, and I'm quite sure you don't agree with that either, nor do I.

I simply don't see why you think everyone has to agree with you or they are automaticlly wrong.

If I hunted elephant like you do, then I wouldn't use your .458 Win Mag either, IMO, the only perfect round for that exclusive use would be the 500NE 3". So I guess we disagree on both ends!

JPK, my advice to you is not to buy a 450/400NE double rifle, they are junk and so if everybody stops buying them the price will go down, and I can buy more of them! I like junk!

Mac,

The thread from which I quoted you was about stopping elephants, only. A stopping rifle is all about stopping elephants, particularly because of the notorious difficulty in stopping cape buff without braining or spining them, as you are well aware of and support with your own quote (from a source that probably had no idea, but was generally an accurate source in so far as reciting concensus.) Likewise the remainder of the big five, elephants being the exception.

It isn't (just) me that thinks the 450/400 isn't a stopper, it is those with more experience. Read again this information:

The survey of PH's in Boddington's new book states the following PH recommendations for all thick skinned game in any cirumstance:

Caliber..................................# Respondents

.470NE ............................... 20
.416 Rem., Rigby, Wby........ 16
.458 Lott ............................14
.458 Win Mag ......................10
.375 H&H, Wby, Ruger..........10
.500 Jeffrey...........................8
.500-3" NE...........................8
.450 3 1/4" NE ...................5
.505 Gibbs ........................ 4
.450 Dakota ........................2
.475 #2 J ............................1
.450 Rigby.............................1
.450 Ackely .........................1
.450 #2 ..............................1
.425 WR ..............................1

..."

Medium bores, ( 375's, like Saeed's) = 10
Large medium bores, (408-425) = 17

Big bores, (.458" plus) = 75

Ph's who responded to Bodington.

Note that 17 of the medium bores cited provide more energy and penetration than the 450/400's and the ten others provide equal energy and reportedly greater penetration.

Your comment stating that I am hard on the 450/400 because it isn't what I shoot is truly groundless. Were it so, then I would be as equally hard on the 375H&H or Flanged, the 450NE's, 458 Lott, 465H&H, 470, 476WR, 500 et al. But I am not.

What I am hard on is the bunch of blowhards that have little or no experience with dangerous game and particularly elephants who constantly blow sunshine up each others' skirts regarding peformance and reputation the 450/400 never has had and like to play pretend, in so far as the cartridge as a big bore stopper.

I respect those who choose the 450/400 for whatever reason they may have, so long as either they have the experience to earn the respect or do not join in the blowhard make believe. I see little difference between the 450/400 blowhards and the 45/70 blowhards. Each are trying to make their favorite into something it is not. While the 45/70 blowhards sing a chorus of "Its suitable for killing dangerous game," the 450/400 blowhards sing the chorus, "Its a stopper, its a stopper." While each has done what its coolaid drinkers claim, neither is what its clique claims.

Regarding the 577NE, we disagree. It is the epitome of elephant stoppers. The quintessential elephant rifle, but not for a hunter who has to hump his rifle all over Africa day in and day out. And it was never used as a carrying rifle either. Someday, I hope to own one and kill many elephants with it, and it will be carried by some willing soul, but not me, the hunter, just as they were in the past.

I use my rifle because it is what I have, and the best rifle I could afford. I leave it a 458wm, because I'm a practical fellow. Better than 450NE parfromance at 500grs and 2145fps chrono'd. Ammo ubiquituous in Africa, any of which will soot sufficiently well for a ten yard or thrity yard elephant. I've killed enough dangerous game in one trip to have had to barrow ammo to finish my hunt. Try that with a 450NE. And because my rifle has been proven reliable, here and over there. Reliable as to function, either extraction or ejection or performance.

But my rifle isn't my first choice. Its just the highest ranking choice that I could afford.

Now, about my elephant experience, hmmm, I think you know what it is, and it is a hell of a lot more than most anyone here. Lets try a turnabout. How many cape buffalo have you killed? With which rifles and cartridges? How many elephants? With which rifle and cartridges? I know the answer regarding elephants and it is ZERO, I have only a guess regarding cape buff.

Lastly, it is certainly possible to disagree with me and not be wrong. But you can't disagree with history, PH's current and retired, Taylor, Thomson, Nychens, Cedegren, Harland, Grobler and a hundred more and be right!

