I wonder if it would be safe to use the driving band bullets like a CEB or a Northfork in a vintage Damascus barreled rifle like a 450 or a 500 cal.

I know about barrel strain etc. But Michael & Sam's studies showed that the barrel strain was greater when using cast lead projectiles! So a hard cast wheel weight bullet has a lot of barrel strain!

My instincts make my gut churn at the thought of using a mono metal. I just want to know if that is just a myth.

It would be great to be able to hunt buffalo with a vintage 500 BPE using CEB 350 to 500 gr bullets at 1700 to 2000 fps.

I always used lead/tin (30-1) projectiles in my Damascus barrels. They were originally meant for lead projectiles. With proper lubricant I think they would be the bullet of choice over mono metal. Would be hard to push mono's to velocity that they would perform better than lead. Just my thinking.

So tempting to buy the beautiful BPE rifles. The steel barrel ones must be worth it.

Yes, at least once! But I wouldn't do it if I valued the gun.

NO. Buy a new double rifle for that. Damascus barrels are best used with the bullets they were made for; Lead. Usually pure, often paper patched. If you value it.

Naki, I know the temptation! There are some absolutely beautiful pieces of gun-art out there with Damascus barrels. Imagine the man-hours of work that went into creating the! I'll use a Damascus barreled shotgun, but for rifles, I want steel.

I would add if all variables equalled the original load--bullet weight, bullet diameter, velocity, powder burn rate, shape of the bullet, etc., you are safe to shoot just about anything.

That said, I like to shoot what the rifles were made to shoot. While I shoot smokeless in all of my black powder rifles (both express and bore) I prefer to shoot black. This is also why I recommend to all to shoot Woodleighs as they are made to the traditional standards as to weight and shape and diameter. Save the fancy modern concoctions with (often) stupid names for modern made rifles with no hand work or gun smithing skills--just skills at computer controls for a CNC lathe and an injection mold for stocks. All guaranteed to shoot sub moa.

Again, yes, they will work and I shot four boxes of Barnes banded solids in my vintage .600 many years ago to see the results. No OSR, accuracy was good, no problems except they were so damn ugly in a nice vintage double rifle. Kind of like opening the SI bathing suit issue and centered in all of the pages of hot models is Janet Reno in a thong. She may have all the parts, but she does not fit in there.
Good shooting,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I would add if all variables equalled the original load--bullet weight, bullet diameter, velocity, powder burn rate, shape of the bullet, etc., you are safe to shoot just about anything.

That said, I like to shoot what the rifles were made to shoot. While I shoot smokeless in all of my black powder rifles (both express and bore) I prefer to shoot black. This is also why I recommend to all to shoot Woodleighs as they are made to the traditional standards as to weight and shape and diameter. Save the fancy modern concoctions with (often) stupid names for modern made rifles with no hand work or gun smithing skills--just skills at computer controls for a CNC lathe and an injection mold for stocks. All guaranteed to shoot sub moa.

Again, yes, they will work and I shot four boxes of Barnes banded solids in my vintage .600 many years ago to see the results. No OSR, accuracy was good, no problems except they were so damn ugly in a nice vintage double rifle. Kind of like opening the SI bathing suit issue and centered in all of the pages of hot models is Janet Reno in a thong. She may have all the parts, but she does not fit in there.
Good shooting,
Cal

Informative and entertaining post Cal.

Naki, why take the risk if you're not sure.Hate for anything to happen to you.jc

Perfectly fine as long as that one metal is lead.

Cal, I ran a test using Woodleighs and original Kynoch projectiles loaded by me in one of my 450-400 3 1/4's. While I thought that they were of equal shape/design/weight (all 400 grains) the original Kynochs printed approximately 8 inches lower than the Woodleighs at 50 yards. Don't know why, though, unless it had to do with the jacket thickness/composition. Used the same load of 70 grains of RL15 and backer wads with CCI 250's in Jameson brass.

Dutch44 Is yours a Nitro gun or a BPE?

Here is a link to this topic. I know the gentleman who owns Guns International and has shot both buffalo and elephant with the CEB.
Happy reading it is over a 30 page spread:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...361009461#1361009461

I looked at some of the link but I didn't look at all 30 pages!!!

So, tell us, did he fire those bullets out of a Damascus barreled rifle proofed for BP?

Cal, It was a Nitro rifle. I only shoot lead in my BPE rifles.

Sorry, Naki I meant.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I wonder if it would be safe to use the driving band bullets like a CEB or a Northfork in a vintage Damascus barreled rifle like a 450 or a 500 cal.

You might get away with it, but IMO it is simply pushing the limits of a fine old Damascus rifle! I personally would avoid anything other than lead bullets of the type the rifle was made to shoot!

....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Dutch44 Is yours a Nitro gun or a BPE?

I don't think you will find a Damascus barreled rifle with a Nitro proof mark. Maybe but most at least were made for black powder, and lead or paper patched lead bullets and very low pressure!

...............................................................

The gun used was a .500 Alex Henry underlever damascus barreled hammerless.

