quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Good choice; my .450 Sabatti performs fully as well as my Krieghoff which cost exactly twice as much. Now that I think about it, someone after the factory must have altered the sear engagements on your 500. No factory would have let that pass. Do not be concerned with the comments of the nay sayers.

dpcd, I must disagree with your sentence in bold above! It has become quite evident SABATTI lets lots of things pass!

..........................................................................

Mac:

The only thing that I can agree with you about regarding the Sabatti is the unconventional method that they used to regulate their rifles by grinding the muzzles, which no longer they are doing.

On the other hand and with all due respect to your opinion, I must agree with dpcd’s statement that you had in bold. Somebody must have played with the sears and the triggers on this rifle and nobody can convince me otherwise. The proof is that, the pull on the front trigger was 2 lbs which I never heard of being reported before, neither on a Sabatti nor on any other double rifle for that matter.

I owned 4 Sabatti rifles which I returned one of them since because of the muzzles issue. All the triggers on these rifles were crisp and broke at around 5 Lbs with the back trigger being around 1 Lb (6 Lbs) heavier than the front, which to me seems perfect for a double rifle, at least this is the way I want them on my doubles.

The only bad thing I ever heard about these rifles is that the grinding of the muzzles. the rest is hear say and opinions, no facts or proofs to back them up.

On the contrary and as Jorge have stated, I have read reports from more than one reputable gun smiths who have stated that these rifles are well built and mechanically very sound.


“ dpcd, I must disagree with your sentence in bold above! It has become quite evident SABATTI lets lots of things pass!”
As for your above statement, I have asked you this same question on onother posts before on the same Sabatti subject and never gotten an answer back. Where are the proofs and the facts?


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
jorge

Has anyone actually identified what the cause
of these "doublings" in Merkels actually is ?

ie Has it been proven in all cases that
it was mechanical not the shooter.

I know of (heard) one or two cases over here,
not sure of the exact problem but it turned out to be grease inside that had collected on one side due to lying in the box for ages - I know it was damn hot that year !!!

505G: I can't attest with 100% certainty as to the problem, although I am sure the triggers were not adjusted properly, but what really bothered me was the folks at Merkel (Alabama?) told them was not to pull the rear trigger first which is BS as you know. That aside, I just can't bet by the plastic, plastic! grip cap and the wood to metal finish, not to mention their engraving (what little there is of it) looks like an eight year old did it. For what one pays for a Merkel, it just does not seem like a good value to me. jorge

I think Merkel might have become less value for money than they were.

Wood to metal on mine are OK but yes, I have seen the odd one that wasn't too crash hot.

The basic engraving is very basic, I agree.
I think they could have done more to tart
it up even if they kept it basic.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
jorge

Has anyone actually identified what the cause
of these "doublings" in Merkels actually is ?

ie Has it been proven in all cases that
it was mechanical not the shooter.

I know of (heard) one or two cases over here,
not sure of the exact problem but it turned out to be grease inside that had collected on one side due to lying in the box for ages - I know it was damn hot that year !!!

Nigel There have been a couple of opinions on what cause the doubleing in the Merkel double rifles. It is true that on my two Merkel double rifles, the front triggers are set lighter than the back trigger, and the proper way to use a double rifle is right barrel first. That fact is not a indication that the rifle should produce an accidental discharge of the right barrel if the left barrel is fired first. The fact is a double rifle is often carried with a soft in the right barrel. And a solid in the left barrel. This was a long time habit of the old cape buffalo hunters. The right barrel fired first on the undisturbed animal, and the solid fired second to get deep penetration on a going away buff. That being the reason doesn’t say one shouldn’t fire the solid first, if it is needed without a double discharge. I have to agree that I have heard rumors with the newer Merkels, some changes were made that seem to be questionable, but most are in regard to ejectors not doubling!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

505G: I can't attest with 100% certainty as to the problem, although I am sure the triggers were not adjusted properly, but what really bothered me was the folks at Merkel (Alabama?) told them was not to pull the rear trigger first which is BS as you know.