Harland (458wm), Thomson (458wm), Grobler (458wm?) - bolt rifle men, Taylor (450No2, 465H&H), Nychens (450No2), Cedegren (500NE) - double rifle men. I don't think any of them are wrong. Do you? (Hint, they think you are wrong!)

On the myth of delayed recovery time when shooting elephants with a 450/470 class rifle. There is none. It exist only in the realm of the paper punching clique, but there is none in the filed for anyone familiar with their rifle. See for example Andrew Dawson in Boddington's Buff DVD. No muzzle rise, no delay (he missed the brain on a charging elephant in one sequence, but stopped it with his 470! Hmm, seems I'm in good company already.) Is an overweight 450/400 easier to shoot? Only for those who haven't the drive and dedication to shoot enough with real stopping rifles in the 450/470 class, or even the 500 class according to 500 Grains. Recoil tollerance, for 450/470 class rifles is only learned behavior.

Lastly, the 450/400's are safe from me. While once in a while I think that an 8 3/4lb or maybe 9lb 450/400 has a role to play, I am quick to recall that it is no stopper. Since its no stopper, why bother when a fine, light 375H&H or Flanged double rifle will do as well and provide better penetration. I have a 375H&H A&S Farmars sidelock that weighs 8 1/2lbs - practical because of the ubquitous ammo, proven reliable as well. The only reason I have not yet killed a couple of elephants with it is because it is still being converted to left hand and still awaiting scope mounting to capitalize on its versatility. I hunted Makuti this past November. Nice open country where a 375 H&H is no handicap. Makuti would be a suitable place to hunt elephants with a 450/400 as well.

JPK

JPK, I understand where you are coming from, as it is well known here that you are basically an elephant hunter, with little regard for other things! I am not an elephant hunter, as my score on ele is exactly two shots into the heart lug area of one bull, that my friend botched a brain shot with the first shot. However, my shots from a 500/450NE weren't needed because his second shot hit the ele's brain from a quartering away shot as the bull turned to flee. As far as buffalo go I have taken enough to know what I'm doing with them, and what it takes to stop them. Of course that has nothing to do with your elephant experience.
I think you misunderstood my question, or maybe I didn't make it clear. It was not in regard to your ele hunting experience, that is well known, but your experience with shooting them, or seeing them shot with a 450/400NE, enough to form your opinion of it's suitability in that respect!

I wish I had your experience on Elephant, but sadly I simply can't afford them. I have done well to be able to hunt Buffalo, and because of that my cats and elephant are still walking around Africa!

As you so eloquently state, paper is not the place to form an opinion on the effectiveness of any chambering on game, yet all your opinion is based on what the PHs have recommended. Anyone who is asked what he recommends will invariably recommend what he uses, and that is where your opinion came from, what someone printed on paper indicated by the list in your post to me here. One reason the 450/400NE was not recommended is because for about fifty years ammo, and componants were not available for that caliber, so there are few PHs who have any experience with the chambering! The chambering is only now gaining a following because of the availability of ammo, and componants, and new rifles chambered for it! There are some of us who have been useing the chambering for many years, and so know something about the round, that others only think they know!

It isn't important what you or I think! That changes nothing as far as to the effectiveness of the .400 caliber rifle. It may not be your choice, and that is understandable considering what you hunt, but the news is, there are other dangerous game other than elephant, and something that is only adequate on ele, can still be a STOPPER on Buffalo, lion, and Leopard. You sir are lucky enough to be able to hunt elephant to the tune of several on one safari, However, I doubt most buying a double rifle today will take more than one or two ele in his safari life, if that, but may take several buffalo and other dangerous species that have nothing to do with elephant, or Africa. For those folks, the 450/400NE 3" makes a lot of sense! It just seems to be a bastard to you, which means absolutely nothing to anyone BUT you!

Now I bid you adieu! Good hunting! BYE!

Mac
AS always, you, sir, are a class act.

Mac,

We are talking past each other. And remarkably, not in much disagreement, I think.

I believe that it is indisputable that when one is discussing stopping rifles one is dicussing elephant rifles. This is glaringly apparent when reading Taylor, Nychens or any other writers' works. And your previous post more than supports the proposition when you note the notorious diffculty in stopping buff without a brain shot or spine shot, assigned by the concensus of more than a century of history.

