A question for the African hunters and DR nuts...if you were going to have a double built strictly for Elephant, would you order it in 500 NE or 577? Trying to balance the issues of weight vs power vs ?

The answer you'll get is that the 500 NE is more than adequate and the 577NE no more effective.

Therefore you should go with the 577

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
A question for the African hunters and DR nuts...if you were going to have a double built strictly for Elephant, would you order it in 500 NE or 577? Trying to balance the issues of weight vs power vs ?

Oh Man--Fun! Well, don't have a double, so I beg forgiveness--However I don't think that is the question exactly, so 500 or 577?

As for rifle considerations only-I will take the lighter weight. And we know which one is lighter. The days of the "Great White Bwana" having someone tote his rifle is long gone. Great White Bwana has to tote his own load these days! I know I am not toting around 13 lbs. So right off the bat, forget 577 for me on that point alone.

Cartridge! Either cartridge is more than capable of doing the job and doing it well--IF--VERY VERY BIG F*****G IF--One has a proper bullet. I know what that bullet is, so cartridge is not a limiting factor since either will do nicely. 577 and other Ultra Bores are NOT VERY IMPRESSIVE until you put a proper bullet in them, in fact they are not much more than show off material "Mine is Bigger Than Yours". Put a good bullet in one, and those Ultras will tell you a new story!

Bullet! Oh my, here is where we as big bore shooters are blessed from the heavens! Is there any consideration beyond a BBW#13? Get real!

ME--I have always had a passion for 500 Nitro! It is THE CARTRIDGE above all CARTRIDGES. Rifles can get small for 500s, and that is very good. My own goals for my 500 MDM were to be 500 Nitros in a Winchester M70. If I could do that, it was good to me, and I did, and it is! Hands down no ifs, ands, nor buts, 500 Nitro!

Again, I beg forgiveness from you true Double Rifle guys for even posting, but it was Biebs, and just too good a subject to not make a comment!

Michael

Since most elephant hunts are tracking hunts and involve significant walking, I would favor the .500 NE. I think carrying an 11 pound .500 NE all day will be a lot easier than toting a 13-14 pound .577 NE. Some folks let the tracker carry the rifle and some areas like Botswana involve a little less walking, if that were the case, maybe a .577 NE would be fun. The only other time I might pick a .577 NE over the .500 NE would be if I was going to be hunting in really thick jesse, early season. The extra punch might be nice then.

I guess in my head, I'm just fighting the practicality of a 500 versus the coolness factor of a 577.

And I imagine a 500 NE regulated with CEB #13s would bring it to another level as well.

500 Nitro!! Significantly more punch than the 470 class weapons, similar recoil, no additional weight to carry.

All 3 of my Elephants collapsed in their tracks. What more can a 577 do than that?

See,

Totally predictable and practical advice.

Which is exactly why, knowing you as I do, you MUST get a 577!

BTW - Mike, didn't you recently get a 577 (or was that only in my sleep-deprived imagination)?

Back last season there was a fellow that took a 500 Nitro for elephant, using 570 BBW#13s. He went, shot a fine elephant, sent some photos to me and praised everything about the hunt. I asked him to post it for us, asked if I could post it, he did not want me to until he finished a story he was writing somewhere for some sort of mag rag. Never did get that story. Wish I had permission to post.

Yep--500 Nitro!

M

Mike and Todd,

What's a good, traditional and expected weight on a 500NE? I've had a few in the 10 pound range but don't know if that is light or heavy for caliber.

Thanks
Paul

Yes!! Both!! On my next hunt with Nixon in Feb. 2013 I plan on taking both. It will be an all Verney-Carron safari using BBW #13's.

Hey, Don answered!....my IGNORE feature must not be working....SAEED !!!!!!!! :-)

Now there's a reasonable solution...BOTH!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Yes!! Both!! On my next hunt with Nixon in Feb. 2013 I plan on taking both. It will be an all Verney-Carron safari using BBW #13's.

That's the way to do it!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Yes!! Both!! On my next hunt with Nixon in Feb. 2013 I plan on taking both. It will be an all Verney-Carron safari using BBW #13's.

Jon, the above being said, from a practical standpoint, if I could only take one, it would be the .500 Nitro. But why be practical?

Don, you're right...therein lies the struggle! Verney Carron round-body PHs, casehardened in 500 & 577? I wonder if I still have that Kebco "25% OFF" coupon around here somewhere? :-)

I like the "Both" answer!