That aside, I just can't bet by the plastic, plastic! grip cap and the wood to metal finish, not to mention their engraving (what little there is of it) looks like an eight year old did it. For what one pays for a Merkel, it just does not seem like a good value to me. jorge

Jorge, I agree with you on the advice from the guys in Alabama about not firing the back trigger first. Though as I said above it is not the recommended way of shooting a double rifle because the rifle is originally regulated that way, not because it may cause a double discharge! Those guys are simply breading the instruction book that come with the rifles. That recommendation was not intended to warn against a double discharge. One guy who is an all time winning doubles shooter on clay birds says the it is possible to cause a double discharge by firing the back trigger first and still be shooter arror. He says thyat if the grip is not held properly, the finger moves forward pushing the front trigger forward, and as the finger is pulled back lets the front trigger fire the other barrel. I don’t know if that is fact or not, but I can tell you that I fire the back trigger a lot on both my Merkel double rifles, ( a 9.3X74R & a 470NE) and have never caused a double discharge while pulling the back trigger first in the ten years I’ve been shooting these rifles, and the first twenty years of shooting double barreled Merkel shotguns have I ever received a double discharge by firing the back trigger first. Like you said I’ve seen three people do just that on MY 470NE double rifle, and I cant tell you why they did, but I know it is not the rifle, because it has never done it with at least 30% of the 1000 or so rounds I’ve fired with the back trigger first. I.ve never had a malfunction of any type with either one of my Merkel double rifles, or any of my Merkel shotguns.

In regard to the plastic grip cap, and basic engraving quality and plain wood, none of those things results in the working quality of the rifle. In fact those are the places where cost cutting should take place instead of in piss poor regulation. Every Merkel double rifle I’ve seen or owned has been very accurate, and very well regulated.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
I think Merkel might have become less value for money than they were.

Wood to metal on mine are OK but yes, I have seen the odd one that wasn't too crash hot.

The basic engraving is very basic, I agree.
I think they could have done more to tart
it up even if they kept it basic.

Nigel I really have no experience with the new mono-block Merkel double rifles, so really can’t say one way or the other about their quality. That being said, however, is I will make a prediction for you and the world! You will never find a Merkel that wa jig regulated, or had a grinder run in the bore to try to fix it when the jig didn’t work. Not one person here can make that statement about a Sabatti. If Sabatti had regulated properly in the first place, instead of trying to cut the cost there! Then to add useless the laser reduction , and molded in engraving and faux painted wood to try to make it look better, then this conversation would never have taken place.

It is too bad the Sabatti turned out so bad because it was a fine opportunity to place a double rifle on the market at a price where a lot of guys could have afforded to learn about one of the best designed hunting rifle types in the world. They simply chose to make it pretty, instead of making it shoot properly. A double rifle that is not regulated is not a quality item no matter how fancy it looks.
……………………………………………………………………….. ............

Mac: One should be able to select any trigger on any double without fear of doubling. In fact, many users load a solid in one and a soft on the other, that way they have an option. But how does one justify a plastic grip cap on a 9K rifle....

Here it is in a nut shell. Anything mechanical and man made will have failures. PERIOD. However some products are known to be very reliable and trustworthy and others are known to be not very reliable or trustworthy.

The Sabatti falls into the later category and no manner of rationalization or excuses will change that. They have documented proven issues and reliability problems. There is no arguing that point. It doesn't matter if you bought one and it fit your budget or not. The truth of the matter is that Sabatti double rifles have some serious QC and manufacturing problems.

Also please notice that when I mentioned that the smart money was on buying the least expensive reliable hard core working rifle you could afford I DID NOT MENTION Merkle. Merkle is another that has a bit of a shaky reputation.

It is not a valid argument to say that while multiple Sabatti's have had serious and multiple QC issues, just look at this one off problem on a ________(reputable) rifle with an otherwise stellar reputation. We are talking a trend vs an anomaly. Every once in a while you can get a really hammered out, good Sabatti but the trend on Sabatti's is troublesome.

quote:

I think Merkel might have become less value for money than they were.

