A. Your foundation is a Bailey Bradshaw Farquharson falling block double rifle, (so
higher pressure loads are fine, but still MUST be flanged brass per B.B.)
B. You're hoping to put together the money for one, or at most two, trips to Africa
for big a bodied elephant, (tuskless most likely) a buffalo and a hippo,
C. The remainder of your hunting will be one trip to Alaska for moose / black bear
and all the rest in the lower 48 states; which will be year in, year out the over-
whelming majority.

Lets have all the opinions we can get here on the following three questions:

1- From big bull elephant down to little southern USA deer, what is the MOST
diversely usable single caliber for world wide game in a SxS double rifle?

2- What should the rifle weigh in the caliber you select?

3- What should barrel length be? (I like bolt action rifles to have 18 - 20
inch bbls as they're SO HANDY that way!)

Easy

450-400

24" barrels

9.5 pounds

Fitted for Recknagel swing mounts for which you can fit several different scopes of different power and design.

If elephant were not on your list I'd have said the 375 Flanged at 8 pounds otherwise same dimensions and scope mounts.

So for the sake of one elephant I carry a rifle that's 1.5 pounds, (aka 19%)
heavier than the 8 pound .375 Flng Mag for every remaining hunt for the rest
of my life; even though a zillian elephant have been killed by .375 H&H Mag
ammunition? (Not being nasty, just further picking your brain. )

I would say you got the correct advice from Doc the first time.

I would also say Doc got it right, because it's awfully hard to go on just one elephant hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I would say you got the correct advice from Doc the first time.

With his proviso I'd say he had it right both times!

I could live my whole life from South Texas to the Zimbabwe with a good 8 pound 375Flanged double rifle with a quick detach illuminated low powered scope!

......................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
So for the sake of one elephant I carry a rifle that's 1.5 pounds, (aka 19%)
heavier than the 8 pound .375 Flng Mag for every remaining hunt for the rest
of my life; even though a zillian elephant have been killed by .375 H&H Mag
ammunition? (Not being nasty, just further picking your brain. )

Remember Roy Scheider in Jaws when the great white breaches the surface? "You're gonna need a bigger boat..."

You'll remember that line when you're among real elephants in Africa.

If you've already been there, done that I am sure you are nodding your head. If you've not, then no picture, television show or zoo can prepare you for the reality of their immense size. Just can't be adequately captured.

And no one can argue that a 375 works - of course it does.

But yes, absolutely I would prefer the heavier 450-400 for the rest of my life even if only one elephant, Cape buffalo and hippo were on my list. Just eat some prunes, have a nice BM and your total weight will be the same as if you had the 8lb 375.

Heck, I carry a 13 pound 600 for everything!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Easy

450-400

24" barrels

9.5 pounds

Fitted for Recknagel swing mounts for which you can fit several different scopes of different power and design.

+1
The 450/400 3" NE is the clear choice for me as well. It is my favorite double rifle caliber. I took a tuskless elephant and a cape buffalo with my Searcy in August and did not feel the least bit undergunned.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I would say you got the correct advice from Doc the first time.

With his proviso I'd say he had it right both times!

I could live my whole life from South Texas to the Zimbabwe with a good 8 pound 375Flanged double rifle with a quick detach illuminated low powered scope!

......................................................................

I didn't mean to imply that Doc was right the first time and wrong the second. I meant to say that he was absolutely correct, taking the two posts together.

To take it a step further, I would actually argue for a 500NE as 1) there's no such thing as 1 trip to Africa, especially if after Dangerous Game so you'll quickly want something larger than the 450/400 and 2) you'll need a heavy rifle and light rifle and either the 375 Flanged or 450/400 will work nicely for the light rifle and 3) once you've made that DG trip to Africa, those trips to Alaska are going to take a back seat priority anyway and you'll gladly hunt with a M70 when you do stay stateside. I know you are factoring in costs and thinking that you "may" get to go once but I'm telling you here and now, that isn't the way it is. I thought the exact same thing, as many of us have. Once you break into that drug called Africa, you'll never get that monkey off your back. You'll sell off all kinds of heirlooms, take on second and third jobs, whatever it takes to keep going back. You think I kidding?

YMMV however!