Doc, concerning weight, mine is 10.5. Maybe a little light for the range but nice for hunting.

I'm booked with CMS for 2 more Ele hunts, 1 tuskless and 1 bull, and will be using the BBW#13's this time. They sure do shoot well in my rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I guess in my head, I'm just fighting the practicality of a 500 versus the coolness factor of a 577.

....................

There is nothing UNCOOL about a 500NE double rifle, and I can assure you, you will be far cooler after about twelve miles of tracking elephant with a 11 pound rifle, than you will with a 13 pound rifle on your shoulder!

..............................................

The Guru has spoken...thanks Mac! That was one of my concerns...approaching 60 and toting around a 13 1/2-14lb rifle. Decisions, decisions!

OK I'm going to jump in!! I've shot two elephant one with a 470NE and one with a 577NE. Both were frontal brains and both dropped in their tracks. Buffalo is a different story. 577 hammered the one I shot with it. Dropped in its track with a marginal shot. The buffalo with 470 took a few shots and they were perfect shots.
500 or 577 well I like both and both are usually built TOO heavy. My new 577 is going to be 13 lbs MAX and my 500s are 9.5 to 10.5 lbs. I like the lighter one especially after a long walk. I think the 500 makes the most since but I do love my 577. I think a 10.5 lb 577 would be perfect!

I think a good weight for a .500 would be in the 10.5 to 11 pound range; I would favor something closer to 11 pounds. I think a .577 should be at least 12.5 pounds and again, I would favor something heavier.

srose, more power to you if you think a 10.5 pound .577 would be perfect. It would be perfect to carry but I would hate to have to shoot it.

Yes, I do have a .577 VC. It weighes 13 pounds, 13 ounces. It would be a bear to carry on a long hike in the sun. I also think if I was having a .577 built, I would go with barrels in the 25" to 26" range. I think the longer barrels provide better balance which would be important if someone was going to lug the rifle around in the bush all day.

Jon:

Very interesting question. A gun just for elephant, huh? The .577 is one hell of a round but most .577s are built to heavy to carry very far so that would nix the .577 for me.

I have never owned a .500. However, I have shot several and have found that the .500 is just beyond my tolerable level of recoil. Every one I ever fired just seemed to kick the hell out of me, much more so than my my 500 Jeffery. So, I would say neither. At 11.5 pounds, my Blaser .470 is just too heavy for me to carry very far anymore but they can be built lighter. I know that some will say I am crazy but if I were to head out on an elephant hunt, the gun that I would grab would be my Krieghoff 500/416. It's only 10.5 pounds and IMHO, that's the perfect weight for that caliber.

I took 1 lb 12 oz of recoil reducers out of my VC 577 stock and it made that gun carry so much nicer. 26 inch barrels would probably feel better but you would have to make them much thinner or put weight in the butt to balance the VC. Cliff Walker a PH in Zim carries a 577 that has 26 inch barrels and weighs about 11.5 lbs. OH it feels so good and comes up nicely. My VC felt like a railroad tie compared to it.
Yes I like lighter doubles and don't mind shooting them. I actually think my 577 kicks less with the reducers out of it. I think several other VC owners took my advice and canned those heavy weights in the butts.

A 500 will more than do the job. A solid will penetrate, as my Grandfather once said, from intake to exhaust valve.

That said, there is something "just right" about letting the words "Five Seven Seven" roll off the tongue.

Go Big!

Rich

Dave, I took an Elephant last year with a 416 Rigby, and it was a bang/thud brain shot. It penetrated the skull transversly, got under the skin and traveled out to the tip of the ear. Penetration is the key, for sure, but adding momentum and frontal area, if you don't compromise penetration, is what I'm after.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Cliff Walker a PH in Zim carries a 577 that has 26 inch barrels and weighs about 11.5 lbs. OH it feels so good and comes up nicely.

NICE!

What make is that 577?

Jon, I like shooting all boomers from 4 bore down, but a 500NE is where I Would go hands down. It be very manageable in an 11 pound.. rifle. With those new solids Mike bangs out it will be a slammer.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Dave, I took an Elephant last year with a 416 Rigby, and it was a bang/thud brain shot. It penetrated the skull transversly, got under the skin and traveled out to the tip of the ear. Penetration is the key, for sure, but adding momentum and frontal area, if you don't compromise penetration , is what I'm after.