Mac

The only reason I said the above was because
I could see what Heym, Searcy and others are offering and what a Merkel costs here, I reckon they are not as good value as they were.

Agree with everything else you said.


By the way, did everyone read the new post I put on the Sabatti thread that was started by
Cal Pappas ? I spoke to one of the owners of the problem Sabattis - the one where the rib has
lifted and crap fallen out from between
the ribs.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Mac: One should be able to select any trigger on any double without fear of doubling. In fact, many users load a solid in one and a soft on the other, that way they have an option. But how does one justify a plastic grip cap on a 9K rifle....

Jorge it is quite evident you did not read my last post before posting the above.

You really seem hung up on that little plastic pistol grip cap! It would cost twenty dollers for a steel One, how much will it cost to have a double rifle re-regulated?

Let's take things in the order of importance here! I would think you would certainly be ensenced more by a maker who cut cost by not regulating a $5.5K double than Merkel puting a plastic grip cap on the $10K double rifle that WAS regulated properly!

You seem to have gained a lot of well placed objections and well founded supposidly God given knowledge on what makes a good double rifle, having owned exactly two double rifles, with the first one being a Sabatti and neither of them being a Merkel. I have doubt you ever even fired a double rifle prior to buying your Sabatti!

It has come to my attention that you always seem to have something to say when I post here. There is no law that says you must agree with me Jorge, but if it is me you have the problem with why not get some balls and just say so and leave Merkel out of it! Anyone who would even mention the name Merkel in the same sentence with Sabatti shows the world something I assure you!

Mac: please quit being so paranoid. If you STOP AND READ this thread, it was YOU who commented on my posts and not the other way around. Believe me if I had a problem with you, my balls are plenty big already to deal with this trivial bullshit.
But just to get back on topic, I'll say it one more time: In my OPINION (and after all these forums are all about OPINIONS based on what we've EXPERIENCED), a properly regulated Sabbati is a GOOD VALUE. And having personally experienced (there's that pesky word again) as many Merkels as I've seen doubling when the rear trigger is pulled sure as hell moulds MY opinion of that rifle. And yes I'm hung up on a plastic grip cap.I shouldn't have to spend (sic) twenty dollers for a cap after dropping 9K on a rifle.

No worries though if you'd like, I'll be on the lookout for your posts and call you every time you post an opinion that I think is bullshit--just like you do with mine--.... jorge

Trend vs anomaly? Interesting question. On the poll below, 70% of Sabattis were either fine as is or were satisfactorily repaired. Is this poll representative? Probably not. In the 16 years I have been wasting time on Internet forums, I can say with confidence the negative perspective is almost always over represented.

We'll see if the ribs coming off issue is a trend or anomaly, but to date the only significant issue has been the muzzle grinding, a practice which was stopped a while ago.

Regardless, the ONLY thing that matters is if the individual rifle in question is a good one. The odds are in Sabatti's favor and the fact that Cabelas will let you return bad ones makes getting a Sabatti a low risk proposition.

I have bought enough high end stuff, from guns to trumpets to flyrods to appliances to tools to you name it, to fully know each individual item must earn it's keep. Not every high end item makes the cut, and not every low end item is substandard. There is only ONE way to truly find out, and while sometimes helpful, it usually doesn't involve opinions on Internet forums.........


http://forums.accuratereloadin...71/showpollresults/Y

Jorge

I'll agree with you on the plastic grip cap on a 9k rifle.

On the "doubling" of Merkel's when rear trigger pulled, I just find it hard that I don't see or hear other reports of this - and that it is 100% certain that something else like hitting the front trigger didn't cause it.

Re "GOOD VALUE", they would be IF no more problems crop up. After talking to the owner of one of the Sabs that the rib lifted and crap fell out from between, I will hold my decision.

Something is going wrong in the factory where not all the processes are sorted out - and I am not talking regulation as that seems to have been fixed.

BTW, to all here--even the naysayers--I very much appreciate the input and discussion. You all have completed my research and all that is left is for me to gain actual experience.

