I'm looking for any load data or knowledge for a 16 bore Howdah. My buddy is working the deal now. Don't know the case length yet, but it has rifled bores.

- Any thoughts on bullet weight?
- Conical, Fosbury, or Ball?
- He will cast the chamber and bore, so we will have good dies and molds made.
- Any ideas on pressure/velocity?
- Any thoughts to powder? We use 4198 and filler in our BPE's.

Just getting started here, so any experience with bore rifles is appreciated.
Thanks, ND

Load for this cartridge howdah pistol will be a roundball at groove + .003"-.005" in (most likely) a paper or plastic case with about 1/4"-3/8" of lubed felt wadding and as much black powder as the case will take given the ball and wadding.
I can detail the wadding etc later when you post the chamber casting details - which might surprise us somehow.

Use real black powder, Goex FFg or Swiss 1-1/2Fg -- not pyrodex or other substitute.



Post photos.
Lots of them.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker,
Thanks for the information! My buddy will take ownership of the Howdah after the Reno show. A gentleman is doing a piece on this gun, in his book, so George Caswell will have it at the show. Have a look if anyone is going to Reno, but the gun is coming back to Oklahoma.
I will post some pictures when I get some...
We are gathering information from JJ, Cal Pappas, David Powell, and anyone else who wishes to help. Then we will begin working up some loads.
Again, I greatly appreciate your contribution! Not many people have first hand information with A Howdah...and a rifled 16 bore at that.
Thanks, ND

Dave-

It should be pretty easy.
Ball, wadding, black, bang-bang.

If I get into town for the show I'll visit George and look at the pistol.
If he wants to get out, we can run it on my ranch.



Cheers
Tinker

Omnivorous Bob has a 577 Snider Howdah. He may be a big help to you too.

Mike,
My friend has a Boss DR in .577 Snider. It is a blast to shoot! Boss only made 75 rifles prior to 1900. I figure this has to be the only one chambered .577 Snider. Most DR guys have never seen a Boss rifle and ask if it is a 20 bore. He shot a Marino Ram with it, and upon bullet impact, you could see a fist size blood spot on the entry side. Way cool gun!
I simply love the old BPE's!!!
ND

I'd love to have a quality reproduction of a 4 barrel Lancaster Howdah pistol.These were made from .380 to .577 .Would be nice in a modern cartidge 44 mag or bigger.

Dave: Do a search for forum member Lar45 and send him a PM. He has multiple howdahs, and this site is linked on his profile page:

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/

Anyone out there interested in a near 100% in every respect Howdah Pistol?

Give a shout there is one or perhaps two 20-Bore Sidelock Ejectors available.

GOB

Please post photos and specs on the 20bore sidelock ejector howdah pistol.
Who is the maker?
When was it made?

Very interested to see and hear about this pistol.



Cheers
Tinker

Hello,

The maker is Thomas Bland & Sons, have to check the records for the correct date.

If you send an e-mail address I shall happily send photos. I have really not been able to get photos on this site successfully.

Thanks,

Glenn

I wouldn´t mind a look at some photos of the Howdah pistol, thanks, Mike

Mr. Bailey,

Send us an e-mail address and we shall send you photos gladley. Sorry but I have not been able to send the photos uploaded on this site.

Glenn

Their is all kinds of data floating around for the 577 Snider, and it should be similar. Almost everyone with a Snider simply loads a 600 ball in a 24 ga shell cut off to fit the chamber and is good to go. I suspect the advise to just load the ball and shell and fill with BP is close. I, unfortunately, bought the only Snider carbine in existance which had a chamber so tight it wouldn't chamber the shotgun hulls unless cut off to 1-1/2". I will say that oversize lead balls certainly seem to work better in the 577 bore. They squeeze down enough to take the rifling and stabilize.

Gentlemen,
Here are some pictures of the Army & Navy 16 bore Howdah. The bore is .655" It came with all the tools pictured, so we have a mold for round ball and will shoot black powder. George Caswell said that this is the finest howdah he has ever seen. It appears unfired, with like new bores.
Turns out that the man George is meeting in Reno is our own Cal Pappas. He is going to have some pictures of this gun in his new book. Cal, please correct me if I have mis-stated this, as I am getting 3rd hand information.
Thanks, ND

Magnificent!!! What a find and I look forward to the range report.

