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I never called any OSR believer a "liar" Mac. But there are things that are more believable. Like this for instance: Taken on my trail camera this morning in (insert your geographical locale here and post on FaceBook.)  | |||
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................ that must be a Blaser shooter!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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MacD37 I value your opinion on DR's more highly than most on this forum. With that said I believe you when you claim to have seen OSR on vintage doubles, I have no reason not to and have followed and learned from your posts since I joined this forum years ago. However my argument would be OSR may very well exist but it isn't there because a mono was shot through it once or a thousand times. Without getting into a complex discussion about steel and its properties...I'll just say I'm involved in the testing and detection of stress fractures and other flaws only detectable with Ultrasonic equipment. I have a few theories on why those marks may appear on the outside of the barrels but I can say with a high level of confidence that mono bullets did not put them there. If someone can make a strong case for a correlation between the two I'll be more than happy to consider their evidence. I'm always willing to learn. | |||
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I resemble that remark....  I tried to only shoot vintage English rifles but they kept putting the rifling on the outside..  | |||
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MacD37 I do have one question though...when you observed these barrels with OSR..could you feel it on the outside of the barrels or only see it? If you ran your hand up and down could you actually feel ripples or was it more of "shadow markings" observed when the light hit the barrels just right? | |||
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Well, you've been fighting some sort of a battle alright, but sadly it has nothing to do with OSR. Your constant reference (in many posts) to OSR as 'rifling migrating to the outside of a barrel' and 'rifling spitting out the muzzle' etc is so far removed from what was originally described as OSR. Perhaps if you understood how OSR was originally described, how vintage DR barrels were externally finished, and how some 'hard' projectiles were thought to be at least part of the problem which caused OSR, you might end up with a more educated opinion on the subject. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to highlight the fact that what you are calling OSR is totally different to what has been described by some very experienced people in the DR world, including some of the best gun makers around. | |||
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Actually, I'd say you're the one needing the eduction here. I know well what the "original" OSR description was concerning the light shadowing of "candy striping" on the outside of the barrel, viewable in certain light. Like I've said numerous times, my Ruger M-77 had it ... no monometals involved. But over the years that "original description" as you put it, morphed into all kind of crazy descriptions such as "rifling spitting out the end of the barrel" and the like. Those are not my descriptions, but rather an example of how the desription morphed over the years by so called "expert gun writers". But hey if you believe in Bigfoot, who am I to say otherwise. Especially if you claim to have seen one!    | |||
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HEYM 450/400, First off let say, I don’t want to start a mud fight here with this subject. However, to answer your question, IMO, I tend to take the word of the rifle makers on this subject, in conjunction with my own eyes as to the existence of OSR! As to the cause of this phenomenon most of the makers seem to blame hard bullets combined with soft barrel steel and/or firing of over sized bullets in the rifle over time. Here let me offer a fact that is certainly true where mono-metal solids are concerned! It is a fact that the first mono-metal solids are not the same animal that we have today. The new solid design, are IMO, perfectly fine in new double rifles, and may be so in vintage ones as well. I’ll leave that up to the owner of his rifle, new or old! I use North Fork solids in my new made doubles, and I have no doubt the others with a same basic design are safe as well. The first monos were made with two diameters, the nose being bore diameter, and the long bearing surface being groove diameter, and made of very hard BRASS! The displaced metal had no place to go with that design. The modern monos of today are made with what most call pressure rings with the grooves between them cut below groove diameter leaving a place to go for the displaced metal engraved by the rifling. In the best of the new monos the so called PRESSURE RINGS are very thin sealing in pressure, but are very easy to engrave by the rifling along with having a place for displaced metal to go. Still today there is one brand that is still made from very hard brass, with rings that are very wide. If any of the new ones will do damage it will be that one. The new mono-metal bullets have been shown to totally reverse the stress on the barrels to even less than some soft core traditionally made solids! This, IMO, will be fine in, at least, new double rifles. To answer your question about the examples of OSR I’ve seen, yes you can feel the stressed metal on the outside of the barrels, and it follows the rifling rate twist in the barrels but it is very hard to see under some light sources. I suppose some one who is very well trained in photography with good cameras could do the job. I have an idea of how it could be done but I don't have an OSR rifle to try it on! In my opinion, the cause is a combination of soft steel, in thin barrel walls, and overly hard bullets of poor design and/or oversized bullets! However opinions vary, and mine is just one, others may believe what ever they want ! ......