Blaine

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Jorge

I'll agree with you on the plastic grip cap on a 9k rifle.

On the "doubling" of Merkel's when rear trigger pulled, I just find it hard that I don't see or hear other reports of this - and that it is 100% certain that something else like hitting the front trigger didn't cause it.

Re "GOOD VALUE", they would be IF no more problems crop up. After talking to the owner of one of the Sabs that the rib lifted and crap fell out from between, I will hold my decision.

Something is going wrong in the factory where not all the processes are sorted out - and I am not talking regulation as that seems to have been fixed.

505, all I can give you is my word and I've posted examples before and even provided a link. Suffice to say, I think I'm done with this issue, it's really not worth it. Cheers, jorge

Same here re done with it.

quote:

On the poll below, 70% of Sabattis were either fine as is or were satisfactorily repaired.

AFP,

Would you fly an airplane that had a 30% failure rate?

And I am sincere when I say that I hope your new one is a dandy. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

quote:

Originally posted by Jorge:

And yes I'm hung up on a plastic grip cap. I shouldn't have to spend (sic) twenty dollers for a cap after dropping 9K on a rifle.

………………but it’s alright to spend $1000 + ammo to regulate a $5500 double that should have been regulated by the maker! Pardon me but that simply doesn’t make sense to me! Of course it is your money, and you are right, it is no skin off my tail skid! So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Merkels. I admit my post may have been a bit strong, and for that I apologize Jorge!

On the Merkel double discharges, I have seen three people have double discharges with my 470NE Merkel 140-2 Safari, when pulling the back trigger first. Every one of these guys was a person who had never fired a big bore double in their lives. That same rifle has over 1000 rounds through it by me, about 30% fired pulling the back trigger first, without a single double discharge in the whole 1000 rounds fired by me. I can’t say about the previous owner who I think only fired about 60 rounds through this rifle and took two elephant and three Cape buffalo with the rifle before selling it to me.

You may think otherwise, and I’m sure you do, but that tells me they are doing something to cause those doublings! However I can’t tell you what it is, but I simply do not think it is the rifle!

The little 140E-1 9.3X74R Merkel I doubled it the first time I fired it firing the front trigger first, simply because I didn’t expect the recoil it generated and strummed the triggers because I wasn’t holding the rifle tight enough. I have never doubled it since in over ten years of shooting it. I simply can find no fault with Merkel S/S double rifles especially in the regulation department.

I’ve been on the range at 4K ranch with at least 15 other Merkel shooters, who are not new to double rifles, and the only double discharges on any rifle were firing the front trigger first on a rifle larger than they were used to and they admitted they had strummed the triggers.

I think Jorge is right I need a break from the internet!

.................................................. Now I too am out of this as well!BYE

I'm going to put in another good word for Merkel here. The rifle I had was fully engraved. It was not bad except for the Rhino on the left side which was cartoonish. The rest of the engraving was very good considering it was a $9,300 rifle. A hell of a lot better than that laser crap on the Sabattis! Fit and finish were very good and it had a really nice piece of wood to boot. I never gave the plastic grip cap a second thought.

And again, it NEVER doubled on me and I shot 1,000 rounds or so through it. It was very accurate and shot what ever load I sent down range, regardless of bullet or powder. I can't say anything bad about the Merkel I owned and wouldn't hesitate to own another. JMO

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

On the poll below, 70% of Sabattis were either fine as is or were satisfactorily repaired.

AFP,

Would you fly an airplane that had a 30% failure rate?

And I am sincere when I say that I hope your new one is a dandy. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

LOL!!! I simply cannot comment on aircraft failure rates, but as long as the one I'm in is fine, the fleet average doesn't bother me so much. Jorge knows exactly what I'm talking about.

I will keep everyone updated.

ALL the Merkels I experienced doubling, "strumming" was not the issue. As to spending 1000 bucks on ammo, my rifle regulated just fine, but as I've stated, I just could not get by that out of round muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by afp:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

AFP,

Would you fly an airplane that had a 30% failure rate?

