quote:

CalPappas.com
"The Best in Double Rifles and African Hunting"
Friday, April 2, 2010
Over Stressed Rifling--a nonbeliever has now seen it!


OSR UPDATE. I stand corrected. The last day of the SCI show Graeme Wright came to the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter's Association's table and asked if I had a few minutes. I walked with him to meet a fellow who showed me his Hollis .450-400 3" double rifle--most likely a pre-WWI rifle. Graeme said this was an example of over stressed rifling and asked me to look at the outside of the right barrel by holding it up to the light and seeing the light reflecting down the length of the exterior. I saw an uninterrupted line of light from muzzle to breech. Next I held the rifle to the light and down the left barrel. Sure enough the line of reflected light was cut by shadows not quite perpendicular to the light but at an angle. This was not visible to the eye when held any other way and could not be felt by the fingers and I doubt it could be measured. Graeme mentioned this was a mild case of OSR and he has seen far worse. I was amazed. I looked over and over again, comparing both barrels, and there was no doubt about it--it was there.

Now, the main question (and one I can't answer) was WHY it was there. The owner of the rifle said it was due to a Barnes solid bullet of the old style with the solid shank--no grooves or bands. He was very upset and I asked him to come to Barnes with me to discuss the matter. He was too angry to do this even though this happened to his rifle approximately 20 years ago. So, back to the question of why. I have no information as to the bullet, the velocity it was shot at, the powder charge, pressure, diameter, etc...

Graeme had an interesting theory. In Australia, where they have lots of doubles, they have Woodleigh bullets and the soft nose, lead-cored, bullets work just fine. In the states, however, Woodleighs were not available in any great quantity years ago and American shooters shot Barnes and other monolithic bullets such as A-Square. So, we may have more problems of this nature here in the states.

That being said, I will be honest with the readers of this site. I have shot Barnes banded solids 100 times in my Wilkes with no problem and upon my return to Alaska I will examine the barrels as I did in Reno today. Even though I am witness to this in the one rifle I saw I will still stand by my former statements that with the banded solids that are .002" undersize and with the bands to lessen pressure and allow for displaced metal to flow they are fine to shoot. At least in my rifle, anyway. Graeme stated this may be the answer--a bit undersize and with bands--but the older solids were a hard metal and the solid shank did cause higher pressure.

I don't know if pressure is the culprit or the fluidity of the metal. I'm not a metallurgist. Older steels are softer than modern steel. Double rifle barrel walls are thinner than many modern rifles. My .600 barrel walls are much thicker than the .450-400's walls I saw today. That's all I can tell you and that is what I saw. I will post this to the forums upon my return home.

The photo at the top of this post is a pair of Barnes Banded Solids I shot through my .600 Wilkes. It is two of about 100 shots and not a sign of OSR. The answer (I agree with Graeme) is the bands and an undersize bullet. I had enough confidence to shoot them through my vintage .600 and they worked fine with no damage to my rifle.
Cal

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


The one problem I had with a Barnes solid was with the early one with no driving bands just a solid shank and very hard brass. I fired one round in a double barrel rifle chambered for 458 RCBS cartridge, that one shot locked the barrels closed, and the rifle had to be taken apart then broken over my knee to get it open. It evidently raised the chamber pressure so high that the rifle couldn't be opened with the fore stock on the rifle. This load with a 500 gr load with a Hornady soft point was a pussy cat, in comparison. I still have that box of bullets that I will be glad to donate to anyone who disbelieves this post. There wasno sign of OSR, but this was a Pedersoli double re-chambered from 45-70 to 458RCBS and the barrels are very thick all the way to the muzzles, and hot loads of 45-70 shot fine in this rifle with 500 gr Hornady jacketed bullets.



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Originally posted by cal pappas:

Cal Pappas (where did you get Papus?)

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Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Cal, also, you and I had a detailed discussion on a previous thread regarding your article that Mac cited.

I remember pointing out that it seemed awfully fishy to me that the owner of the rifle was adamant about blaming the Barnes bullet but was unwilling to speak to them about it when they were right there and he could offer the rifle as evidence. I don't know about you but if I owned a pre war vintage DR worth tens of thousands of dollars that I thought some bullet manufacturer ruined by using their product, and I believed it to be the case to the exception of all other causes, I'd be at least willing to ask them about it.

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Originally posted by Bill73:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Cal, also, you and I had a detailed discussion on a previous thread regarding your article that Mac cited.

