That model 21 does not have Chopper Lump barrels. Just as their ad states, they are mechanically joined, not brazed.

If I understand correctly they are Chopper Lump and they have been joined mechanically.I think Chopper Lump refers to the one piece integral barrel and lever.

Shootaway, the Model 21 Win has what is called the "demi-bloc".

It's a development of chopper lump with the lumps joined together by a vertical dove-tail. That's where your "mechanically joined" comes in. That's what that ad you showed is talking about.

I know. I've got one.

The M21 was also always known for being somewhat over-engineered, which I find a good thing. On paper, I would imagine the demi-bloc design is stronger than ordinary chopper lump, though in practice it wouldn't matter.

And, a personal opinion - as I have a great fondness for fine guns, I can't see being without a grand ole Model 21.

Shack,do you like that system on your Win.mod.21? Do you find anything to benefit from it-does it function better than some other method you tried like monobloc or shoelump? What do you like about it?

Functionally, zero difference (and I won't confuse you by adding to the mix "through-lump" as used on economy shotguns). But, the demi-bloc simply added allure, mystique and class to what esthetically was already the most desirable shotgun ever produced in the US.

I would rather own it than any English made double ever built (aside of course from the obvious financial considerations - if I was given an H&H Royal I would promptly put it up for sale, and use the proceeds to buy another farm to hunt on plus another M21 - not to mention another pre-64 Super Grade - but that's all a horse of a different color).

Anyway, if "demi-bloc" is too cryptic for you, just refer to it as "chopper/dovetail". Same animal.

So,you are saying that they build it for aesthetics alone.

No, of course not. I just told you it was over-engineered. Sales probably had something to do with it. And desire to build the best for its own sake. Is that not enuf?

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
And desire to build the best for its own sake.

What a lost concept that is these days. Pity.

the barrels on a 21 each have a chopperlump lug which is dovetailed into the opposing lug then brazed to each other.

Shack
Boy, I have to disagree with your comment on English guns. The Model 21 feels like a club compared to a Boss or a Purdey. Not sure what your criteria is but it surely cannot be handling. The 21 feels like a heavy German gun.
Just my opinion
JZ

On a 21, does one of the barrels have the male dovetail that mates with the female cut in the other barrel's lump or do both barrels have a female groove and a bowtie peice inserted to join them together?

We're all digressing a good bit from whatever is the purpose of this thread, if any, but for the lumps on the M21 here's the explanation with a diagram of where everything is (skip on down to it) - http://www.hallowellco.com/lumps.htm. Still more explanation is found here - http://www.shotgunworld.com/bb...ewtopic.php?t=103345

As far as the Model 21's handling, I consider it "adequate" as I've certainly busted a lot of skeet targets and feathered game with it over many decades. But I grant you it's not the custom fitted stock (mine's a little short for me), and trim lines of an English double and lacks the splinter forearm and straight stock and double triggers (at least on most examples). And I have shot those other kinds of guns. But I grew up shooting U.S. style guns and am used to their feel and look and can hit stuff with them. The Model 21 just happens to be the finest and most desired and sought after example of that particular take on weaponry.

If I was comparing it to the car world, I'd call it "why I prefer a 1965 Pontiac GTO to a 1965 XKE Jaguar". Maybe that explains it.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Purdey uses chopper lump. I think chopper lump would be regarded as the mark of a best gun. Shoe lump is likewise found on many English guns. Not so much monoblock. Monoblock is certainly functional, just not the pinnacle of the double gunmaker's art.

The above is absolutely true! The chopper lump is REGARDED as the best where double rifles are concerned. Having said that, what folks regard as best sets the price, but that doesn’t mean it is any better than other methods of joining barrels. The actual quality is in how well any of them are done. Where function is concerned that depends also on how well the job was done regardless of the physical method of joining.

Then we come down to strength of one type over another, all, if properly done, are at least adequate for the purpose.