And I am sincere when I say that I hope your new one is a dandy. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

LOL!!! I simply cannot comment on aircraft failure rates, but as long as the one I'm in is fine, the fleet average doesn't bother me so much. Jorge knows exactly what I'm talking about.

I will keep everyone updated.

afp

"the fleet average doesn't bother me so much."

When it comes to aircraft, wrong attitude.

The plane you are on today might be fine but the percentage
chance of you getting a bad one - plane or pilot - such as
some of the Indonesian airlines is much higher
- and the important thing, unlike a car,
you can't pull over whenever you want !!!

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

AFP,

Would you fly an airplane that had a 30% failure rate?

And I am sincere when I say that I hope your new one is a dandy. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

LOL!!! I simply cannot comment on aircraft failure rates, but as long as the one I'm in is fine, the fleet average doesn't bother me so much. Jorge knows exactly what I'm talking about.

I will keep everyone updated.

afp

"the fleet average doesn't bother me so much."

When it comes to aircraft, wrong attitude.

I'll keep my own counsel and attitude on what planes I drive.

quote:

but as long as the one I'm in is fine, the fleet average doesn't bother me so much. Jorge knows exactly what I'm talking about.

afp, Exactly why would Jorge know exactly what you are talking about but the other professional civilian, military and prior military/current civilian pilots on this thread not know what you were talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm going to put in another good word for Merkel here. The rifle I had was fully engraved. It was not bad except for the Rhino on the left side which was cartoonish. The rest of the engraving was very good considering it was a $9,300 rifle. A hell of a lot better than that laser crap on the Sabattis! Fit and finish were very good and it had a really nice piece of wood to boot. I never gave the plastic grip cap a second thought.

And again, it NEVER doubled on me and I shot 1,000 rounds or so through it. It was very accurate and shot whatever load I sent down range, regardless of bullet or powder. I can't say anything bad about the Merkel I owned and wouldn't hesitate to own another. JMO

Todd my friend my friend; at least there is a theme to the "Laser crap" on the Sabattis, it is a grape vine nicely and uniformly etched on it that will not easily rub off with use. So every time you hold your sabatti be it in your living room or at the hunting camp you can picture yourself with a glass of good wine with a good cigar, after a very delicious Italian meal at a lugar overlooking the Mediterranean sea at sun set with a very gentile soothing breeze blowing .

On the other hand you look at other rifles with the chicken scratches all over it and the only thing you can hope for is an egg breakfast and if you are lucky with a little bacon added to it.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
Trend vs anomaly? Interesting question. On the poll below, 70% of Sabattis were either fine as is or were satisfactorily repaired. Is this poll representative? Probably not. In the 16 years I have been wasting time on Internet forums, I can say with confidence the negative perspective is almost always over represented.

We'll see if the ribs coming off issue is a trend or anomaly, but to date the only significant issue has been the muzzle grinding, a practice which was stopped a while ago.

Regardless, the ONLY thing that matters is if the individual rifle in question is a good one. The odds are in Sabatti's favor and the fact that Cabelas will let you return bad ones makes getting a Sabatti a low risk proposition.

I have bought enough high end stuff, from guns to trumpets to flyrods to appliances to tools to you name it, to fully know each individual item must earn it's keep. Not every high end item makes the cut, and not every low end item is substandard. There is only ONE way to truly find out, and while sometimes helpful, it usually doesn't involve opinions on Internet forums.........


http://forums.accuratereloadin...71/showpollresults/Y

afp"

This poll reminds me very much with the pool that the president and his professionals bunch of bias liars keeps on quoting, that 90% of Americans agree with the gun control bullshit.

To the rest ; this post reminds me to a great degree with the Mark Sullivan onslaught post that have been going on for quite a while now, regardless of documented facts and findings. based only on biasness and emotional based opinions, jealousy and fears.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm going to put in another good word for Merkel here. The rifle I had was fully engraved. It was not bad except for the Rhino on the left side which was cartoonish. The rest of the engraving was very good considering it was a $9,300 rifle. A hell of a lot better than that laser crap on the Sabattis! Fit and finish were very good and it had a really nice piece of wood to boot. I never gave the plastic grip cap a second thought.