When you try to pick one double rifle caliber to handle all species ranging from 100 lb animals to animals of many tons, you have to give up some usefulness at both ends of the spectrum. John Taylor answered this question in African Rifles and Cartridges, his advice was a 375 Flanged. On small animals, you will be over gunned and somewhat more range limited than with say a 270 or 7mm Mag. You will of necessity have to pass on some longer shots. On elephant the 375 is marginal but it can safely be used, esp. with PH back up. Here you would be wise to pick where you hunt. You would be wise to avoid the thick Jesse.

465H&H

I like the 450-400, I like the bore diameter, and I like the 400gr bullet.

I also like the 375 FM, the more I play with it the better I like it. The majority of my 9.3x74r guns have gone away and been replaced by the 375FM.

But.... Last July I spent some time in AU trying out the 375R V-C cartridge on cull buffalo and pigs. It may not suit everyone for every situation but a premium 375 bullet (I used CEB's) at 2800fps ( think of 375 Wtby ballistics with a big rimmed case ) was a quick death on 15 buffalo and accurate enough to head shoot 3 pigs out to 100 yards. I must confess I had a low power Trijicon scope mounted on the double (my eyes are not good enough when you have animals standing in shadows for iron sights). On two different occasions I was able to shoot 4 buffalo with 4 shots and have them all drop within 50 yards of each other.

Just something else to think about, but with the new generation of premium bullets they kill better than the bore diameter might otherwise suggest especially since you are looking for 1 cartridge to do it all.

Ken, what is the availability of brass for the 375R V-C cartridge and should it not be successful over the long term, can it be made from other, more popular cartridges?

Also, will V-C build a 500/416? You and I have spoken about this chambering in the past. I know you don't particularly care for it since it isn't traditional, but I like the Rigby ballistics in a double!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Ken, what is the availability of brass for the 375R V-C cartridge and should it not be successful over the long term, can it be made from other, more popular cartridges?

Also, will V-C build a 500/416? You and I have spoken about this chambering in the past. I know you don't particularly care for it since it isn't traditional, but I like the Rigby ballistics in a double!

I have lots of brass and dies for the 375R VC, not sure if it can be formed, never looked into it.

The 500/416 is not a problem for V-C to chamber for. We have done a 500/465 and a few others on special request.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:

but with the new generation of premium bullets they kill better than the bore diameter might otherwise suggest especially since you are looking for 1 cartridge to do it all.

+1 The .375 FL or even the 9,3X74 are way better guns today then they were in years gone by because of the superb bullets we have now from both North Fork and CEB. If you want just one gun for everything, pick up a 500/.416 and load it with 400 grain BBW#13s and 400 grain NF cup point solids.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Easy

450-400

24" barrels

9.5 pounds

Though 24" barrels make for a sweet-handling rifle, I feel that the .450/.400's marginal ballistics for dangerous game suggest the few extra fps you get from 26-inchers might be worthwhile, esp. if regulated to Hornady's tropical load.

Thanks guys. Regarding KEBCO's post and the suggestion of 375R V-C I went here:
http://www.verney-carron.us/de...er_Verney-Carron.pdf
but I saw no info on it. So if anyone has the brass dimensions for this new caliber
please post them. The idea of forming such an uncommon caliber's brass from much
more common brass is IMPORTANT. More bullet diameters need to be fired from 45-120
brass. With it's .505 inch base measurement and 3.25 inch length, (obviously it can be
cut to 3 inch or what ever) that could lead to GREAT things. RIP...???
RobGunBuilder...??? Can you start with .375 300 grain CEB BBW 13 please?

CIP Specs, if you want I can email the same sheet and I am sure it will easier to read.

ken@kebcollc.com

The original design was to be able to clean up a belted 375 chamber and have a rimmed case for better extraction/ejection.
Not all guns are suitable for conversion,some 375 H&H guns will not have barrels with suitable thickness after rechambering.

.450NE

10 pounds

26"

Go big or go home.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Go big or go home.

+1

.600 NE (vintage, of course)

15 1/2 pounds

like 24", but have 26"

Anyone have a hack saw I can borrow?
Cheers all,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
.600 NE (vintage, of course)

15 1/2 pounds

like 24", but have 26"

Anyone have a hack saw I can borrow?
Cheers all,
Cal

Mine is also 26" but modern and 13 pounds.