#1
[IMG]http://www.hallowellco.com/Burrard-Chopper-lump-forgin.jpg[/JPG]

The chopper lump barrels have half the steel of the total lumps as part of each barrel, then the two barrels, at the breech, are brazed together, before the lumps and barrels are fitted to the action. This is what is considered as the BEST by the trade, and will absolutely add thousands to the price asked for the rifle.

#2

Next down the list is the Shoe lump, which is a four piece set, the two barrels, the shoe, which including the lumps, and a solid top rib butt. These are wired together and brazed together before fitting to the action. The shoe-lump barrels are the most common method today, in NEW quality double rifles until you get into the ultra priced brands.
There is nothing wrong with this type of barrel set as long as it is done properly.

#3


The Dovetail method is the oldest method joining breach loading double rifles. There are many examples of this type of joining in almost every brand name in vintage double rifles. These rifles have been around for a very long time, and I have never seen an example that failed because of the method of joining! I have a Westley Richards 500-450#1 Express double rifle that is 122 years old and is as solid as it was the day it came off the makers bench.


#4

Then we come to the Mono-block method which has become the undeserved bastard of double rifle making in the opinion of most so-called purest. Actually it is among the strongest of joining methods.

This method is partially derived from bolt rifle technology as the barrels, in properly made double rifles are threaded into the solid breach that is one solid piece of steel like the receiver of a bolt rifle. I don’t believe you will ever see a mono-block barrel set fail because of the method of joining.

The oversized picture doesn’t show the threaded section that is used with double rifles. The example shown is the way the monoblock is used in shotguns and is soft soldered in the block in most cases. In a double rifle about one inch of the barrel shank near the muzzle end of the shank is threaded, and the rest is press fitted to the monobock receiver. This is very strong and is only noticeable by the joint line where th a barrel meets the front of the monoblock. In Searcy rifles the line at that joint is almost invisible, while this is usually hidden by engraving around the barrel, and monoblock joint.

The price will be higher in order of the numbers listed if all else is equally well fitted for the collector. However if one is looking for a serviceable and dependable double rifle the method of joining, if properly done, will make absolutely no difference in practical terms.
....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
On a 21, does one of the barrels have the male dovetail that mates with the female cut in the other barrel's lump or do both barrels have a female groove and a bowtie peice inserted to join them together?

here is the dovetail on a mod 21!

Mac,

I have seen "invisible sleeving" on English shotguns where the joint was welded and then ground down, and but for the re-proof marks showing the barrels were sleeved you could not determine the barrels were sleeved.

Gunmaker/restorer John Foster in England specializes in it.

I wonder if it would work for a DR, or if perhaps the welding would be unsuitable for a DR?

JPK

Boy, once we got past the pi..ing this is good stuff!
I need to save it somewhere.
Peter.

For all. You never know the interesting things you'll learn from a message thread on the double forum.

I just got out my Model 21 to see if I could spot any signs of the chopper lump division point. Of course I couldn't. But...I did find something else.

A few small spots of rust.

They were not in areas usually seen.

And I would NEVER have known but for this discussion.

Now, given that it's in the nature of rust to spread, where's that WD 40. Then I'll hit it with a good lube. Probably either the TW25-B or the FP-10. But something's got to be done now that the alarm bells are going off.

Incidentally, I looked at a Parker and an A.H. Fox also, but they're of a different design. They're not chopper/dovetail it appears. But they are what I regard as the next two most desirable of U.S. collectible shotguns (and no rust there).

Carry on...

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Now, given that it's in the nature of rust to spread, where's that WD 40.

Carry on...

Now to totally derail the discussion but further enhance it I read on here somewhere that WD-40 is bad news on soldered guns such as doubles.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
That model 21 does not have Chopper Lump barrels. Just as their ad states, they are mechanically joined, not brazed.

despite being mechanically[dovetail]joined rather than brazed,they are still chopper-lump.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
the Model 21 Win has what is called the "demi-bloc"
It's a development of chopper lump with the lumps joined together by a vertical dove-tail.

yet, numerous respected makers in Great Britain and Europe use 'demi-bloc' to describe their products brazed/non dovetailed
chopper-lump construction.