Likewise lion or leopard, but with the noted chink in their systems which make them succeptible to velocity induced shock. None of the NE's provide he velocity generally thought required to turn out a cat's lights.

Remove stopping elephants from the equation, and I think the world of the 450/400's as a buff cartridge. I know that a 450 class rifle is more than enough for killing buff and a howitzer not enough to reliably stop one, so there is little, if anything, gained beyond the 450/400, imo.

That still doesn't make the 450/400 a stopping rifle, using that indisputable definition!

There remains the problem that, with little exception, where there are buff to hunt there are elephants to give trouble. One may encounter trouble even while seeking to avoid it, though it becomes ever more likely when chasing it.

So we have what some claim to be a great all arounder that is best limited to one member of the big five and while certainly sufficient for all other game, leaves a lot to be desired in the trajectory department, and we have, for roughly the same investment or cost, a wide selection of big bore NE rifles that are actually more versitile for the big five and which provide the same less than ideal trajectory. Give me the ral all rounder, the 450NE!

You are mistaken when you conclude that my love for elephant hunting leads to the exclusion of the enjoyment of hunting other game. I thouroughly enjoy hunting most all game, from doves or sand grouse to ducks and geese from deer locally to bushbuck to buff. But I reserve most of my African hunting time and other resources for elephant hunting.

When writing of paper, I was of course referring to target paper, and you know that! I totally disagree that one cannot assess the likely performance of a cartridge by studying what is written about it. When it comes to learning from others, I am always willing. PH's are but one source. Hunters another. Thankfully there are many, many African hands who wrote of their exploration, their hunts and their rifles, from the black powder muzzle loader days through the revolution that cordite represented through modern bullets that perform. I have read much on the topics, and gleaned something from most all works, including in some cases what not to do or use.

I apply, or try to, what I've learned through reading and research. Not everything pans out, but most of those old but tried and true concensus opinions formed over the last century and more from the advent of cordite prove well founded. Here is an example of a widely help a often restated "rule" that proved untrue: "You cannot run from an elephant and so must hold your ground and shoot it out." Not true, running from irritated and even charging elephants is a highly effective wat to avoid shooting elephants you are not hunting while preserving your skin! 500 Grains noted the same disconnect. My own experience with the 458wm would be another example, but that is because the majority of nay sayers compare apples to oranges, giving, for example, the 450NE credit for greater performance when in fact the 458wm, loaded judiciously provides a significant edge.

Now lets try that turnabout again. Just how many buff have you shot? And how many with the 450/400? I suspect the answer would reveal that much of your opinion, even regarding your venerable 450/400, will be found in the written word or the hearsay of hand me down tales, and with less diligence in testing those opinions.

With regard to your claim that the 450/400's capabilities missed a half century of exposure because of ammunition problems, and so are somehow unknown or under exposed except to you all anointed blowhards, well that just is not so! The 450/400's sister, the 404J was going strong all along, providing performance all but equal, perhaps a tad better because of its greater diameter bullet, and it proved no stopper either with its vintage performance!

On the other hand, the 450NE's, the 476WR, the 475NE, the 500NE etc, etc, etc, all faced the same ammunition issues and their performance was never lost or overlooked or undervalued as you claim ocurred with the 450/400's. In fact many of those went by the wayside long before the 450/400's and long before Federal rescued the 470 and all NE's.

The one thing that I can count on is that the fellow with a 450/400 in his hands when he's praying that the elephant is bluffing, will be the same fellow wishing he had a big bore!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Mac,


With regard to your claim that the 450/400's capabilities missed a half century of exposure because of ammunition problems, and so are somehow unknown or under exposed except to you all anointed blowhards,



JPK

Very good form! You may do as it suits you, and please skip over any of my posts in future! I'll be happy to do the same for you Sir!

Mac,

I see your selective outrage enjoys an inverse relationship with your sense of humor, which appears to parallel the satus of your argument regarding the 450/400.

Why no feigned outrage over my previuos references to blowhards and coolaid drinkers, and even to the similarities between the arguments for the 450/400 and 45/70, eh?

I've had no input into the historical consensus regarding the performance of the 450/400's, or the sister 404J, why the outrage for pointing it out and putting it in constrast with the current overly wishful thinking?

See my earlier references below, two post ago.

