Biebs,

Just have VC build you a cape gun with a 577 in one barrel and a 500 in the other!

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Biebs,

Just have VC build you a cape gun with a 577 in one barrel and a 500 in the other!

Sam

How about a DR 577 with 500NE slip-in barrel inserts!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
McKay,

The short nose 2 band bullet for the 577 was one of the first proto types I made. I made the bullet so I could use RL-15 with no filler. The current bullet available from CEB is what is standard now.
As for the 1 caliber 4000 grain bullet that is a one of a kind issue!

Sam

OK I understand why you placed them there. But my question still remains. Does it not matter much in the penetration then if I have some made still staying with the 4 bands but moving the first three bands forward say .100-.250"?

Mac

Mac

I had not paid much attention to "Nose Projection" until we made those short nose, I think around .460 or so from top band to nose, so they would work through the marlin lever guns--.458s for those with Marlins. I kept noticing that penetration was coming up shorter than expected for a BBW#13??? Bugged me for months on end. Average penetration would be in the low 40s. Should have been in the low 50s or mid 50s. OK, but it was still dead straight, so I left it. Then when I developed the 475 Super Short, there were no consideration of marlins in that caliber, so nose projection was .600, and penetration went from low 40s to 50s. Light bulb come on--had special runs made of the same .458s with a .600 projection and magically started penetrating to the 50s to mid 50s. All dead straight.

Now what was happening is that the short nose projection and band placement on those, the cavitation bubble was collapsing on the rear band causing drag. Longer nose projection put the rear of the bubble further away from the rear of the bullet, no drag on that last band, deeper penetration.

All standard Big Bore BBW#13s come with .700 Nose projections with the exception of my .500s, which somehow got a .585 nose projection from the beginning.

We learned that Nose Projection is actually one of the 8 or so major factors that effect Flat Nose Solid penetration.

Biebs, I am sorry, seems I have turned this into a bullet conversation, I am bad for that you know!

Michael

OK so do you think the penetration of 70"+ on that two band 577 BBW #13 solid above with the short nose projection is an anomoly?

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Biebs,

Just have VC build you a cape gun with a 577 in one barrel and a 500 in the other!

Sam

How about a DR 577 with 500NE slip-in barrel inserts!

How bout a drilling with two 500's over a single 577? Now we're talking!!

This discussion makes me recall the interview Buzz Charlton had with Ian Nyschens in Buzz's "Hunting the African Elephant" video. During the interview, Ian said the best elephant rifle he ever owned was a Westley Richards .500NE double.......and that was good enough for me. The rifle I had Butch Searcy build me for elephant hunting is a .500NE double.

I guess he would be one that would know, huh! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
A question for the African hunters and DR nuts...if you were going to have a double built strictly for Elephant, would you order it in 500 NE or 577? Trying to balance the issues of weight vs power vs ?

Back to your original question:

500NE vs. 577NE:

With all seriousness Jon, why don't you PM a certain AR member who is both a double rifle afficionado and the owner of beautiful, bespoke Verney-Carron doubles in 500NE and 577NE.

Ask him if he would be willing to let you come down his way and handle and shoot his two V-Cs. Then make up your mind based on having both in arms reach. You would be able to feel the heft, balance and recoil with as few variables as can be had in any two of something.

Best to do it based on your own impressions ...

quote:

Originally posted by McKay

OK so do you think the penetration of 70"+ on that two band 577 BBW #13 solid above with the short nose projection is an anomoly?

Mac

Can't say for sure on that, as that was a sample of either one or two max that Sam ran off. Have nothing to compare it to in .577 caliber? Anomaly? Maybe? Right now we are out of the 577 business. Had lot's to compare with in .458 and .500 calibers, so Nose Projection there, for sure a factor.

M

McKay,

Take a look at these two threads:

Click Here

And Here

Not a test of the 577 but close enough. I share these here to perhaps answer the concern about larger bore CEB#13 penetration and the placement of the bands. It doesn't appear that the more rearward bands on the ultra-bore CEB #13 have any negative effect on penetration. Perhaps if any conclusion could be drawn - the .585 CEB #13 with forward bands and the .620 CEB #13 with the now "standard-placement" of bands have similar, excellent penetration. Perhaps at these diameters and at these velocities the band placement isn't quite as critical as on smaller big bores.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
A question for the African hunters and DR nuts...if you were going to have a double built strictly for Elephant, would you order it in 500 NE or 577? Trying to balance the issues of weight vs power vs ?

