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Attention all rifle craftsmen.Your work can surpass any rifle built anytime-IMO!

Monoblock barrels would be a clue . . .

Shootaway, I'm repeating myself but all you have to do is look at that faint vertical line on the barrels, just west of the breeches, plus compare the positioning of the hardware on the side to a Searcy. Exact match. The second isn't.

Btw, did you do your homework and come up with that specific list of "BS" on Taylor's part??

..looks like we're back to square one doesn't it...

I am not certain, but my guess is that the second rifle has been restocked, and not in England.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Monoblock barrels would be a clue . . .

So would the more forward location of the rear express sight...

I also think the English rifle was restocked in the US.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Monoblock barrels would be a clue . . .

Good eyes, Mike.
I believe they are both Baikal, one in .30-06, and the other in .45-70.
Seriously, it is almost impossible to hide the mono block line, although some do it far better than others and many hide it behind some cheap engraving.
Cal

If George would buy your book he could learn about what monoblock barrels are . . .

I doubt that.

The book isn't written in Crayon!

Monoblock barrels - A method of building a pair of barrels where the entire breech end of both barrels and the lumps together are machined from one solid piece of steel. The barrel tubes are then fitted separately into this monoblock and the ribs attached. Often identifiable by a distinctive ring around the barrels about three inches in front of the breech end. The favored jointing method of the Beretta company.

Good job, you found Hallowell's site.

Gents:
Morris' definitions are on Griffin and Howe's site. With permission from both, I used them, reworded some, added 50% more, used new photos from the Dave Peterson collection, and are in chapter two of my new book. The definitions are limited only to double rifles.
Cheers,
Cal
PS. Mike, has the book arrived?

I was just wondering if Butch`s Barrels are monoblock and if they are not what are they? Perhaps someone could explain or further educate(not Cal)us all.

Shooter, one of us has already said or at least implied twice that they are. Re-read your cut and paste definition, then look at your gun.

How are you coming along on those Taylor examples?

So if I understand correctly the Searcy has monoblock barrels what about the other?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
So if I understand correctly the Searcy has monoblock barrels what about the other?

The Westley is either a shoe lump or a dovetail lump. Nothing wrong with either method.
Looks for sure like a shoe lump and, really, now that I think of it, I don't know if any maker made a shoe with the lumps dovetailed into it. (?)

Purdey uses chopper lump. I think chopper lump would be regarded as the mark of a best gun. Shoe lump is likewise found on many English guns. Not so much monoblock. Monoblock is certainly functional, just not the pinnacle of the double gunmaker's art.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mike, has the book arrived?

Yes Cal, got it a couple of days ago. Have already spent several hours flipping through it. Very nicely done. Lots of good information in it for folks that are not quite as knowledgeable as George.

I read before of chopper lump and seen pictures.I was not familiar with monoblock barrels.It is nice to do a google search and compare shoelump,monobloc,and dovetail lump.Thanks to those who responded and shed some light on this for myself and possibly others.I wonder if Butch has built any doubles with chopper lump barrels for his customers.

Ask him.

George:
In my book I have drawings of the lump designs.
Cal

Where do I buy this book you speak of?

Could that bottom rifle be a VC round body action ????

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:
Where do I buy this book you speak of?

Woodhits:
PM me for details or email me at <pappas@mtaonline.net>
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Could that bottom rifle be a VC round body action ????

The detail on the side doesn't match up to a VC.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If George would buy your book he could learn about what monoblock barrels are . . .

I would consider paying for Shootaway's book from Cal just to be able to read the inscription.

Jim

I will pass.I don`t want it even for free.What does Cal know about doubles,shooting or hunting? Get serious!

Like I said, the shtick is getting old and much too predictable. Go spend some time outside in the sunshine eating sunflower seeds and thinking positive thoughts and see if you can come up with something a little more original.

Speaking of positive thoughts, mine are improving a little every day.How are yours doing,Mike?

Am I allowed to ask why the standard of discourse on this topic seems akin to the PF? Are we not better than that?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I will pass.I don`t want it even for free.What does Cal know about doubles,shooting or hunting? Get serious!

I'm sure with this review, my sales will decline.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I will pass.I don`t want it even for free.What does Cal know about doubles,shooting or hunting? Get serious!

Hi Again Cal, It's Gary one more time. I had time last night to read and go through your new book. You have hit another Home Run here! My letter grade for this new book is an A+! The same grade I gave your 2 other books, The .600 Nitro Express and The British Bore Rifle. I would sum up the new book, The Double Rifle Primer as follows: Compared to The Hammerless Double Rifle Book by Alexander Gray, your book is like being on steroids times 10 in originality and fun factor reading. Gray's book is too technical and not a smooth read. You balance your book with just the right amount of data and color pictures to keep the reader interested as he goes through it page by page. Your book is fun to read, and Gray's book is work to read. I'll take fun over work any day! You also did a fine job on the Cartridge and Ammo chapter in this book. I want to thank you personally, for showing all the original Kynoch ammo boxes and not this new junk by Kynamco. Old, original, and nostalgic is what it's all about in the guns and ammo here. I'm so glad to see that you feel the same way too. Your new book will reside on the very top shelf of my bookcase, were all my very favorite books are kept. All I can say is, Great Job Cal! My money was very well spent here.