From Webster-Merrium Dictionary: Blowhard = windbag, an exhaustively talkative person... Seems to fit the 450/400 clique well, as opposed to those who actually goe and do what thye are talking about.

JPK

quote:

What I am hard on is the bunch of blowhards that have little or no experience with dangerous game and particularly elephants who constantly blow sunshine up each others' skirts regarding peformance and reputation the 450/400 never has had and like to play pretend, in so far as the cartridge as a big bore stopper.

I respect those who choose the 450/400 for whatever reason they may have, so long as either they have the experience to earn the respect or do not join in the blowhard make believe. I see little difference between the 450/400 blowhards and the 45/70 blowhards. Each are trying to make their favorite into something it is not. While the 45/70 blowhards sing a chorus of "Its suitable for killing dangerous game," the 450/400 blowhards sing the chorus, "Its a stopper, its a stopper." While each has done what its coolaid drinkers claim, neither is what its clique claims.

MacD37 and JPK - I absolutely love your guys bantering on the subject of the Big Bores!! It's obvious you both know so much more than most of us here? Keep up the good efforts as I am learning a great deal from the both of you. Carry on gents.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Reasonable Exothermic Discourse..
AK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Mac,

I see your selective outrage enjoys an inverse relationship with your sense of humor, which appears to parallel the satus of your argument regarding the 450/400.

Why no feigned outrage over my previuos references to blowhards and coolaid drinkers, and even to the similarities between the arguments for the 450/400 and 45/70, eh?

I've had no input into the historical consensus regarding the performance of the 450/400's, or the sister 404J, why the outrage for pointing it out and putting it in constrast with the current overly wishful thinking?

See my earlier references below, two post ago.

From Webster-Merrium Dictionary: Blowhard = windbag, an exhaustively talkative person... Seems to fit the 450/400 clique well, as opposed to those who actually goe and do what thye are talking about.

JPK

]

quote:

With regard to your claim that the 450/400's capabilities missed a half century of exposure because of ammunition problems, and so are somehow unknown or under exposed except to YOU all anointed blowhards,

The Key word "YOU' in that post was the one word preceding the slur, that was absent in the earlier posts! In any event, you know, "Straw, and Camel's back" ...........

I will discuss nothing else with you!

Oh, please, don't make believe that you are not a leading member of the crew that repeats, ad nauseum, your overly optomistic and inflated assessment of the historical record of 450/400 performance and its relevance as a stpping cartridge!

JPK

JPK:

PM sent.

Dave

the 375Fl is a great choice, especially with a low magnification scope on it. I would be happier with a .500NE 3" for the other set of barrels myself.
Either way, that is one beautiful rifle. Butch does very nice work.

Rich
Buff Killer

JPK,

Must say that I'm shocked and disappointed in many of your responses...

I understand the theory behind your statements but can't tolerate your total and absolute disregard for the TRUTH......

It is "KoolAid"......not coolaid

PS. Your 45/70 vs 450/400 comp is right on

450/400 works for me x 4 on elephant including a full blown charge. Sure is a lot easier to hit with than the 470 and up crowd and something that is over looked is that the second shot is much faster. The other side of the coin is that with a scoped 400 in hand you can do well with anything that you run into.
Each to his own tho it's all psychology anyway. If the only thing I was hunting was elephants I'd just use my old 577 greener. Why? Does it kill any better. I doubt it but being a timid sort I just feel better with it in my hands when I'm fooling around with those big grey things. At the end of the day with the 577 my whity tighties tend to be a little cleaner.

A little bit off the subject but is the .500/.416 considered a "stopping" cartirdge?

Guess what I just bought this week?!!

Well....It must not be a stopping rifle, but She'll stop you in yer tracks when you see her!!

A 450/400

quote:

Originally posted by Shawn Massey:
Guess what I just bought this week?!!

Well....It must not be a stopping rifle, but She'll stop you in yer tracks when you see her!!

A 450/400

I'd be willing to bet that SUBSTATIALLY more hunters and members of this forum would successfully "stop" a charge while shooting something in the 450/400-416 class of cartridge than anything bigger. Why??...because they're EASIER TO HANDLE AND SHOOT. So a 450/400 or 416 2" from the brain is better than a 500 6" or more away....and a 450/400-416 INTO the brain is better than a 500 NEAR the brain.

The 450/400-416 class ain't a pu$$y round boys....