And again, it NEVER doubled on me and I shot 1,000 rounds or so through it. It was very accurate and shot whatever load I sent down range, regardless of bullet or powder. I can't say anything bad about the Merkel I owned and wouldn't hesitate to own another. JMO

Todd my friend my friend; at least there is a theme to the "Laser crap" on the Sabattis, it is a grape vine nicely and uniformly etched on it that will not easily rub off with use. So every time you hold your sabatti be it in your living room or at the hunting camp you can picture yourself with a glass of good wine with a good cigar, after a very delicious Italian meal at a lugar overlooking the Mediterranean sea at sun set with a very gentile soothing breeze blowing .

On the other hand you look at other rifles with the chicken scratches all over it and the only thing you can hope for is an egg breakfast and if you are lucky with a little bacon added to it.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

You Sabatti boys are either suffering from deranged group-think or smoking dope if you think Merkel isn't a superior rifle to Sabatti. Ya'll can keep convincing yourselves of that but I'll guarantee no one else is buying it!!

Merkel may not be a "fine" rifle but it is reliable, hell for stout, and accurate. Sabatti ... well, you pays your money and you takes your chances! And no, the Merkel engraving isn't that el cheapo laser stuff that looks "stamped" into the metal! And talk about cartoons, what's with the mangy rat on the top lever?

This all reminds me of our current administration and the liberals in general: Keep repeating a lie long enough and soon it becomes the accepted truth! Not a chance boys!

"Merkel may not be a "fine" rifle but it is reliable, hell for stout, and accurate."

+ 100


And I think it will be a long time before Sabatti gets to the same stage with ALL of their guns.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

but as long as the one I'm in is fine, the fleet average doesn't bother me so much. Jorge knows exactly what I'm talking about.

afp, Exactly why would Jorge know exactly what you are talking about but the other professional civilian, military and prior military/current civilian pilots on this thread not know what you were talking about?

This is getting petty. I don't do petty.......it also reminds me of why I avoid forums. Bullshit is very prevalent in life, so it's not like I need an Internet Forum to find more.....

quote:

This is getting petty. I don't do petty.......it also reminds me of why I avoid forums. Bullshit is very prevalent in life, so it's not like I need an Internet Forum to find more.....

Welcome to real world where you can no longer order people to agree with you. Life on the outside is a bitch colonel...

You Sabatti boys are either suffering from deranged group-think or smoking dope if you think Merkel isn't a superior rifle to Sabatti. Ya'll can keep convincing yourselves of that but I'll guarantee no one else is buying it!!

Merkel may not be a "fine" rifle but it is reliable, hell for stout, and accurate. Sabatti ... well, you pays your money and you takes your chances! And no, the Merkel engraving isn't that el cheapo laser stuff that looks "stamped" into the metal! And talk about cartoons, what's with the mangy rat on the top lever?

This all reminds me of our current administration and the liberals in general: Keep repeating a lie long enough and soon it becomes the accepted truth! Not a chance boys! [/QUOTE]


Todd:

I invite you to read my previous posts obviously you did not read them and for sure not the one that followed my first respond to you. Because if you did you would have noticed that I am the one who used the president and his liberal crowed analogy first and with all due respect to the peoples themselves. Describing the actions of the Sabatti bashers crowed and liking them to the actions of the president and his surrounding liberal professional liars who keep telling out lies without any facts to back them up. That is exactly what the Sabatti Bashers keep on doing knowingly or not; furthermore I described them to be like the Mark Sullivan bashers. They keep on writing things that are not true and making up stories that they can't back with any evidence or facts, refusing to head the voice of reason in accepting the positive reports of many Sabatti happy owners who constantly write about their positive experience with the guns. This crowed keeps on ignoring anything positive written about the Sabatti rifles, keeps on side stepping the facts and going always back to their initial argument that Sabatti did commit the unpardonable sin by grinding he muzzles on their double rifles to regulate them. Well they did, they repented , they stopped their sinning and moved on and now they are regulating their rifles in the proper way.