Many Thanks!

Gary
Gents:
The above is one of the many positive comments I've received this week on my new book. Many have been posted here on AR.
I'd like to get these two different views into a debate. It would be interesting to see two very respected and opinionated gentlemen discuss my knowledge (or lack thereof) on double rifles.
Life here on AR is another day in paradise.
Cheers, all.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Monoblock barrels -.... The favored jointing method of the Beretta company.

Anyone who can afford a Beretta(A&S) 455 Express, will get chopper-lump not mono-block.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I wonder if Butch has built any doubles with chopper lump barrels for his customers.

He offers the option, at a price of course.

...and i seriously doubt that it would be his first experimental prototype attempt at building a CL feature rifle,
should you order with that specification.

I wonder if anyone can explain the functional benefits of chopper lump barrels?

Lighter, stronger, trimmer than other jointing methods.

JPK

Just to clear things up here, that rifle is with my components but a few members of the guild put that rifle together. The barreled action was furnished in a very rough stage and some very good craftsmen shaped, stocked, and engraved it. This was a guild rifle project and few years ago. They did a very nice job I think.
As to the chopper barrels yes I've made a few. and currently I have a 470NE sidelock on order, and a 700 H&H Rising Bite both with chopper barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Lighter, stronger, trimmer than other jointing methods.

JPK

Not sure I would agree that they are any lighter, stronger or more trim than other barreling methods.
Each individual barrel may be inherently stronger since the barrel and half of the lump are of the same forging, but the soldered surface area between the barrels is probably similar to a machined monoblock.
Of course, if you are talking of using a shotgun breech as the monoblock rather than a solid machined monoblock, you most likely do lose some ultimate strength but if the joining is done properly, still quite strong enough for the purpose.
For sure, the attention to machining and fitting a chopper lump is higher simply because mistakes are more costly if you bugger up a chopper lump.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I wonder if anyone can explain the functional benefits of chopper lump barrels?

I thought you knew everything?
Cal

quote:

.. functional benefits of chopper lump barrels?

CL method allows the bore centrelines of the two barrels to be positioned closer together.
In effect it can make for a trimmer & lighter weight firearm.
Chopper-lump offers a person xtra-bragging rights because of the cost/prestige associated e.g.;
Purdey,H&H,H&W,WR,Boss,etc.........however be aware that one can buy a pre-owned
Browning/Miroku H&H pattern SxS sidelock-chopperlump 12ga , for around $5k.
...


yet another version/variation of the chopper-lump design ,..is the dovetailed chopper-lump.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Lighter, stronger, trimmer than other jointing methods.

JPK

Not sure I would agree that they are any lighter, stronger or more trim than other barreling methods.
Each individual barrel may be inherently stronger since the barrel and half of the lump are of the same forging, but the soldered surface area between the barrels is probably similar to a machined monoblock.
Of course, if you are talking of using a shotgun breech as the monoblock rather than a solid machined monoblock, you most likely do lose some ultimate strength but if the joining is done properly, still quite strong enough for the purpose.
For sure, the attention to machining and fitting a chopper lump is higher simply because mistakes are more costly if you bugger up a chopper lump.

I would agree that a mono block shares strength as an attribute, along with chopper lump barrels, and I think either surpassed shoe lump or dovetail lump in that department.

Chopper lump barrels can be lighter than the other three methods, and slimmer too.

Compare the mono block above with the shoe lump, you can see why the mono block is going to be heavier, the same applies to both dovetail and chopper lump as well.

The take CL and compare it to shoe lump, the whole of the shoe is unnecessary in CL construction, allowing both a trimmer and a lighter set of barrels.

Compare CL to dovetail and the same applies, less "meat" is required since a dovetail doesn't have to be cut in the breach end metal.

I have read that CL also allows the barrel centerlines to be closer together, and this seems the case when looking at examples of the different methods of construction.

JPK

JPK

The subject of Chopper Lump barrels has taken me briefly across the web searching for info.Some interesting stuff.I would like to go back in time and talk to the people making doubles and ask them for the reason behind Chopper Lump barrels.It is nice to see things especially rifles that have not had any shortcuts in the way they were made.I was just wondering also what other short cuts are taken besides attaching the barrels at the breech end-things that one who knows nothing about gun making is unaware of-little details that could make a huge difference ?
Here is a Win. mod. 21 shotgun with CL barrels.
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