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Garby,

I would bet that if we polled members who have stopped charges in real life, and there are a few, the overwhelming majority would have used a big bore.

BTW, I got a chuckle out of the presumption that someone who can't shoot well with a big bore can magically shoot a 450/400. Just what is it that makes you think that if you can't shoot with a stopping rifle, you can somehow magically shoot a 450/400? Or answer this, if you can shoot a 450/400 rifle, why can't you shoot with a big bore?

And I gotta say that an overweight, 10lb or so 450/400 is not going to be easier to handle than a 10lb or so stopping rifle. No easier to shoot either, if you've done the shooting here that you should before you go on safari.

I've never said that the 450/400 or the 416's are "pussy rounds", just that they have never been and are not currently considered and are not stopping rifles.

BTW, there is a HUGE and significant difference between the 450/400's and the 416's. Enough that they shouldn't be grouped together, imo. The 450/400's produce energy right in the neighborhood of the 375H&H, while the 416's produce energy in the neighborhood of the 450NE's. But the 416's just don't have the bullet diameter and weight to make the stopping rifle grade (those who doubt me, I'll again refer to Buzz Charlton's first DVD - and Buzz has used a 416 for a long time.) I do wonder if the 416's shooting 450gr bullets will prove to be stoppers.

I'll repeat a passage from earlier posts, I think it makes the point and puts the "don't use a stopping rifle, but just don't miss with a lesser rifle" BS to rest:

"However, no matter how great your ability, you will never be infallible.

The world champion shooters are determined in competitions in which the second best shooter in the world misses once more that the champion misses.

Moreover, you may not enjoy the opportunity to make a successful brain shot for a number of reasons, including angle, thickness of the bush, distance and time.

Why, if you've got the choice, go in with less than a full hand? A full hand includes a stopping rifle in this situation."

JPK

JPK, cannot dispute most of what you say....however, having fired guns from a 22 up to a 460 Weatherbeast, I can say that a 450/400 will be easier to handle than a 500 up. I have fired the 450 3.25 next to my 450/400 and the "smaller" round is easier on the shoulder and MAY be a touch quicker for the 2nd shot. I don't know of anyone that hunts DG w/o a qualified PH by his/her side and the "stopping" rifle is generally in their hands. I must admit that I would feel better with my PH toting a 470-500 class or more when hunting elephant, in particular. I do think, however, for the stateside hunter heading to Africa for DG that a 450/400 up would be a very good choice. IF...and I say IF.. that hunter is experienced with handling a 500 or so....all the better...the results on impact speak for themselves. I also agree that a 416 bullet moving in the 500/416 or 416 Rigby/Rem range will give more noticable results than a 450/400 at 2100 or so....especially on cats. I personally plan on taking my 500 Jeff Heym bolt trash for elephant in 2010....because I shoot that piece of iron as good as anything I own...and I know that gun has got some punch.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Garby,

I think the 450/400 is a great choice for a cartridge for a fellow who is going to go on a safari or two or three... and who will be doing a limited amount of elephant hunting and a lot of buff hunting.

While you can always run into grumpy elephants at close range, it becomes a hell of a lot more frequent when you are chasing them.

I think the equation calls for a big bore when you do a lot of elephant hunting because while a priori probability proves that you can have a serious run in on the first hunt, it also proves that your odds multiply the more you hunt. Also, the more you hunt elephants the closer you end up wanting to approach, at least this has been the case with me and several hunters I know.

Personally, I do not think that relying on the PH to either stop an elephant or even be in a position to stop and elephants is prudent. He is no less infallible than I am, and things happen fast in the thick stuff when they go to hell. We were charged by a bull once that broke through thick bush at top speed at seven or eight yards. We heard him coming, though we thought he was going to go passt us. It happened beyond very quickly. It took three big bore rounds to stop that bull, none were fatal, but he turned at the third, may have been turning at the second, wasn't turning at the first for sure. Neither I nor the PH were trying to miss the brain shot, but there was little time to do more than get the rifle "on target" best possible - no looking for zygomatic arches or ear funnels or head attitude, which was changing very rapidly as he turned to us and dropped his head to kill one of us. To me this goes to show that it is better to be carrying the big bore.

