What has baffled me from the beginning is that some feel the constant need to belittle those who own and enjoy a particular product. One good comment about a Sabatti instantly brings a deluge of negativity that we have all heard before. A product in which the "haters" have absolutely no stake but can't resist any opportunity to say something negative about them. (Their privilege to speak, of course) A product that, for sure, has gone through some bad production decisions and bad publicity, but in all cases, any issues have been rectified by Cabelas. So, no one, especially those who have never owned one, has taken any financial loss. I say this as the owner of two of their large calibers, both of which perform perfectly, (I have no knowledge about the small frames) and I know how rifles are built. To me, for the price, they are a great value with no risk incurred in buying one. Some people can't afford ten grand but might be able to scrape up five; and don't say for them to buy a bolt action. We all are under fire from the anti-gunners; we all share a common interest here; we all should just get along in a civil manner. I am certainly not aiming my comments toward anyone in particular. No hate mail please; my box is full of comments from both fans and detractors.

If you're referring to my comments, go back and take a look at my first comment on the Sabatti referred to in the OP. I actually commented that it appears Sabatti has straightened out the regulation issue. And I commented in line with giving the remainder of the rifles a fair chance.

My more recent comments in this thread are strictly related to the absolutely ridiculous claims of the Sabatti being superior to a Merkel. Sorry, but that one is a NO SALE!! The newer Sabattis may very well have solved that problem. That's fair enough. But it still does not compare favorably in terms of fit/finish and quality with Merkel. Just like Merkel is a quality, reliable, strong, and accurate rifle, but it doesn't compare favorably in terms of fit/finish, and quality of the next higher grade of rifles such as VC or Hyem. Just like VC and Hyem don't compare with Westley Richards and Holland and Holland. They may all go bang every time and ultimately kill whatever beastie you're after, but they aren't in the same class.

Just like a Yugo will get you from point A to B (probably) but it's not like getting there in a Porsche!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What has baffled me from the beginning is that some feel the constant need to belittle those who own and enjoy a particular product. One good comment about a Sabatti instantly brings a deluge of negativity that we have all heard before. A product in which the "haters" have absolutely no stake but can't resist any opportunity to say something negative about them. (Their privilege to speak, of course) A product that, for sure, has gone through some bad production decisions and bad publicity, but in all cases, any issues have been rectified by Cabelas. So, no one, especially those who have never owned one, has taken any financial loss. I say this as the owner of two of their large calibers, both of which perform perfectly, (I have no knowledge about the small frames) and I know how rifles are built. To me, for the price, they are a great value with no risk incurred in buying one. Some people can't afford ten grand but might be able to scrape up five; and don't say for them to buy a bolt action. We all are under fire from the anti-gunners; we all share a common interest here; we all should just get along in a civil manner. I am certainly not aiming my comments toward anyone in particular. No hate mail please; my box is full of comments from both fans and detractors.

Well said and I fully agree as someone who has owned three (450-400, 450NE and 500NE). Aside from the ground muzzles on the 450-400 (saga somewhere on AR), all worked perfectly. Even the 450-400 shot well.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Just like a Yugo will get you from point A to B (probably) but it's not like getting there in a Porsche!

I know you meant to say Ferrari or Lamborghini - Porsches are for girls

Sir, (Mr Williams) I am not referring to yours, nor any particular poster's, comments. (Your comments with regard to the Merkel comparison are not at all to what I am referring.) Nor am I comparing the Sabatti to any other rifle. Certainly they are not in the same league as the high end, high dollar products. They are a $5000 double rifle and for that, they are fine. Is it the Yugo of double rifles? Maybe. Let's say it is the Chevy of them.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Just like a Yugo will get you from point A to B (probably) but it's not like getting there in a Porsche!

I know you meant to say Ferrari or Lamborghini - Porsches are for girls

Let's say Bugatti then!!

Funny how the Boxter really is a girls' car. Wonder why that perception stuck? But it surely did! Talk about product perceptions!

dpcd, Chevy? Hmmm ... I'll think that one over a bit. I'd be more inclined to say Fiat with the Merkel being akin to a Chevy.

505G, I agree fully with the above post! I too was hoping that the Sabatti had been a good deal, but like you I was leary of a double rifle with the advertised features that it had for the 5.5K price range. The at the DSC show right after these were announced, Cabela's had three of them on display! Two were already sold, and the one left was a 500NE. I pawed over all three rifles and wasn't impressed with the weight,especially the 500NE and even less with the wood, and the “space animal” on the top lever. However if they shot well they would have been a bargain at the 5.5K price.

I almost bought the 500NE but after returning to the Cabela's booth two or three times decided to do a "WAIT AND SEE" before I dropped the $5500 on a "MAYBE"! I got home with the paper on the Sabatti, and showed it to my wife. She asked if they were any good, and my reply was I really don't know, but I may go back tomorrow and ask if I can break it down to look at the proof marks and look at it under it's close to see if the underwear is dirty. I looked at the muzzle wedges and ribs but didn't notice any grinding but didn't look for it, because nobody was aware of it that early.
I decided to yield to the little tickle in my head about this, and dropped it.