I remember pointing out that it seemed awfully fishy to me that the owner of the rifle was adamant about blaming the Barnes bullet but was unwilling to speak to them about it when they were right there and he could offer the rifle as evidence. I don't know about you but if I owned a pre war vintage DR worth tens of thousands of dollars that I thought some bullet manufacturer ruined by using their product, and I believed it to be the case to the exception of all other causes, I'd be at least willing to ask them about it.

Quite honestly,it would have been a waste of time,the owner of that rifle knew that Barnes would never acknowledge that their bullets caused the damage,it would have been suicidal to have done so financially,they would have used all their resources to walk away from the liability,this would be my guess,as we all know it would have been an easy defense anyways,as evidenced by the disbelief showed here by you & so many others,I wonder why the design of the the original solid was improved if it was so perfect?

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
From an engineering standpoint I find this problem quite interesting. It would seem that there are many opinions but very little real information or data. Has anyone had any of these ruptured barrels analyzed by a metallurgist? A good examination could tell us a lot. Huvius has hit upon something that I have wondered about; the tapered bore. From other posts it appears that this was done with black powder rifles. Was this practice carried over into the smokeless era? Also were any of these rifles ever choke bored, ie constricted in the last few inches of the barrel? Until we get a nice pile of failed barrels to examine or someone wants to spend a lot of time and $$ in a lab everyone will have to have to keep guessing.
C.G.B.

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TODD
Mac, there is so much wrong with this post I hardly know where to start. For one, you state there was no OSR. Hell, I didn't even have to see the rifle and I'll agree with you on that one.

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TODD
The
Second, this was a rifle proofed for 45-70 re-chambered for a hotter load, which in and of itself is not an issue, but more info could be warranted.

Probably the biggest issue I have with the post is assuming one bullet is safe to shoot with the same load as another bullet. Everyone knows one of the first things you learn reloading is: change one component and you need to work up again. It surprises me not that an original Barnes solid and a Hornady soft would have different max loads. The fact it locked up your rifle proves nothing negative concerning the Barnes bullet. What it does prove is: Change one component and you need to work up again!

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TODD
For that matter, take any bullet manufacturer's reloading manual and you'll see differences in max load recommendations between their soft and solid offerings. Sometimes significantly different. Mix and match bullet manufacturers and bullet construction types and those differences can be even larger.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Originally posted by MacD37:


The one problem I had with a Barnes solid was with the early one with no driving bands just a solid shank and very hard brass. I fired one round in a double barrel rifle chambered for 458 RCBS cartridge, that one shot locked the barrels closed, and the rifle had to be taken apart then broken over my knee to get it open. It evidently raised the chamber pressure so high that the rifle couldn't be opened with the fore stock on the rifle. This load with a 500 gr load with a Hornady soft point was a pussy cat, in comparison. I still have that box of bullets that I will be glad to donate to anyone who disbelieves this post. There wasno sign of OSR, but this was a Pedersoli double re-chambered from 45-70 to 458RCBS and the barrels are very thick all the way to the muzzles, and hot loads of 45-70 shot fine in this rifle with 500 gr Hornady jacketed bullets.



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quote:

TODD
Mac, there is so much wrong with this post I hardly know where to start. For one, you state there was no OSR. Hell, I didn't even have to see the rifle and I'll agree with you on that one.

The fact that the barrel walls of that rifle are three times the thickness of a normal double rifle, all the way to the muzzles may have something to do with it not showing OSR, YA THANK?

quote:

TODD
The
Second, this was a rifle proofed for 45-70 re-chambered for a hotter load, which in and of itself is not an issue, but more info could be warranted.

Probably the biggest issue I have with the post is assuming one bullet is safe to shoot with the same load as another bullet. Everyone knows one of the first things you learn reloading is: change one component and you need to work up again. It surprises me not that an original Barnes solid and a Hornady soft would have different max loads. The fact it locked up your rifle proves nothing negative concerning the Barnes bullet. What it does prove is: Change one component and you need to work up again!

Todd I have been loading everything from 22 hornet to 577 NE and wild cat loads since you were in grade school. I am well aware of reducing loads of a new chambering and new bullet, working up to workable loads, The Barnes bullet was loaded into a new brass, and with a squib load with the brass no drive bands, solid shank HARD brass. If that bullet had been a North fork, it is my belief there would have been not problem at all.

quote:

TODD
For that matter, take any bullet manufacturer's reloading manual and you'll see differences in max load recommendations between their soft and solid offerings. Sometimes significantly different. Mix and match bullet manufacturers and bullet construction types and those differences can be even larger.

To top this off You mention of your statement seeing the spirals on the barrel of a Ruger 77 has nothing to do with OSR. Those are the result of COLD HAMMER FORGING and Ruger is not the only rifle where you will find those that have not been turned off by the maker. Like Cal, and Mark Cash I have seen the real thing on a double rifle that belonged to a member of DRSS on a A&N double on one barrel. That was about the last 8 inches of the barrel to the muzzles.