Other than the muzzle grinding issue, I did not see any proof of anything negative except for couple of trivial issues that happen to any gun, regardless of the manufacturer and make.

I did post out the challenge more than ones on this post and on others. Where are the facts and where are the proofs.

On the contrary me and others we have put out the testimonies of many good gun smiths that have stated that the Sabatti is a very good Solid well built gun. I presently own 3 Sabatti rifles and ought to know and NO I DID NOT TAKE A CHANCE AND NO ILLISSIONS THERE AND YES I PREFFER MY SABBATI TO THE MERKAL ANY DAY. At least I have not heard of any Sabattis doubling. I can guarantee you that more Sabattis are being sold and will continue to sell.

I can’t fathom the logic of some people who glee at the fact that by keeping on telling their unfounded myths that they might bring down a Good rifle so they can feel good about theirs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I still remember couple of years ago where this attitude and the continuous bashing of the Sabatti rifle have driven a young double rifle enthusiast away from listing to good advice, on how to find and buy a good Sabatti rifle without the muzzle issues. He did not have much money and could not afford one of those more expensive rifles. Instead of him buying a Good Sabatti that he could afford and always can return it if he did not like it. Those who claim they were giving him sound advice they drove unknowingly this young man into the arms of a shyster who took his money and disappeared, and never delivered the rifle promised. This fellow is no longer on AR and doubt if he ever bought a double rifle.


All of this bashing has no ground to stand on, it all boils down to hearsay which does not stand and are dismissed by any judge or court of law . Hearsay and old wife's tails has no place in an intelligent discussion where only facts and proofs can bring forth the truth and shed the light on what is being written and said.

All my Sabatti rifles are top notch beautiful guns. Prior to me buying my first Sabatti rifle I looked at both the Markel and Chapius, I did not like how both of them handled or mounted both of them are solid guns and both of them have their short comings, so is the Sabatti.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

All of this bashing has no ground to stand on, it all boils down to hearsay which does not stand and are dismissed by any court. Hearsay and old wife's tails has no place in an intelligent discussion where only facts and proofs can bring forth the truth and shed the light on what is being written and said.

Malek

How come we have numerous pages on here, this forum showing actual ground muzzles ?

And I spoke with the owner of one of the Sabatti's on the Cal Pappas started thread
as I wanted to verify what was going on with
them and to have it confirmed that Sabatti have taken the guns back to rebarrel or replace the whole gun.

How can these be classed as "hearsay" ?

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

All of this bashing has no ground to stand on, it all boils down to hearsay which does not stand and are dismissed by any court. Hearsay and old wife's tails has no place in an intelligent discussion where only facts and proofs can bring forth the truth and shed the light on what is being written and said.

Malek

How come we have numerous pages on here, this forum showing actual ground muzzles ?

And I spoke with the owner of one of the Sabatti's on the Cal Pappas started thread
as I wanted to verify what was going on with
them and to have it confirmed that Sabatti have taken the guns back to rebarrel or replace the whole gun.

How can these be classed as "hearsay" ?

505G:

I never stated that Sabatti did not do wrong by grinding the muzzles of their rifles. What I am arguing here is that sans the muzzle grinding issue which no body is denying the Sabatti is still a very good well built rifle and worth every penny.


How many of those guns had that problem?


Not to say that it is acceptable, but from what I read on the other post those where the cheaper version of the Sabatti the small framed 9.3x74R rifles. Well I have read reports of many Chapius rifles that came apart at the muzzles and had to be returned to the manufacturer for repair and don’t hear anybody bashing Chapius rifles and claiming that it is no good gun.

Also read many posts here and on NE about problems with the Markel rifles, doubling and having problem with the stock and no body is demonizing the gun and compelling people not to by them any more.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Yes, the owner said it was the 9.3's - all of them which is 2 or 3 guns he knows of.