Yes, bigger is better. More practice is better. I've gone over after having had to stiff arm my way out of the office, and with time and duties leading less than adequate practice and I've shot less well than when I've been able to dedicate the required time. I vowed never to do it again.

I don't believe that up through the 450/470 class that a second shot is any slower than with a 375 or 450/400. Unlike in practice, there is near zero felt recoil. Just enough to inform you that the rifle fired, at least for me. Referring to Boddington's DVD on buff, there is a scene where Andrew Dawson stops a charging bull. He misses the brain shot with his 470 and follows up with his second barrel. You will see no muzzle rise, no rock and roll from recoil. This is typical in my experience. If I can ever figure out how, I'll post some clips of my shots on eles and like the Boddington video, the is no muzzle rise - unlike when rocking and rolling to recoil in praactice - and an immeadiatly ready second shot. There is a clip from the video of my last hunt, which I haven't received yet, but watched before I left Zim, where I brained a bull and while the bulls head was raising, as they do when brained - rear colapse, head rises then front collapses and head comes down fast - I put a second shot into his chest which exited between his shoulder blades. Couldn't have done two perfect shots that fast shooting at paper!

Here is a quote I just ran across, from another thread on the African Hunting forum, that supports the notion that the 450/400 might be considered a stopper. I will have to reread Harlands books. With his incredibly extensive elephant experience, you can't discount his thinking:

"I'm probably going to start something here, but I've found the general consensus to be that the 416 Rigby is a stopper. I don't think anybody has more experience on elephant than Richard Harland. And, to quote from his book Ndlovu:

quote:
Large Bore Calibres

This arbitrary grouping covers a broad spread of mathematical performances as measured by Muzzle Energy, a correlation of bullet weight and bullet velocity. From the .400 and .404 using 400gr bullets at around 2125fps (ME 4000ft.lbs), up to the .500s with 500gr-plus missiles at over 2100fps developing a hefty 5000-6800ft.lbs ME, the common denominator is their ability to deal with elephants under all conditions. (pp71)"

Here is another quote on the same thread regarding the 416's:

"Stoppers are generally regarded as having 5000 ft-lbs of energy and a bullet of at least 400 grs. Taylor wrote of this 60 or 70 years ago and ain't nothing changed since. Except for the perpetual new crop of non-believers!"

Food for thought.

500 Grains used a 505 Gibbs and killed three or four elephants with it. Stopped two charges with it as well. He reported fantastic performance. I'm sure your 500 Jeffery will also provide fantastic performance.


JPK

I just read your post on the Searcy service thread and was reminded that you own a 450NE 3 1/4". Why in the world wouldn't you use that perfect rifle for your elephant hunt?

Clue me in on your thinking, because with that perfect 450NE option, I wouldn't consider another rifle!

JPK

quote:

I think the 450/400 is a great choice for a cartridge for a fellow who is going to go on a safari or two or three... and who will be doing a limited amount of elephant hunting and a lot of buff hunting.

Just more

You do love to see your post count go up!

When you are facing one or more pissed off elephants you will not wish you had chosen a lighter caliber. Hunting in more open country or chasing the one bull of a lifetime may be different scenarios.

Clearly you can kill an elephant with a .375 and up but the bigger bores give a little more security.

Read Will's story about the cow that would not be turned after several very near frontal shots. Gives you pause.

450-400's are fine rifles and will do it all, but if you are elephant addicted and in particular chasing tuskless or are otherwise in a lot of herd situations in close in thick jesse you might decide to go to a heavier one after a bit.

I am just a novice here but never thought my .458 WM was too big while in Zim.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
You do love to see your post count go up!

Hmmm, lets see. You have been registered since June, 2000 and have been a member for eight years nine months. I have been registered since November, 2004 and have been a member for 4 years and four months. You have a few less than twice as many posts as I have. You average 618 post/year, I average 656 post/year. But then I actually use my double rifle on the game, particularly that game being discussed, and post hunting reports, while you, ah..., do not.

What a hypocrite.

JPK

quote:

Hmmm, lets see. You have been registered since June, 2000 and have been a member for eight years nine months. I have been registered since November, 2004 and have been a member for 4 years and four months. You have a few less than twice as many posts as I have. You average 618 post/year, I average 656 post/year. But then I actually use my double rifle on the game, particularly that game being discussed, and post hunting reports, while you, ah..., do not.

Apparently this doesn't keep you from posting