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Todd I think what you had on your M77 Ruger had nothing to do with OSR. The 77 barrels have hammer forged rifling, over a rifling mandrel before turning the barrels to it's final shape and the outside of the barrels are some times not turned enough in profiling the barrel to take the hammer patterns away. Steyr Mannlicher rifles were purposely left with that pattern left on part of the barrel for decoration. I know you don't believe OSR exists but contrary opinions don't make one or the other true or false! We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one! ................................................................No mud! BYE  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Hey Mac, if in your opinion, the cause of this "OSR" you witnessed was caused by a combination of soft metal, in a thin barrel wall, and overly hard bullets, how do you account for that M-77 338WM rifle of mine back in 1983 that had the same "candy striping", long before any monometal bullet was on the market and more specifically, having come from the factory in that condition? | |||
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Read the post just prior to yours!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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BINGO!!!! | |||
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If you mic the bullet and your bores, and use a bullet that's a tad undersize and not oversized I don't think it hurts and I have done it more than a few times, got good accuracy and no problems..monolihics are hard and if oversize could run up pressures and probably damage the bore, and the more recent monolithics have improved over the years on that issue. Also underload these old guns a bit and be sure they are in working order and headspace is correct..Even standard cup and core bullets are ill advised if overisized and doubles can be many sizes. I have seen doubles in say 450-400 with bores from .406 to .411 and one with .413 bores. Most will be .408, 410 or .411... However, unless you have a lot of experience with doubles, and fully understand what Cal and I both indicate, I would advise you to shoot lead bullets in that old gun, but still mic your bores and bullets accordingly.. I can recall some years ago on AR wherein the screams were loud and with finality the one could not shoot monolithics in ANY double rifle, not even a new Searcy and definatly not to shoot H4831 in a double rifle, all old wives tales that have been around for ions, and just not based on fact. The same applies to Damascus shotguns, some are beautiful and need shoot'en IMO..but I use low base, very mild loads and always have the chambers checked as many are short chambered and have given Damascus a bad name. Be sure these guns, both rifle and shotguns are on face.. I don't know of a rifle that is more surrounded by mestic and false information than the double rifle, and surrounded by more BS... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Right "BINGO"! Because your Ruger M77 had "candy strip" caused by the hammer forging has nothing to do with OSR in no way is evidence that OSR doesn't exist! I'm sure you don't still have that M77 but I'd bet if you did, the Candy striping on that barrel was not the same as the twist rate of the barrel. In the case of true OSR, the bulges on the outside the barrels are exactly the same rate as the rifling twist inside the barrels. You are right about one thing for sure this is nothing more than beating a dead horse! ............................................ ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac, have you filled that Sasquatch tag this year? | |||
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NO! I can't figure what to put in the feeder that would attract one and can't find a taxidermist that is willing to mount one If I bag one! Decisions, decisions!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Ah, so actually you haven't been fighting the battle against OSR at all, but really fighting the battle against the "crazy descriptions" (of OSR) by "expert gun writers". By the way, who would those "expert gun writers" be? . | |||
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Thank You for taking the time to explain...I'm not familiar with some of the original mono's and the problems they potentially could of caused. I'm not here to convince anybody to shoot something they're not comfortable with in their expensive double. I'm just a little skeptical on the CAUSE of OSR is all. | |||
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Guess, I am in the East Texas Redneck Sasquatch and Black Panther "seeing crowd" --Cass Co --that is-- For--I have seen"OSR" candy canes on the external surface of vintage DR's that were "fluid" steel and have seen a split barrel on a Webley actioned Army/Navy from an early Barnes Bronze Solid. Yes , I fire "new" Barnes bullets in my "new" Heym rifles--but never would in a vintage double. If it were my Damascus barreled DR-- I would avoid mono-metals, as well as any 'Extra heavy jacketed' solid projectiles- However, the good thing is we all have the freedom to do as we wish-- We just need to be willing to own the consequences of our choices | |||
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I still have some of the original brass .458 solids with only two diameters but I have zero idea how to take a close up picture of them along with a North Fork solid to show the difference between the old and new designs! With that people could see for themselves the potential for damage when using the original that has been improved by the new designs. I bought a box of those original Mono-metal solids to use in a double chambered for 458 RCBS a flanged cartridge. The rifle digested the loads with cup and core softs easily and regulated perfectly. I loaded some of the original mono-metal two diameter solids and reduced the powder charge by three grains. The first shot had a hell of a recoil, but I fired the second barrel and the same. The action/barrel set were locked so tight that I had to break the rifle open with a sharp rap over my leg to get the rifle to open. The pressures had gone through the roof. It did not cause any OSR to the barrels IMO, because the barrels on this rifle were not only new steel, but barrel walls were unusually thick right out to the muzzles. I still have 46 in the fifty round box, and two loaded in rounds in my cartridge collection. My opinion is, if those bullets had been shot in a vintage double rifle I would have my own example of OSR to show! It is also my opinion that these old design is what caused the OSR in the first place, effectively giving ALL mono-metal solids a bad name! In every instance where I run into a person who rabidly denies the existence of OSR there reasoning is they have never seen it for themselves so it must not exist. Everyone who has seen the damage describes it in the exact same way but are disbelieved. This is a fact that simply boggles my mind! ................................