When it comes to Solids and Penetration-- I don't Negotiate and I Will Not Compromise!

All this is causing me to go back in time a bit, when Sam and I were testing and shooting both 500 Nitro and 577 here, looking for that "Perfect" Solid..........













All of which leads us to here

Michael question per your above post. Like we were talking a day or so ago about in regards to the small issue I am having with my 577 and BBW solids. I just noticed in your data above you have shown a 2 band BBW #13 750 grain solid with pretty damn good penetration of 70+ inches. Maybe I misunderstood when I mentioned that I would like to possibly order a run of bullets with the front three bands moved forward some. If I understood you had concern in moving them any closer then .600" from the front of the bullet because the penetration would suffer to greatly. Currently the solids I have now have about .700" in front of the most forward driving band to the front of the bullet. The two band bullet that I am talking about in your photo appears to be only have about .400 inch in front of the forward driving band. Was this an anomaly to get that much penetration?

Thanks
Mac

Oh and I gotta have one of those 1.000" 4000 grain solids you just posted. Tell me where to send the funds.

Mac

CCMDoc,

I'm not sure of the make of Cliff's 577, Ferlach maybe. I just can't remember. It was a older 1950s to 1960s gun.

Sam

So it looks like the 750g 577NE (.585") at 1973fps = 570g 510 Wells at 2323fps = 506g 500MDM at 2164fps @ 66" penetration.

No compromises there

So I'd still take the 577

McKay,

The short nose 2 band bullet for the 577 was one of the first proto types I made. I made the bullet so I could use RL-15 with no filler. The current bullet available from CEB is what is standard now.
As for the 1 caliber 4000 grain bullet that is a one of a kind issue!

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
CCMDoc,

I'm not sure of the make of Cliff's 577, Ferlach maybe. I just can't remember. It was a older 1950s to 1960s gun.

Sam

Thanks Sam - I'd like to have a big boomer that light! Truth is, so far I don't mind toting a 12-13lb rifle all day through the desert sands in Africa - traditional African carry works pretty well for balanced rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
McKay,

The short nose 2 band bullet for the 577 was one of the first proto types I made. I made the bullet so I could use RL-15 with no filler. The current bullet available from CEB is what is standard now.
As for the 1 caliber 4000 grain bullet that is a one of a kind issue!

Sam

OK I understand why you placed them there. But my question still remains. Does it not matter much in the penetration then if I have some made still staying with the 4 bands but moving the first three bands forward say .100-.250"?

Mac

Also Sam do you use a CNC Screw Machine or Lathe when you make up your bullets?

I don't think an elephant will notice the difference in penetration by moving the bands. Remember you get more penetration in animals than in paper pack.

I use an old Southbend lathe to make my bullets for testing.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
McKay,

The short nose 2 band bullet for the 577 was one of the first proto types I made. I made the bullet so I could use RL-15 with no filler. The current bullet available from CEB is what is standard now.
As for the 1 caliber 4000 grain bullet that is a one of a kind issue!

Sam

OK I understand why you placed them there. But my question still remains. Does it not matter much in the penetration then if I have some made still staying with the 4 bands but moving the first three bands forward say .100-.250"?

Mac

Mac

I had not paid much attention to "Nose Projection" until we made those short nose, I think around .460 or so from top band to nose, so they would work through the marlin lever guns--.458s for those with Marlins. I kept noticing that penetration was coming up shorter than expected for a BBW#13??? Bugged me for months on end. Average penetration would be in the low 40s. Should have been in the low 50s or mid 50s. OK, but it was still dead straight, so I left it. Then when I developed the 475 Super Short, there were no consideration of marlins in that caliber, so nose projection was .600, and penetration went from low 40s to 50s. Light bulb come on--had special runs made of the same .458s with a .600 projection and magically started penetrating to the 50s to mid 50s. All dead straight.

Now what was happening is that the short nose projection and band placement on those, the cavitation bubble was collapsing on the rear band causing drag. Longer nose projection put the rear of the bubble further away from the rear of the bullet, no drag on that last band, deeper penetration.

All standard Big Bore BBW#13s come with .700 Nose projections with the exception of my .500s, which somehow got a .585 nose projection from the beginning.

We learned that Nose Projection is actually one of the 8 or so major factors that effect Flat Nose Solid penetration.

Biebs, I am sorry, seems I have turned this into a bullet conversation, I am bad for that you know!

Michael

Well, you are in the Boolit Bitness!