My buddy Mike is already trying to decide what kind of animal to hunt with it... He will be hunting Red Stag in Ireland this October and brown bear in Alaska next spring, but neither would be a good hunt for this howdah. He is going to take the bear with a 500 S&W pistol though. I am betting he will take a whitetail with the howdah. He head shot a doe with a 1911 last fall. Mike is an excellent shot with a pistol and loves to stalk up close.
ND

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
Their is all kinds of data floating around for the 577 Snider, and it should be similar. Almost everyone with a Snider simply loads a 600 ball in a 24 ga shell cut off to fit the chamber and is good to go. I suspect the advise to just load the ball and shell and fill with BP is close. I, unfortunately, bought the only Snider carbine in existance which had a chamber so tight it wouldn't chamber the shotgun hulls unless cut off to 1-1/2". I will say that oversize lead balls certainly seem to work better in the 577 bore. They squeeze down enough to take the rifling and stabilize.

Uh.. You do realize that the Snider does have a shoulder on it? A regular 24 ga won't chamber because it stepped town a bit. The 24ga is the paerent to the 577 Snider but it does need to be reformed some.

That is a wonderful looking howdah!
Do you have any clue who made this for Army/Navy?

Mike,
I have not had the chance to handle it yet. My buddy got to hold it for a couple of hours, pay for it, and then turn it back to George for the Reno show. George is going to do one of his write-ups and photo layout upon his return. I think his sales listings are "poetic". I will post more updates as we learn more. I will also post loads and targets as we get to that.
Oh yeah, the cases are 1.8" long. JJ said it will be a thumper. The last howdah I saw was a John Rigby 20 bore, and it had a 1.25" case.
ND

I've only popped a couple of rounds from the 577 Snider and it was a hoot! You guys will have fun with it. Take a couple of shots at a bowling pin at the 100 yd mark. You might be surprised how close you can come out of those short barrels.

I just love the .577 Snider. That short fat case reminds me of an English Bulldog. Every time I shoot the Boss .577 Snider, I find myself with a big grin.
ND

It'll likely take about 3-1/2drm FFg
I'd use Goex, and go ~10% tin on the balls

Lubed felt wadding with hard card over the powder and it's good to go
Sounds like it's set up for paper case, he can use plastic, lucky dude

I look forward to seeing how it goes
I'm frickin jealous



Cheers
Tinker

Dave:
Sorry to get back to you this long. I won't be at
SCI and yes, your Howdah will be in my book. In fact it is already placed. Also, when my 8-bore is returned to me in the spring or summer I will be be able to lower the price. Call, or better yet, come up for a shoot.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Call, or better yet, come up for a shoot.
Cal

Speaking of which... When are you going to wander back home? When the geese fly north again?

Mike:
We're way off topic here but I doubt this is the first time this has happened on AR!
I've been around gathering info for the book on bore rifles and am editing the copy now. Two gents in AK proofed (read...not fired) it. I plan to drive home the first or second week of March and get back two weeks later. I don't know if I can make it to the AGCA gun show on the 24th.
Upon my return, we'll shoot with the double rifle boys and I will beg your forgiveness in advance--I now own a single shot Jeffery in .600. Shortly after--see you in Australia!!
I can send you my air schedule as we an connect on the flights if that is possible.
Cheers,
Cal

George called me over to look at this pistol in Vegas. He knows I like Howda's, after all they have two barrels, .

That is one nice gun. It feel and handles great.

It is "mint" for sure.

Please let us know how it shoots.

Gentlemen,
We plan to shoot it this Saturday. Should have the wads and shell holder by then. Mike has sized and cut brass cases to length. It had a few brass cases came with it, so we thought we would start there. Poured some balls with the mold that came with the gun and they weigh 403-404 grains. The powder scoop appears to be 1 dram, so we will start with 1 scoop of ffg and go from there. We will start with a fiber card wad over the powder, then lubed felt wads, then wrap the ball in a cleaning patch and push in with your thumb...trim off excess patch and pull trigger.
I will report our progress as we go.