Back to your original question:

500NE vs. 577NE:

With all seriousness Jon, why don't you PM a certain AR member who is both a double rifle afficionado and the owner of beautiful, bespoke Verney-Carron doubles in 500NE and 577NE.

Ask him if he would be willing to let you come down his way and handle and shoot his two V-Cs. Then make up your mind based on having both in arms reach. You would be able to feel the heft, balance and recoil with as few variables as can be had in any two of something.

Best to do it based on your own impressions ...

Biebs ...

as Ben Stiller said in the horrible re-make of Starsky and Hutch

"Do it" "Do it..." "DO IT ..."

Biebs,

I thought we went over this.... Take a deep breath, get some fresh air and order a nice 450/400 3" or 450 3 1/4 and enjoy your double rifle....

If I had to take one...you know what it would be... 500!

Ed

Mac

I can say this and have pretty high confidence, if you wanted a run of 577s and wanted a nose projection of anything from .550 to .600 you might suffer a couple of inches in the test medium, but in the fields where the elephant roam, you would never know it.

Dropping to a nose projection of .400, there would be a difference in depth of penetration at that point I believe. Still better than a round nose however! And it would be straight!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
This discussion makes me recall the interview Buzz Charlton had with Ian Nyschens in Buzz's "Hunting the African Elephant" video. During the interview, Ian said the best elephant rifle he ever owned was a Westley Richards .500NE double.......and that was good enough for me. The rifle I had Butch Searcy build me for elephant hunting is a .500NE double.

I thought it was Sten Cedergren that said that about his 500NE...Guess I will have to watch it again...

Ed

Go with the 577, resale values will almost always be better. If you want practicality, go with 375 flanged.
JZ

Well boys, thanks for allowing me to join in with you on this! Been fun, but it is way past dark here, time to roost!

Couple of things before I head out, first, Biebs, take the 500, whack those barrels down to a workable 20 inches, shoot BBW#13s and get the weight down to a proper 8-8.5 lbs. This gun will handle and carry like a dream, and be real damn fast when you need it to be fast! Big long barrels won't get hung up on brush and crap either! Yeah, that would be the perfect double rifle I reckon! Still a little heavy though! Ya see, being an outsider, and not being caught up in nostalgia, nor willing to just accept things as they are, just because that's the way it's been for the last hundred years, gives me some advantage! HEH HEH.......... Yahoo!


Now with that out of the way, perfect double rifle nearly designed here, tomorrow Sam and I are going to start a thread alone just to cover the 500 Nitro work we started. It's going to be a long process, but we are going to investigate 500 Nitro inside and out. Going out of the box with it! Can't tell you where that might end up, but I can tell you we will take it further than it's ever been taken before! But it won't be done overnight. Right now we have 47 strings of data to start things off. There will be much more to be done! In fact, reckon I better start getting some BBW#13s in, only have a few boxes left and that won't do what we have planned. I am going to show you different traces, why one thing is good, and another might not be so good. Going to show you things that you have never thought of, never even heard of before. Going to show you things your chronograph and your case study can never tell you. Hell, I might start chopping Sams 500 Nitro barrel off, inch at a time to see what we get at least down to 16 inches! HEH HEH...and Off we go!

Thanks
Michael

Seriously??? Very easy answer - .577NE with the CEB's!! Carrying the .577 is not a problem, and you'll look cool too

I just wish I could get Paul to donate one of his MANY .600's, as a prop for the next GLOBAL HUNTER DVD set.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

I just wish I could get Paul to donate one of his MANY .600's, as a prop for the next GLOBAL HUNTER DVD set.

I might just do that if I could accompany it even if only as a "behind the scenes" guy

Need an on-site doc?

Aaron, I just ordered the set yesterday. Look forward to some African bush time, albeit vicariously, until later this year.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Aaron, I just ordered the set yesterday. Look forward to some African bush time, albeit vicariously, until later this year.

Biebs,

They are excellent productions.
In fact watching Zimbabwe/Namibia disc yet again right now!

Paul - I say, come on my friend - when do we leave?

Biebs, I hope ya like em - thank you.

At @ 60 years old I think I would be looking at a 450/400, or maybe a 450 3 1/4" Nitro.

Something I could carry 100% of the time myself, and something I could shoot from any position.

Something I would practice with till I could shoot it like a 22LR.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Paul - I say, come on my friend - when do we leave?