You're game to even ask the question, Nakihunter. I dared to ask once if doubt about putting monos through doubles might still exist; the new-wave replies left me feeling as though I'd had a pineapple put through my elementary canal - from the wrong end.

I don't own a damascus barreled rifle and am not advocating monos in such rifles but if you care to do a little research on the subject, Michael and Sam did quite a bit of research in regards to barrel strains and pressure with various types of projectiles. It should be contained on the "Double Rifle Bullet of the Future" thread somewhere but I specifically remember them reporting lead cast bullets gave a surprisingly high pressure and strain reading as compared to monos.


Here is a reference to that data:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...771051661#7771051661



And here is the pressure and strain results. You'll see lead cast at the bottom showing the highest barrel strains by far. How you interpret this data .... YMMV.


http://forums.accuratereloadin...241099991#4241099991

There is a lot of interesting and extremely valuable information contained in those tests, that's for sure.
However the results cannot be directly related to vintage BP double rifles with Damascus barrels.
There are too many possible variables with old DR's concerning bore and groove diameters, rifling type etc. All/any of these could affect pressures and strains if hard projectiles were used.

I wouldn't do it.

I would suggest that you would only need to load two rounds per vintage DR...

Cal

I have sent you a PM.

This might be of interest to those of you involved in this debate (?). At some point I remember Ross Seyfried writing about seeing the same thing on a very expensive H&H double.

http://www.theexplora.com/new-...estley-richards-476/

I would tend to think Mr. Clode has more experience than most.

Lee

I was just going to post the same thing Lee. You beat me to it.

Guys,
was at Westley Richards factory a few weeks ago checking on the progress of my 500 double.

This discussion on Mono metals was had and bottom line, the guys have seen too many old guns showing signs of OSR and damage that they do not recommend shooting them. Trigger is contributing to an article being written by Diggory Hadoke from Vintage Guns on this very topic.

In fact Simon Clode { the owner of WR] has written about this in the last few days on the WR Explora blog. Check it out . shows a fine WR 476 drop lock with barrels stuffed"

when they finish my gun, i'll be using conventional Woodleigh FMJ"S

CHEERS

Nick

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:
Guys,
when they finish my gun, i'll be using conventional Woodleigh FMJ"S

CHEERS

Nick

I think that Northfork and Cutting Edge bullets are double rifle friendly. Maybe GS Custom too.

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:
Guys,
was at Westley Richards factory a few weeks ago checking on the progress of my 500 double.

This discussion on Mono metals was had and bottom line, the guys have seen too many old guns showing signs of OSR and damage that they do not recommend shooting them. Trigger is contributing to an article being written by Diggory Hadoke from Vintage Guns on this very topic.

In fact Simon Clode { the owner of WR] has written about this in the last few days on the WR Explora blog. Check it out . shows a fine WR 476 drop lock with barrels stuffed"

when they finish my gun, i'll be using conventional Woodleigh FMJ"S

CHEERS

Nick

Good advice there. In terms of performance, the Woodleighs perform fine and we know they are safe for doubles. If there is any incremental risk using a monometal bullet in an old double, however small, why chance it. Will have to check out the Explora blog. Thanks Nick.

I will shoot a monometal without much concern in my 300WM but not in a big bore bolt or double.Large and heavy monometal projectiles are not easy to stableize.Also I have read where experts such as the guy from WR and a double rifle regulator from Holland and Holland warning DR owners not to shoot many solids down the bores or shoot monometal bullets.Shooting heavy monometals in big bore rifles or doubles is something relatively new and does not have a proven track record over the long run compared to Jacketed solids.If tests showed that a FN monometal will out penetrate and stay on course longer if fired from a specific barrel at a specific distance than a jacketed solid that is not enough to outdo a jacketed solid.

In Double Gun Journal summer 1993 there is an interesting artical Called `Blackpowder, smokelesspowder, damascus or steel...Modern fallacies`.
If any is interested drop a PM. I also have a few other articals in regards to bringing a BPE rifle to Africa from DGJ.

I read that blog on the WR site & I have replied with my comments.

Here is part of what I have said

"I personally have 2 comments / opinions on the matter. Firstly did the shooter reload a .483 bullet by mistake in the rifle? That could have been the problem. I cannot envisage a mono metal bullet of the right caliber cracking the new modern steel barrel. Sorry, but it just does not make logical sense to me. A brass alloy bullet with grooves / bands must displace brass into the grooves as brass is far softer than barrel steel.

Secondly, there is little difference in profile of a double or a single barrel in terms of the individual barrel dimensions of breach & wall thickness etc. In fact the doubles generally seem to have thicker breach and barrel wall thickness. How then do we not see OSR in single barrel rifles?"

Have Sam & Michael experienced any OSR even in one rifle so far?

That would be a great source of info.

We are talking of Nitro guns now of course.

I would not use a Woodleigh FMJ in an old double. The hydro is softer (same as soft point jacket metal). The steel solids are not reccomended for old doubles. By old I am informed pre WW2 or post WW2 made with pre-war components.

Champlin's had a 475 No 2 (483 dia.) that had a split barrel. Thinking that maybe a .488 was shot out of it. Wrong diameter can have a devastating effect on a bore. Don't know if that was the cause....just conjecture.