Todd it is your right to believe what ever you want, but I see no reason to call anyone a liar when they tell you they have seen this effect on double rifle barrels. The information that was gleaned from several people that are the builders of fine double rifle and shotgun like H&H and Purdy who see this effect of rifles they made, and have re-barreled because of it. I supposed those people are seeing "BIG FOOT" along those of us here who have seen it first hand.


I realize this will have no effect on your opinion on this matter, but it is simply your opinion, with no proof that those who have seen it first hand are stupid, or at least just liars. If you haven't seen OSR then it must not exist. RIGHT?

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So I dug out that discussion in his book.
.........

This pursuit required him to use a compressed load of TB. Uh OH!!

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Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

So I dug out that discussion in his book.
.........

This pursuit required him to use a compressed load of TB. Uh OH!!

Please provide the passage from Graeme's book WORD for WORD where he states that he was using a COMPRESSED LOAD.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
You can't provide that passage in his book because it doesn't exist.

When it comes to what Graeme wrote in his book, in fairness to the man, perhaps you could first check that what you are claiming he did or said is correct.

This is not the only time that you have misread, misinterpreted, misunderstood and misquoted what was stated in that book.

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It makes sense to me not to shoot hard bullets through a vintage rifle

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Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

It makes sense to me not to shoot hard bullets through a vintage rifle

That would mean steel/copper jacketed Woodleighs and Hornadys for starters as pressure tests showed they generated significantly more pressure than softer monos made of copper (like Barnes)

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37:


The one problem I had with a Barnes solid was with the early one with no driving bands just a solid shank and very hard brass. I fired one round in a double barrel rifle chambered for 458 RCBS cartridge, that one shot locked the barrels closed, and the rifle had to be taken apart then broken over my knee to get it open. It evidently raised the chamber pressure so high that the rifle couldn't be opened with the fore stock on the rifle. This load with a 500 gr load with a Hornady soft point was a pussy cat, in comparison. I still have that box of bullets that I will be glad to donate to anyone who disbelieves this post. There wasno sign of OSR, but this was a Pedersoli double re-chambered from 45-70 to 458RCBS and the barrels are very thick all the way to the muzzles, and hot loads of 45-70 shot fine in this rifle with 500 gr Hornady jacketed bullets.



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quote:

by Todd
Mac, there is so much wrong with this post I hardly know where to start. For one, you state there was no OSR. Hell, I didn't even have to see the rifle and I'll agree with you on that one.

Second, this was a rifle proofed for 45-70 re-chambered for a hotter load, which in and of itself is not an issue, but more info could be warranted.

Probably the biggest issue I have with the post is assuming one bullet is safe to shoot with the same load as another bullet. Everyone knows one of the first things you learn reloading is: change one component and you need to work up again. It surprises me not that an original Barnes solid and a Hornady soft would have different max loads. The fact it locked up your rifle proves nothing negative concerning the Barnes bullet. What it does prove is: Change one component and you need to work up again!


For that matter, take any bullet manufacturer's reloading manual and you'll see differences in max load recommendations between their soft and solid offerings. Sometimes significantly different. Mix and match bullet manufacturers and bullet construction types and those differences can be even larger.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Having not seen the data referenced, but having read that one should back off powder charges when using a mono bullet of the same weight, I would like to see the data. Could someone quote it, or link to it? Specifically, since Barnes Cu mono bullets have lower density, are we comparing two bullets of the same profile; or of the same weight? A lighter (less dense) bullet is going to produce less pressure with the same propellant charge, because it's lighter, not because it squeezes down the bore easier.

I have to believe anything with a lead core, with the possible exception of a steel jacketed bullet, is going to take rifling more easily than a copper or brass monometal bullet. And, if the same weight, is going to produce less pressure.


Again, talk to the ML people. They will tell you that hard lead bullets are much harder to ram down a barrel than pure (soft) lead.

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Originally posted by cal pappas:
Of course we don't hear of this happening on bolt rifles or old lever rifles.

Cal

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Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Of course we don't hear of this happening on bolt rifles or old lever rifles.

Cal

Or in vintage drillings!
If any rifle has a built in propensity to exhibit OSR it would be a thin barreled drilling.
Maybe those guys are just smarter in what they put down their barrels than us double rifle guys...

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
On the issue of “traditional” solids with copper clad steel jackets, were not the “original” Brit nitro Express bullets nickel jacketed and not steel?

Sorry, I’m way to airport and had to ask.