That's a beauty, I love howdahs, gotta wonder what kind of conditions guys were using them in. It's surprising kinda that none of the makers now offer one. come on VC!

Red

Back up guns for hunting for or around tigers from what I remember.

quote:

gotta wonder what kind of conditions guys were using them in.

They were intended as a last ditch defense should the tiger/leopard climb into your howdah.

So Dave--

quote:

Originally posted by Nitrodave:
Gentlemen,
We plan to shoot it this Saturday...

How did it go..?

Anyone know how this went..?

Sorry guys... I got wrapped up in an 8 bore deal and forgot to post results.
We first shot the Howdah with 1 dram of ffg, card wad over powder, about an inch of lined felt wadding, then laid a cleaning patch over the hole and pressed the 404gr round ball in with thumb. Trimmed off extra patch and sealed it with hot bullet lube/wax. This seemed very soft in recoil and carried the patch all the way into the target...about 3" deep in the blocks made of ground compressed tire remains.
The next 4 rounds we loaded with 2 drams and this felt much better. Made for less smoke and fire from the barrel, so I assume it pressured up for a better burn???
We were shooting 12 yards in an indoor range and grouping each barrel inside 1 inch. The two barrels were printing consistant 1.5" apart with the left barrel 1" higher. Groups were slightly left of center POA. Interesting because I shoot left hand and Mike shoots right hand.

We are using brass 16 bore cases cut to 1.8" length. The chamber is not cut for paper cases... They would be too thick. I am having issue with the patched ball is not tight in the casing. You can easily move it with finger pressure and it springs back out with wad compression. It would easily dislodge the off barrel slug upon recoil. Thus, we are sealing them in with the wax bullet lube. My fear is it is still carrying the patch all the way into the target, which should hinder accuracy as we move back. I have considered using a slight roll crimp to hold the ball in, and abort the wax. Would this require a special crimp die, because the ball protrudes past the end of the case?
Thanks, ND

It sounds like you do need paper or plastic case if your roundball won't fit in the thin brass case.

I'd like to see chamber dimensions and bore and groove diameters.
Also I think you need to run more powder.

What powder are you running?
What diameter of roundball are you using?
I suggest ball at groove diameter plus about .002"-.005"
Run a good lube in saddle felt wadding
Run a good card between powder and felt

Nitro Dave

Sounds like it is shooting pretty good. Here are some random thoughts...

Are you lubing the cleaning patch that goes around the ball?

Could you use a thicker patch to help keep the ball in the case? Try some of the thicker patches, lubed with something like Bore Butter, that black powder rifle roundball shooters use.

Also you might try to have enough of a was behind the ball so that just under 50% of the ball stickes out of the case, and you could apply a roll crimp that would actually grip the ball itself.

quote:

I got wrapped up in an 8 bore deal

how bout some more info on this....along with pics? thanks for sharing.

Tinker,
it may be 2-3 weeks before I get back over to shoot it again. I will get some data on the chamber, bore, groove, and ball. I was going to do this last time, but we were shooting a lot of doubles.

450 No2,
the ball is seating just past 1/2 way in, so I think a slight roll crimp might work good. We are using a good card stock over the powder and about an inch of lubbed felt wads.

Degoins,
The 8 bore is a done deal! It's a Manton with excellent bores, beautiful case colors(original), Jones underlever, 14 5/8 LOP, nice wood, cased. Comes with 20 original Manton brass cases, a Manton mold with matching serial#, loading dies, several loaded rounds, some conicals, oil bottle, turnscrew... This gun wants for nothing!!!
I will try to get some pictures up, when I have a spare minute at work.
Thanks, ND

Dave I look forward to seeing your data.
That mould's throwing a 'small 17bore' ball.
It doesn't look to be original to the kit, could have come from anywhere over the last 100years.

Keep it for the box and have Tanner make you a ball mould that's just right for your bores



Cheers
Tinker

Hey, I think I finally found a firearm I don't need :-)