...Just goes to show that even what consumers can tend to trust as somewhat authoritive sources, can still be inaccurate.

quote:

despite being mechanically[dovetail]joined rather than brazed,they are still chopper-lump.

I see that now. And I see that one barrel does have the male part of the dovetail as part of the barrel steel itself. I see zig-zag of the dovetail in the picture of the barrel flats by the rear screw but was tricked by the lines that look like joints out on the barrel flats lateral to the lumps.
Now, not to start a thread within a thread, but what do those screws do? Maybe parts of the ejector setup?

quote:

despite being mechanically[dovetail]joined rather than brazed,they are still chopper-lump.

I believe you will find the chopperlumps on the 21 are also brazed, or soldered in addition to being vertically dovetailed. The vertical dovetailed chopperlumps are ,IMO, superior to the horizontal dovetail in other types of lumps or just brazed chopperlumps without a dovetail.
...................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I believe you will find the chopperlumps on the 21 are also brazed, or soldered in addition to being vertically dovetailed.

Like I said NO brazing,..the Win. M21 avoided brazing by primarily using a dovetail, further locked together by a screw.
Soft solder was then just put for additional security.
Winchester used the combined dovetail/screw/soft solder method, to avoid the risk of any negative annealing effect
that the heat from brazing might have on the barrel steel.

Chopper-lump put together in the Demi-bloc method was not exclusive to Win. M21, it was used by others also, including BSA which had
vertical dovetail that was then pinned.


Heres the Frank Burton Patent Winchester used. ...

However the DB method originated and was employed in European firearm construction some decades earlier.

The bottom line here is:

Am M21 without soft solder will still functionally hold the barrels together for firing via the dovetail
A more ordinary non-dovetail chopper lump is totally non functional without brazing.

It could be that the heat caused by blazing is something to avoid.

Quote from Mac:

"The actual quality is in how well any of them are done."

This is the best statement made in this whole discussion.

Almost any design will do fine IF it's done to completion in a competent manner.

..sometime I'll tell you about that good looking Spanish made double shotgun that you couldn't even chamber a shell in one barrel...

[/QUOTE]In Searcy rifles the line at that joint is almost invisible, while this is usually hidden by engraving around the barrel, and monoblock joint.[/QUOTE]

Some yes, but few in my opinion. Many Searcy examples that I have handled the joint is glaring. Simple example is look at the photo that is in all of Shootaways posts. Even in his low resolution photo the joint is extremely easy to see.

Hello

These are monobloced by a competent smith.



Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Hello

These are monobloced by a competent smith.



Nitro

That looks like a great clean joint. I was not saying that it can't be done. I was just in disagreement on the Searcy comment. And I am not saying that Searcy can't do a good job. Just saying many that I have handled are not nearly as clean as your joint appears.

A little M21 eye candy - http://www.bing.com/images/sea...14EBA7E8&FORM=IQFRBA

Note the barrels before they are joined, showing the chopper lumps.

There are two screws, one horizontal, one vertical on the lower or "chopper" portion.

The chopper/dovetail design would no doubt make for a great double rifle conversion.

Shack,this is not a thread about the M21 shotgun.It is about CL barrels.

Well it didn't even start about chopper lump barrels but that doesn't matter anyway

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Shack,this is not a thread about the M21 shotgun.It is about CL barrels.

Firstly, I see no mention of Chopper-lump in your thread title or opening post.

Secondly, you say its not about the M21, but you yourself have posted pictures of the M21.

Have read this thread with interest, but you have all missed the obvious. The English gun will the makers name engraved neatly on the rib, with proof marks, load etc on the flats.