I'm very glad I did not buy one now that we know better what we would have been taking a chance on! I really wish it had been as advertized because it would have placed double rifle in the hands of a lot of North Americans who wanted a double rifle but were either unable or not willing to pay the price for one. Now $5500 usd is not a small price for a rifle, but is a bargain basement price for a double rifle.
........................

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What has baffled me from the beginning is that some feel the constant need to belittle those who own and enjoy a particular product. One good comment about a Sabatti instantly brings a deluge of negativity that we have all heard before. A product in which the "haters" have absolutely no stake but can't resist any opportunity to say something negative about them. (Their privilege to speak, of course) A product that, for sure, has gone through some bad production decisions and bad publicity, but in all cases, any issues have been rectified by Cabelas. So, no one, especially those who have never owned one, has taken any financial loss. I say this as the owner of two of their large calibers, both of which perform perfectly, (I have no knowledge about the small frames) and I know how rifles are built. To me, for the price, they are a great value with no risk incurred in buying one. Some people can't afford ten grand but might be able to scrape up five; and don't say for them to buy a bolt action. We all are under fire from the anti-gunners; we all share a common interest here; we all should just get along in a civil manner. I am certainly not aiming my comments toward anyone in particular. No hate mail please; my box is full of comments from both fans and detractors.

Great post!

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
"I think this is nosense from Chapius, no good modern well built rifle should come apart regardless of the bullet that is sent down its tubes."


BS.

If that was the case, why all the effort to work on bullets with Driving bands ?

ie Woodleigh Hydro, CEB, North fork etc.

If they were not needed, we could all use Barnes.

I think you need to understand why makers say this and why it affects the ribs / joins etc.

505G:

I never BS you or anybody on this form or any were else for that matter, so don't BS me the only one who BSing here is Chapius.

All these bullets that you have mentioned here are excellent bullets and no where I stated that these bullets are not needed on the contrary I do use some of them and will continue to do so.

As you know product advancement never stops and always there will be new products being developed and advanced. This trend will continue on as long as the human race survives and exists. So it is a natural thing for new bullets to continue to be developed and improvement on old products will continue on. That does not mean that older reliable good products (Barnes TSX) no longer are useful. These products still have a specific use in the field that some of these new products will not be able to perform as well. So if you don’t like to use the Barnes bullets it is your choice that does not mean that they are bad bullets and ruins double rifles just because Chapius and few old wife tails said so. This myth has already been debunked. There are few companies that build double rifles that can handle them bullets, why because there product are built well. For sure Todd Williams have shoot hundreds of TSX through his Markel and it did not come apart why????

I do understand some thing about these TSX bullets and the unfounded myths of them stressing out the barrels of a double and causing them to come lose. I think you need to reread Michael’s 458 and Sam’s work report on the double rifle bullet of the future in order to understand why I am stating this. Some of conventional so called safe bullets for doubles, stresses out the barrels on a double as much if not more than the Barns bullets does.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Malek: I don't believe I ever said the Sabatti was a BETTER rifle than a Merkel. What I said was, that in *MY* opinion it is a better VALUE, IF, IF there are no barrel grinding issues. Seen them both handled them both, fired them both. The Sabattis are 5500 bucks with ejectors, the Merkels close to ten grand. NO WAY a Merkel is twice as good.

Hello Jorge:


I don't recall posting any were quoting you saying that the Sabatti rifle is a better rifle than the Merkel, If I recall correctly I stated that you had referred to at least one gun smith that posted that the Sabatti is a well built rifle. If you believe I did, it is was not meant that way.

I must agree with your statement that "NO WAY a Merkel is twice as good".



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
"I think this is nosense from Chapius, no good modern well built rifle should come apart regardless of the bullet that is sent down its tubes."


BS.

If that was the case, why all the effort to work on bullets with Driving bands ?

ie Woodleigh Hydro, CEB, North fork etc.

If they were not needed, we could all use Barnes.

I think you need to understand why makers say this and why it affects the ribs / joins etc.

505G:

I never BS you or anybody on this form or any were else for that matter, so don't BS me the only one who BSing here is Chapius.

All these bullets that you have mentioned here are excellent bullets and no where I stated that these bullets are not needed on the contrary I do use some of them and will continue to do so.

As you know product advancement never stops and always there will be new products being developed and advanced. This trend will continue on as long as the human race survives and exists. So it is a natural thing for new bullets to continue to be developed and improvement on old products will continue on. That does not mean that older reliable good products (Barnes TSX) no longer are useful. These products still have a specific use in the field that some of these new products will not be able to perform as well. So if you don’t like to use the Barnes bullets it is your choice that does not mean that they are bad bullets and ruins double rifles just because Chapius and few old wife tails said so. This myth has already been debunked. There are few companies that build double rifles that can handle them bullets, why because there product are built well. For sure Todd Williams have shoot hundreds of TSX through his Markel and it did not come apart why????