Not everyone is as crazy as we are ... But it would be more fun if they were!

I'll agree with the 450/400. But my choice would be 26 inch barrels. After owning two doubles in this caliber and seeing two more running factory ammo over the chrono my opinion the ammo they are regulated with could be improved. Bump it up to a consistent 2,100 fps instead of the 1,950-1,980 that I've seen.
My Heym 450/400 PH would be the last double to leave my possesion.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I'll agree with the 450/400. But my choice would be 26 inch barrels. After owning two doubles in this caliber and seeing two more running factory ammo over the chrono my opinion the ammo they are regulated with could be improved. Bump it up to a consistent 2,100 fps instead of the 1,950-1,980 that I've seen.

With another vote up above preferring greater than 24" barrels in the 450/400 I am indeed interested in what others think of this. The reason I ask is because I plan for my first double to be a 450/400 and I'll need to decide on barrel length. I plan to have it scoped, on occasion if that makes a difference in your opinion.

Aside from asthetics, do you see a meaningful advantage of 24, 25, or 26 inch barrels?

Not to be a party pooper but how many of the posters on this thread want to admit they hunt everything with only one rifle?

Seriously?

We've all heard the line that more or less goes,
BEWARE THE MAN WITH ONLY ONE RIFLE; HE PROBABLY KNOWS HOW TO USE IT.

And let's face it, doing your thing with one rifle is much simpler,
and cheaper, and dare I say less stressful. You know your rifle, your
loads and your scope, ( IF you plug one in permanent or detachable).

If a person is picking betwen .458 and .475 caliber and has NO stuff
for either caliber yet, I say go with the better RESALE choice since
You Never Know... So which is stronger in resale, 450 NE or 470 NE?

{Email sent to Ken (KEBCO).}

quote:

Originally posted by Fo Fiddy NE:

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I'll agree with the 450/400. But my choice would be 26 inch barrels. After owning two doubles in this caliber and seeing two more running factory ammo over the chrono my opinion the ammo they are regulated with could be improved. Bump it up to a consistent 2,100 fps instead of the 1,950-1,980 that I've seen.

With another vote up above preferring greater than 24" barrels in the 450/400 I am indeed interested in what others think of this. The reason I ask is because I plan for my first double to be a 450/400 and I'll need to decide on barrel length. I plan to have it scoped, on occasion if that makes a difference in your opinion.

Aside from asthetics, do you see a meaningful advantage of 24, 25, or 26 inch barrels?

Aside from asthetics, no meaningful advantage of the longer tubes though I prefer them myself. Modern powders allow one to easily hit much higher velocities safely than original loadings if one prefers and since this is built to order, Bailey can regulate it to whatever load is chosen.

The OP wrote he prefers barrels of 18-20" in his bolt guns. Neither he nor his chosen game couldn't care less about 40-50fps difference due to barrel length - assuming factory ammo was used and velocity did suffer a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Not to be a party pooper but how many of the posters on this thread want to admit they hunt everything with only one rifle?

Seriously?

I try to use something different every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Fo Fiddy NE:

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I'll agree with the 450/400. But my choice would be 26 inch barrels. After owning two doubles in this caliber and seeing two more running factory ammo over the chrono my opinion the ammo they are regulated with could be improved. Bump it up to a consistent 2,100 fps instead of the 1,950-1,980 that I've seen.

With another vote up above preferring greater than 24" barrels in the 450/400 I am indeed interested in what others think of this. The reason I ask is because I plan for my first double to be a 450/400 and I'll need to decide on barrel length. I plan to have it scoped, on occasion if that makes a difference in your opinion.

Aside from asthetics, do you see a meaningful advantage of 24, 25, or 26 inch barrels?

I like the shorter 24" barrels. Makes the gun handier. In my Merkel 500NE with 24" barrels, I was getting 2150fps with both IMR 4007 SSC and RL-15 using the CEB bullets. In my VC 577NE with 24" barrels, I chronoed the 750gr CEB solids last Saturday at 2106 fps using RL-15. Point being that you can achieve standard velocities with the proper components out of a 24" barrel. That being said, it really comes down to aesthetics and personal preference.

I'm with Tendrams, only 24 inch barrels.


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Easy

450-400

24" barrels

9.5 pounds

Fitted for Recknagel swing mounts for which you can fit several different scopes of different power and design.