Working on it, working.g on it but it will happen in the near future

First: The absolutely wonderful thing about this site is the vast sharing of technical knowledge, and the degree to which that knowledge has rekindled and advanced the manufacture and resurgence of DRs and ammunition.


Second: The reason Baskin-Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream is that not everyone likes butter brickle. Similarly, we all have individual tastes and preferences when it comes firearms, of all types.

Third: The aforementioned advances in technology have made it possible to harvest elephant with everything from the venerable .375 H&H on up...given the proper bullets (of which we are blessed) and good shot placement. Therefore, the marksman/rifle interface becomes the most important factor (given a cartridge of proper calibre). Having participated in (but not having shot) an elephant hunt, my personal observations and opinion are that the.416 Rigby or.458 Lott are where elephant hunters should start their quest. Does anyone make a .458 Lott DR? I realize it is not a rimmed cartridge. All that said, know your physical capabilities, intimately know your DR, and be able to shoot it real well. If you can handle the .577 that's great...and fun...for however many rounds. My personal preference at age 71 is the .450 NE at 9.5 lbs...I can still carry it and keep up for long distances...and shoot it well when game is encountered...and would not hesitate to use it on elephant.

Fourth: Everyone keep up the great dialogue and encourage others to be afflicted with the "disease."

Fifth: Under other items...I will be in RSA for 90 days this coming summer (my fourth in RSA), working at a lodge, and attending one of the PH schools. Will also be detailed to Mozambique and Zambia as requirements dictate. I'll file a detailed report this fall.

Regards to all

DRSS(.450 NE, .375 H&H, .45-70)
NRA Benefactor
SCI Life Member
SASS Life Member
USAF (Ret) 31.5 years

Its better to shoot a small caliber well than a large caliber poorly.

A scoped 375 is your best bet! You'll never need anything else. No one can shoot anything larger very well. NO ONE!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
A scoped 375 is your best bet! You'll never need anything else. No one can shoot anything larger very well. NO ONE!

Todd,

You are right of course. Might as well give away my 600Nitro, 600 OK, the 500s, 450s, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
A scoped 375 is your best bet! You'll never need anything else. No one can shoot anything larger very well. NO ONE!

I totally disagree with all of the above.

ME TOO!!

ME THREE!

I keep telling some of these guys not to drink the bong water. Some refuse to listen!

quote:

At @ 60 years old I think I would be looking at a 450/400, or maybe a 450 3 1/4" Nitro.

Tony, but I'll be a pretty "studly" 60 :-)....and remember, 60 is the new 40 !!!

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
I keep telling some of these guys not to drink the bong water. Some refuse to listen!

Don,

I'm not exactly sure what a "bong" is or what bong water might do but I'll take your word for it as well as your advice ...

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

At @ 60 years old I think I would be looking at a 450/400, or maybe a 450 3 1/4" Nitro.

Tony, but I'll be a pretty "studly" 60 :-)....and remember, 60 is the new 40 !!!

BTW - Paul Chapman said "Hello" and told me yesterday that they will have some pretty new and cool stuff at SCI - stuff that literally came in on Wednseday icluding a 4-bore ...

Paul, that Army & Navy 500 NE they have is nice....it's a Westley Richards build.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I'm not exactly sure what a "bong" is or what bong water might do

Dang Doc, I know you went to college!!

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I'm not exactly sure what a "bong" is or what bong water might do

Dang Doc, I know you went to college!!

Sure but no time to play - work every day after class and two jobs on weekends - somebody had to pay for college and it wasn't going to be my parents.
Hope my kids have that same perspective ...

Now let's get back to making fun of Biebs ...

Dang Doc, I know you went to college!! [/QUOTE]

Yes, Don...but he passed!

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
A scoped 375 is your best bet! You'll never need anything else. No one can shoot anything larger very well. NO ONE!

I totally disagree with all of the above.

No Kidding?? Gotcha!!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
A scoped 375 is your best bet! You'll never need anything else. No one can shoot anything larger very well. NO ONE!

Todd,

You are right of course. Might as well give away my 600Nitro, 600 OK, the 500s, 450s, etc.

I know what you mean Doc. If you find a place that will take them, let me know as I need to give away my 416 Rigby and 500NE!!

But Doc, if you can't find a place to take them, I'll burden myself with finding them a new home. Just ship them to my address!

Doc:

PM sent.