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There is a long, long thread over on NitroExpress.com concerning OSR - mainly an argument between those who believe and those who don't. Following Mark Cash's death it has percolated to the top again. http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post144117 Nearly 10 years ago I proposed a challenge. There were no takers. Here's a quote where I dredged it back up today: I posted this on October 24, 2009:
The above quote is a challenge I posted to this very thread nearly 10 years ago, on October 24, 2009. You can go back and find it like I just did. I still think it is a fair challenge. There was no response to my challenge. I suppose Barnes didn't want to take the risk. Notice that the challenge involved the old Barnes "X" bullets. Those are the culprits that put spiral marks on a lot of double rifle barrels. Curl | |||
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While I believe that hard bullets will damage barrels, frankly, from my (admittedly not professional) knowledge base, I find it awfully hard to buy the barrels in effect reverse engrave the rifling. I’ve shot out a barrel using the TSX and banded solid. It turned the barrel into a smoothbore, not reverse engraved it. Softer steel supposedly is more elastic than the harder varieties, and that is what I am hearing here, that the old barrels are softer. I’ve avoided Nosler E-Tips and Hornady GMX as well as old X and XLC after seeing sparks fly out of the barrel with old Barnes X bullets, but I have not had any reverse engraving issues (admittedly a much more modern gun) and frankly, the old .25-06 that I shot the old X bullets in is still shooting fine. Heck, Noslers current solid iteration is a non relief bronze solid. I can’t imagine they would be selling this if they thought it was an issue. Given this makes no sense metallurgically, unless someone is going to do some controlled lab testing and give reproducible results of outside rifling engraving, you are going to get nowhere with Barnes... and the current outfit- part of Remington- wasn’t involved in making the old style x bullets or solid shank bronze solids. I do buy that the bronze monometals are harder on the bore than the others, just not the reverse engraving. I have no clue what causes that, or what exactly it even is. | |||
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This has been posted, and posted over an over, I say no matter what one thinks something caused the "OSR" on double rifle barrels, and whether one believes it exists, means nothing IT DOES, and it is up to the individual to decide whether to chance experimenting with their very expensive double rifle, and live with the outcome. I for one will not shoot any other mono-metal bullet in my double rifle other than North Fork copper driving band bullets in my doubles NEW or OLD! ………………………………………………..BYE!!!!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Mac, You say it exists. Ok. What is it? Do you have photographs? Do you have micrometer readings? On this thread I have seen it called cosmetic, also called clear expressed rifling on the outside of the bore, etc. I’m not sure what exactly it is... is the inside of the barrel now a smooth tube with the rifling on the outside? Is it a delamination of the barrel? All I really get is some folks are demanding that Barnes pay damages sight unseen, which sounds pretty damn unreasonable. I don’t know if I have enough northforks to keep hunting for the rest of my career; and that assumes that I don’t get something other than a .470 down the road. When my .416 went belly up, I paid to rebarrel it. I didn’t expect Barnes to pay the freight. I don’t disagree with your fundamental point that you choose what you use- in my mind, monos are harder on the gun; so is the performance worth the incremental damage? You make the call. You pay the piper. | |||
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Not taking part in the discussion on OSR as such but in terms of discussion on construction of early bullets, below is a good visual of RWS steel jacketed solid construction. Like Kynoch bullets they are quite thin in the shank area and have a relatively open base which does allow the soft lead core to swage down if necessary. Many early barrels varied in bore size but this type of bullet presented no problems as it easily swaged to fit. The only one of the 404J RWS solid bullets shown in the photo that I have recovered from an animal went full length from chest to rear hip of a buffalo and lodged in the hip joint neatly between the ball and socket. The shank had swaged down to a fish tail with lead protruding from the base. Generally Kynoch cartridges loaded with steel jacketed bullets were denoted with an /S after the date numerals and letters on the ammo packets.  | |||
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Take a piece of steel 1/4" thick. Hit it with a ball peen hammer. Inspect the other side. (Steel does not compress permanently, the material has to go somewhere. The only "where" it can go is to the outside of the barrel.) Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Eagle, this is a properly made steel jacketed bullet. and a properly made mono-metal bullet is, IMO, safe as well, but a bullet that is made of solid, very hard brass with no place for the engraved metal to go when engraved by the rifling is the ,IMO the problem. The core of the bullet shown above soft lead with the only thick portion of the steel jacket is in the part that doesn't contact the bore's lands and groves. In my opinion, this type is safe as long as the diameter of the shank in no larger than depth of the groves. However a solid with the so called driving bands that gives the engraved metal of the bullet a place to go in between the bands, also in my opinion a safe bullet as well. However the bullet I have a problem with is full groove size solid hard brass with no place for the engraved metal to go is a PROBLEM! The early brass solids made by BARNES the shank is full groove size, and with no bands cut into the shank to give the displaced metal a place to go, is, again in my opinion, a real problem. Even the newer ones with very wide bands could still be a problem. The North Fork COPPER bullets with very thin driving bands along with the softer copper again IMO, a properly made mono metal bullet as long as the groves between the driving bands are deep enough to accept the displaced metal of the driving band a place to go. These NF bullets are the only mono-metal bullets I will shoot in my double rifles! Others may do what ever they want with their doubles. I have no way to post pictures of the bullets I'm describing, which in this post. If I could this post would be far more clear! I will gladly send a sample of the bullets, both North Fork and a pair of the Barnes non-groove one a .458, and a .375 to anyone who can post pictures of them here! Just give me an address to send the bullets! I'll be glad to offer those as evidence if anyone wants to have it, ………………………………………………………... Mac …………………………………………………………. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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