The foreign gun will a have long roll stamped diatribe about warnings and reading owners manual before use all along the barrels. Oh and will include a couple of Torx screw heads in the middle of the engraving.

And on the price tag, the price of the English gun won't disturb those who can afford them - they are reassuringly expensive.

Other than that not a lot of difference.

It is true that we can not ignore English built quality.It seems true however that the desire to build such rifles is almost gone.There are still craftsmen that can build such a thing, maybe not under a single roof but I believe they are out there.
I have a pair of English shoes and I would prefer them over 10 pairs of others at half the price.

There does seem to be a growing number of gunsmiths who can build good rifles in the UK. Many are not big names, and many haven't come through a traditional 20 years slaving over a piece of steel with a nail file apprenticeship route, rather are experienced engineers and others coming to it later in life - had enough of the rat race.

We do struggle in the local market with restrictions on holding firearms, but deer stalking / eating wild food has become very popular so that is fuelling this demand. Some are affordable, others eye wateringly expensive.

I need to enlighten Nitro450exp and McKay. The competent gunsmith that did the work on Nitro’s rifle was trained in my shop and he is probably the one that preformed the work on the inexpensive rifles that you are being critical of. He worked for me from about 2003 to 2008. He, as you said is a very competent gunsmith and I agree 100%. In fact he is the only one I would feel comfortable working on any of my rifles or anyone else’s. Just a reminder, quality comes with a higher price tag.

Butch,what do you think of Chopper Lump barrels? Do they offer any advantages over the other methods?

Butch

I know the smiths history.
I was not piling on the criticism band wagon.
I was just showing a very good example of a seamless monobloc and paying the smith a compliment.

If I came across as critical of your guns it was not my intent, for that I apologize.

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It is true that we can not ignore English built quality.
I have a pair of English shoes and I would prefer them over 10 pairs of others at half the price.

What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For two years you have been writing the English doubles are "garbage." Why the change.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It is true that we can not ignore English built quality.
I have a pair of English shoes and I would prefer them over 10 pairs of others at half the price.

My shoemaker is just down the road from me, he did his time at the prestigious Lobbs of London bespoke shoes makers.
(Lobbs formal mens shoes start at around, 4000 British Pounds sterling)
Now in his own shop/operation, he makes shoes to the exact same style,quality and construction, at a fraction of the price.
And Im actually face on with the actual craftsman making the shoe.
(nor do I fancy paying thousands more, just to have 'Lobbs' marked on the exact same shoe)

Prior to that, I purchased more ordinary off the shelf British 'Churches' at around $800 pair,
nothing really special in them though, Id never buy them again, since I can get an equal/or better off the shelf shoe, for much less.

Most of the bespoke British made stuff,(guns, shoes or otherwise), are priced according to their image & brand power.
Same with Rolex, if they did not have such brand power, they would be a $3000 dive watch, not a $10,000+ dive watch.
The esteemed British Aston Martin?...people pay hundreds of thousands $$$, for something powered by Ford....

quote:

Originally posted by BLS:
I need to enlighten Nitro450exp and McKay. The competent gunsmith that did the work on Nitro’s rifle was trained in my shop and he is probably the one that preformed the work on the inexpensive rifles that you are being critical of. He worked for me from about 2003 to 2008. He, as you said is a very competent gunsmith and I agree 100%. In fact he is the only one I would feel comfortable working on any of my rifles or anyone else’s. Just a reminder, quality comes with a higher price tag.

Nowhere did I say your smith was not competent. I understand that shootaways gun is a field grade and is produced to compete in the lower end double market. I have also handled quite a few of your classics, and the joint was clearly visible on some of them as well. (Not as noticeable as the field grades I have handled.)

What I was trying to say in my post is that I was in complete disagreement with MacD37 post.

{Quote}
In Searcy rifles the line at that joint is almost invisible.
{Quote}

That is a false statement and I was just pointing that out as a lot of the forum members use this site for research on purchasing their next or first double.