THIS...except I would make mine 26" barrels

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Easy

450-400

24" barrels

9.5 pounds

Fitted for Recknagel swing mounts for which you can fit several different scopes of different power and design.

THIS...except I would make mine 26" barrels

As would I ... but only for aesthetic reasons.

I can't speak for other's experiences but Hornady factory DGX and DGS chrono'ed 2074 and 2048fps respectively out of 24" barrels on one of my 450-400s and 2079/2084 out of my other 450-400 also with a 24" barrel. First Skyscreen at 15' from the muzzle for all measurements, temperatures in the 50s for the first and 60s for the second double.

Yep, I like the longer barrels for that reason as well. I haven't had issues with factory loads ..OR factory regulation.....

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I can't speak for other's experiences but Hornady factory DGX and DGS chrono'ed 2074 and 2048fps respectively out of 24" barrels on one of my 450-400s and 2079/2084 out of my other 450-400 also with a 24" barrel. First Skyscreen at 15' from the muzzle for all measurements, temperatures in the 50s for the first and 60s for the second double.

Glad to hear you're getting that from 24-inch barrels, though it's still a tropical load compared with Kynoch's.

I wonder if another couple of inches might add 30 or 50fps, bringing it within a bull's roar of the English ammo or the .404, its magazine successor.

I'm not against short barrels in bigger calibres where you have power aplenty and the leverage of heavy muzzles would really be noticed. Imaging holding up a 4-bore db rifle with 28-inch barrels.

quote:

Imaging holding up a 4-bore db rifle with 28-inch barrels.

Don't imagine, ask Cal what his 28" 4-bore DR feels like

HEAVY, I figure!

Bob

I really don't know what the English makers were thinking when making a big 4-bore with long barrels. As O-Bob said, my 4 has 28-inch tubes and is very muzzle heavy. The rifle weighs 22 pounds but it would be much better if that weight were between the hands and not out front. It still kicks like hell but it is more fun to shoot now that accurate loads have been developed with both ball and conical.
Cheers, all
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I really don't know what the English makers were thinking when making a big 4-bore with long barrels. As O-Bob said, my 4 has 28-inch tubes and is very muzzle heavy. The rifle weighs 22 pounds but it would be much better if that weight were between the hands and not out front. It still kicks like hell but it is more fun to shoot now that accurate loads have been developed with both ball and conical.
Cheers, all
Cal

My 450 3 1/4 feels nicely balanced with the 28 inch barrels. Lot less metal sticking out there compared to your Howitzer I guess.

Cheers
Jim

I have owned various English, American and German big bore doubles over the last 30 years. Barrel lengths have varied between 24" and 28". I really can't say that I prefer one length over the other as I couldn't see much difference among them in the field. The only exception was the 28" barreled gun. It was a very early Westley Richards drop lock in 470. It weighed over 12 lbs and was too heavy and too long in barrel for comfortable carry and balance. I didn't keep it long although it was a beautifully made rifle. Now if I have a choice, I will select 25 or 26" barrels on my big bore doubles. But having that length vs 24" barrels would not be a deal breaker for me.

465H&H

My 450 3 1/4 feels nicely balanced with the 28 inch barrels. Lot less metal sticking out there compared to your Howitzer I guess.
Cheers
Jim

Hi Jim:
You are correct a smaller caliber with longer barrels balances fine and your .450 sure is a fine rifle! Years ago I had a .577 nitro with heavy 28-inch barrels and it was nearly as muzzle heavy as my 4-bore. I sold it for that reason. Both of my old .600s have 26-inch barrels and balance well as there is so much weight in the action. Even so, I still would like 24-inch barrels on any caliber larger than .500.
On another note. If you are at the gun show in Palmer this weekend, stop by my table. An advance copy of my new book on the bore rifles will be there for the double rifle gents to look through.
Cheers,
Cal

My Gibbs 450NE which I just found out is a few years older than I thought, now dated 1902-3, has 28" barrels those lovely long slender tubes help make the gun a delight to shoot and lively between the hands and I've never once felt handicapped when carrying the gun in tight cover. then again a shoot upland birds in our New England coverts with an english gun and 30" tubes so perhaps I'm a bubble or two off center to begin with. Barrel length need to compliment the gun both physically and aesthetically.