They still have the Sabatti name on them.

Chapauis - I think if you look back through this forum you will see that it was caused by someone using bullets they shouldn't have - and after the second time didn't Chapuis tell him if he didn't stop using the bullets they wouldn't fix the gun under warranty ?????

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Yes, the owner said it was the 9.3's - all of them which is 2 or 3 guns he knows of.

They still have the Sabatti name on them.

Chapauis - I think if you look back through this forum you will see that it was caused by someone using bullets they shouldn't have - and after the second time didn't Chapuis tell him if he didn't stop using the bullets they wouldn't fix the gun under warranty ?????

I think this is nosense from Chapius, no good modern well built rifle should come apart regardless of the bullet that is sent down its tubes.

I am not sure if this guy was using the Barnes TSX bullet at the time. I use the TSX in my 9.3x74R Sabatti, shot more than a box of those through it with no problems what so ever. Also shot them through my 9.3x74R Chapius not as many with no problems either. The minute that any of these rifles will fail to shoot that bullet and will come apart either chapius or Sabatti can have them back.

I think what the folks down under had experienced is unfortunate, probably a bad couple of rifles I don’t know that should have not happened and buy Chapius logic they were shooting the wrong bullets.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

"I think this is nosense from Chapius, no good modern well built rifle should come apart regardless of the bullet that is sent down its tubes."


BS.

If that was the case, why all the effort to work on bullets with Driving bands ?

ie Woodleigh Hydro, CEB, North fork etc.

If they were not needed, we could all use Barnes.

I think you need to understand why makers say this and why it affects the ribs / joins etc.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
"I think this is nosense from Chapius, no good modern well built rifle should come apart regardless of the bullet that is sent down its tubes."


BS.

If that was the case, why all the effort to work on bullets with Driving bands ?

ie Woodleigh Hydro, CEB, North fork etc.

If they were not needed, we could all use Barnes.

I think you need to understand why makers say this and why it affects the ribs / joins etc.

wait, we should not use barnes in our Chapius?

Must be some GOOOOOD Ganja you Sabatti boys are smoking!!

I promise you, no one is buying it! Really, not even worth a debate response. Just the overwhelming sound of laughter!

No really Malek, comparing the Sabatti to Merkel is just too funny!!

Malek: I don't believe I ever said the Sabatti was a BETTER rifle than a Merkel. What I said was, that in *MY* opinion it is a better VALUE, IF, IF there are no barrel grinding issues. Seen them both handled them both, fired them both. The Sabattis are 5500 bucks with ejectors, the Merkels close to ten grand. NO WAY a Merkel is twice as good.

Malek

I am one of the biggest naysayers over the Sabatti's, from day one and before all the
issues arose.

Why ?

Because you can't cut corners on DR's and
a few of us here guessed something / some problem would show up and it did.

Now, in regards to myself. IF Sabatti had been on the market for a while AND no problems had surfaced, I would have looked at buying one.
But, afraid to say they turned out true to form
so they are off the agenda and will for for many years if at all, especially since this other issue of ribs lifting has arisen.

So, I would have been a supporter but they blew it.

.

With regards to the TSX in doubles. Did Cal not conduct a study which shows that the Barnes actually produces less pressure in a bore than traditional bullets?

Could be wrong but I thought I saw that.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
With regards to the TSX in doubles. Did Cal not conduct a study which shows that the Barnes actually produces less pressure in a bore than traditional bullets?

Could be wrong but I thought I saw that.

Check out the "Double Rifle Bullet of the Future" thread for more info on shooting monometal bullets in doubles. Lots of old wives tales put to rest. Bottom line is that bore rider type of monometal bullets are just fine in doubles. And yes, most of them produce LESS strain than more conventional bullets such as the Woodleigh FMJ, and Hornady DGS, DGX. I've shot several thousand monometal bullets in my doubles now and never had a problem. Again, that's an old wives tale.

Kind of like this new "old wives tale" that some are attempting to develop in which the Sabatti is a better rifle than a Merkel!!!