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Hey I'm from East Texas as well. Had totally forgotten about the black panther sightings!  You do know that Pro Wrastlin is fake ... right?  | |||
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Yep- But Gorgeous George was always nice to me as a kid- Whenever he would come through town (all 700 people) usually in his gold convertible he would stop at the grocery store I helped in after school. He came through for the last time in the spring of 1963 and took this "country kid" for a ride in the fabulous gold car-- Fritz von Erich would also come through from to me to time-- never thought about it then- later I learned our grocer was another old wrestler and manager that had retired to be a grocer and raise his kids- An even stranger fact is - my vascular/thoracic surgery instructor worked his way through college and med school as a "masked" wrestler- HUGE hands that could repair the tiniest vessel Truly Amazing | |||
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Pressure in the barrel, caused by the firing of a bullet down a bore, is a combination of two forces. 1. Pressure caused by the expanding gas and this is very similar no matter what the construction of the bullet may be. 2. Internal barrel wall pressure between the bullet and the rifling - How hard does the bullet press against the internal surface of the barrel wall and how much does the barrel have to bulge outwards to accommodate this barrel wall pressure? When pressure builds behind any bullet, the bullet shortens lengthwise and expands radially until it is stopped by the internal dimensions of the barrel wall. The softer the material that the bullet is made from, the more it will shorten length wise, the more it will try to expand radially, the more barrel wall pressure becomes and the more the barrel has to bulge and yield to this barrel wall pressure that is caused by the bullet. Monometal copper bullets do not shorten lengthwise as jacketed lead or lead bullets do. Therefore monometal copper bullets only generate barrel wall pressure depending on how much material the rifling of the barrel displaces on the bullet shaft. Barrel wall pressure can be very high with over size monometal bullets, lower with under size monometal bullets or lower still as dictated by the construction of the bullet. It all depends on what volume of bullet material has to be displaced by the rifling of the barrel. Typically, the engraving pressure of a bullet is an indicator of barrel wall pressure. Engraving pressure is typically: 8,000 psi and over - Brass and copper oversize monometal bullets. 5,000 psi - Brass and copper properly sized monometal bullets. 4,000 psi - Partition type jacketed lead, bonded core jacketed lead and under size monometal bullets. 3,000 psi - Jacketed lead, cast lead and grooved under size copper monometal bullets 1,000 psi and under - GSC drive band bullets. You can ignore gravity but that does not make gravity go away. If GSC drive band bullets cause a double to delaminate or cause OSR in a double, GSC will pay for the repair. All monometal bullets are not made equally. | |||
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All of the above plus CF of projectile and barrel materials.
Obturation The joyous complexity of internal ballistics.  | |||
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The last sentence in bold is the key! The monometal bullets with thin pressure rings with a place between them for the displaced metal to go from the rifling engraving are,IMO,safe in fluid steel barrels new or old as long as the proper bullet diameter bullets are used. .................................................................. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The difference between a drive band bullet and a grooved bullet is illustrated here: http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqdrivebands.html | |||
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I recall going back more than a few years, wherein some monolithics split out steel double barrels or so it was claimed..then GS Customs added the rings on the bullets and all was well.. As for Damascus, I would only shoot lead, those old guns are valuble and I would croak if I ruined one, so I would opt for playing it safe and just shoot lead..because I can't answer your question as I have nothing to base an answer on but what I have read here, and like so many posts some are good and some ain't. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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No worries Todd.. We smoked him on our lease this morning!!  | |||
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Try this with any other make of bullet. Lead cast, jacketed lead, solid shank, grooved, monometal or any other configuration out there. | |||
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I have shot a ton or two of GS Customs (Gerards company) monolithic flat nose solids and some HVHPs in all my double rifles. They are extremely accurate and kill DG and PG as well or better than any bullet I have used. I still keep a good supply of them on hand. LIsten to what he says, he has been doing this for many years....Most knowledgable man I know in the industry. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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