Let me start by saying I've never owned a vintage double and most likely never will...if I ever find myself in a position to afford a Bespoke English rifle it will be new.

However, I do know a little about steel and it seems to me that after reading about this subject over and over on this forum that no one ever points out that the barrels are simply over a hundred years old! Shouldn't we expect a certain percentage of said barrels to develop stress fractures and the steel to become brittle over that amount of time?
It would seem to me that some of this could simply be a matter of age in general...no matter how much we hate to think of vintage doubles not lasting forever...well..they won't and at some point the steel will fail.

Its been said on here by some that DR barrels are thinner by design than single barrel rifles...so I would assume that we would see problems once in awhile..after all we are talking about inferior quality steel from a bygone era. Just because they were made by the best craftsmen the world has ever known, doesn't mean they were made with the best materials at least by todays standards anyway.

Just a thought...go easy on me.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Let me start by saying I've never owned a vintage double and most likely never will...if I ever find myself in a position to afford a Bespoke English rifle it will be new.

However, I do know a little about steel and it seems to me that after reading about this subject over and over on this forum that no one ever points out that the barrels are simply over a hundred years old! Shouldn't we expect a certain percentage of said barrels to develop stress fractures and the steel to become brittle over that amount of time?
It would seem to me that some of this could simply be a matter of age in general...no matter how much we hate to think of vintage doubles not lasting forever...well..they won't and at some point the steel will fail.

Its been said on here by some that DR barrels are thinner by design than single barrel rifles...so I would assume that we would see problems once in awhile..after all we are talking about inferior quality steel from a bygone era. Just because they were made by the best craftsmen the world has ever known, doesn't mean they were made with the best materials at least by todays standards anyway.

Just a thought...go easy on me.

Great Post.

One last thing that bothers me about the link to WR posted above...they can manage to take a pic of the pretty new barrels they crafted their customer but can't produce a pic of the barrels with OSR. I have yet to see one single pic of actual OSR in all the threads this has been brought up in. Maybe I missed them idk...but they are talked about as if they are common place and are always blamed on monometal bullets...but yet no pics

If these manufactures wanted to get their point across for good....post ONE pic.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
One last thing that bothers me about the link to WR posted above...they can manage to take a pic of the pretty new barrels they crafted their customer but can't produce a pic of the barrels with OSR. I have yet to see one single pic of actual OSR in all the threads this has been brought up in. Maybe I missed them idk...but they are talked about as if they are common place and are always blamed on monometal bullets...but yet no pics

If these manufactures wanted to get their point across for good....post ONE pic.

I've fought this OSR battle to the point that I just don't care any longer. Never seen evidence of it. And by evidence, I mean taking a DR with no OSR marks, shooting a mono metal bullet, then immediately afterward finding the rifling on the outside!

I had a Ruger M-77 in 338WM back in 1983 with "candy stripping" down the barrel that came that way from the factory, long before monos were on the market. I just can't see how a critical thinking adult can believe a bullet can make rifling migrate to the outside of a barrel before that same barrel would either split or bulge but if some want to continue thinking that way, have at it. Hey, I'm not advocating shooting them in your vintage gun but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. That barrel will bulge or split before spitting rifling out the muzzle. But YMMV.

What does seem more likely however is that somewhere, somehow, someone obtained a rifle with similar markings to my Ruger M-77 and when they presented it to the manufacturer for an explanation, well of course it had to be someone else's fault right? Probably one of those new fangled mono metal bullets. And with that, a wives tales was born that just keeps on living and giving.

Kind of like the statement by Mr. Wright in his book about double rifles where he said not to shoot Trail Boss in doubles. At least that's what the Trail Boss factory rep told me. Said that since Mr. Wright said no, he wouldn't recommend it. Except that Mr. Wright never said as much. He never said anything about locking up a Nitro Proofed DR with a reduced load of TB. He said he locked up a BP proofed DR trying to achieve the nominal BP velocities by using a compressed load of TB. Two completely different things. Yet, even today, the factory reps for Trail Boss will tell you not to shoot it in ANY DR. Bad juju. Just like monos!

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
One last thing that bothers me about the link to WR posted above...they can manage to take a pic of the pretty new barrels they crafted their customer but can't produce a pic of the barrels with OSR. I have yet to see one single pic of actual OSR in all the threads this has been brought up in. Maybe I missed them idk...but they are talked about as if they are common place and are always blamed on monometal bullets...but yet no pics

If these manufactures wanted to get their point across for good....post ONE pic.

Heym 450-400, OSR is not only hard to photograph but is equally hard to see in poor light. I have personally seen two examples of it on rifles brought to one of the DRSS annual hunts it Texas. I tried to photograph it with little success. That is not saying it can't be photographed but the difficulty may be why you have not seen pictures of it on the internet.

The examples I have seen have both been in the last four or five inches of the barrels at the muzzles, and both have been on vintage UK doubles with thin barrels.

This has been discussed and cussed to ad nauseam , with disbelievers claiming those who have seen it to simply be liars.

On this subject I say believe what ever you want!
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