I do understand some think about these TSX bullets and the unfounded myths of them stressing out the barrels of a double and causing them to come lose. I think you need to reread Michael’s 458 and Sam’s work report on the double rifle bullet of the future in order to understand why I am stating this. Some of conventional so called safe bullets for doubles, stresses out the barrels on a double as much if not more than the Barns bullets does.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Agree with you here Malek. The work done my Michael and Sam showed the TSX to produce significantly less barrel strain than the Woodleigh FMJ (highest barrel strain across all calibers tested) and the Hornday DGX and DGS (2nd and 3rd highest barrels strains across all calibers tested). IIRC, the Woodleigh Hydro was very similar to the TSX bullet. I'd have to go back and read the thread again to see which was higher. Regardless, the TSX, in terms of barrel strain, was well below the bullets that were the consistent 1st, 2nd, and 3rd highest offenders which all the "experts" have proclaimed as "safe" for years. Specifically, the Woodleigh FMJ, Hornady DGS and DGX as producing less strain than the monometal bullets is the primary "old wives tale" I was talking about being debunked. Now, all that said, even those those 3 bullets produce the highest barrel strains, it does not say they are "unsafe" to shoot in modern double rifles. But it is an objective fact that they are the highest strain producers.

Here is a link to barrel strains with the 500NE. The Woodleigh soft was used as the "benchmark safe" bullet so anything with more strain is listed in red. Note, that although the TSX was higher than the Woodleigh soft, it is less than the DGS, DGX, and Woodleigh FMJ. I notice in this chart, the Woodleigh Hydro is missing. But I know Michael tested it. I just haven't been able to find it yet.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...481077271#5481077271

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Must be some GOOOOOD Ganja you Sabatti boys are smoking!!

I promise you, no one is buying it! Really, not even worth a debate response. Just the overwhelming sound of laughter!

No really Malek, comparing the Sabatti to Merkel is just too funny!!

Todd:

I see no facts or proofs are added to the discussion here, only opinions, flying saucers and comical characters.

Either I am not wording my thoughts right or you are somehow missing what I am saying deliberately or not I don't know, I think you need to reread my posts again.

I never compared the Merkel to the Sabatti or said it was a better rifle; I simply stated my preferences and some facts which I believe I am entitled to without being accused of smoking some kind of dope. "NO I DID NOT TAKE A CHANCE AND NO ILLISSIONS THERE AND YES I PREFFER MY SABBATI TO THE MERKAL ANY DAY. At least I have not heard of any Sabattis doubling"

Simply I prefer my Sabatti over the Merkel and for reasons I stated in my previous posts.
“All my Sabatti rifles are top notch beautiful guns. Prior to me buying my first Sabatti rifle I looked at both the Markel and Chapius, I did not like how both of them handled or mounted both of them are solid guns and both of them have their short comings, so is the Sabatti.”
Here I believe I am stating facts about these guns that they are solid, but they have their short comings, so does the Sabatti.

I understand where you might come to the conclusion that I am comparing and you might be right in these areas of solidness and short comings. And I am not talking about the muzzle grinding issue, that is a separate issue which has been fixed by Sabatti.


Yes my friend the Sabatti is a good solid gun too, at least that is what few knowledgeable gun smiths and Sabatti owners have reported.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek, I'm very happy that you are satisfied with your purchase. I just wish all who bought them felt the same way. If they had all been good ones I would be an owner of a couple of them myself! As I have always said if they had been as advertised there would be no bad reputation today or fear of buying one.

Your mention of the Merkels doubling is valid, but let me make something very clear
here. I know of three double discharges when pulling the back trigger first, and all three were with one of my Merkels, fired by others, compared the over 1000 rounds, with 30% fired by me back trigger first with that same rifle and not one double discharge. That tells me it is not the rifle but the shooter.

Then we have a report of three different Merkels doing same back trigger first!
but I can’t explain why, or how they did get the DDs, but IOM if it were the rifle design I would think out of 300 rounds fired back trigger first by me, I would have gotten at least one double discharge, and I have never DDed that rifle no matter how I fire it. But no reason why or what percentage of the total rounds fired through any of these other three rifles reported, if they even exist.

It seems it just had to be the rifle in the reporter’s opinion. Things that make you go HUUMMMMMmmmm!

Even if all were true and the fault of the rifle that would be six DDs from four Merkel rifles of the hundreds of big bore Merkels sold and used world wide.

I really think to compare these events to rifles that weren't regulated properly by the maker, and then to try to fix the botched regulations with a grinder inside the muzzles is just a little disingenuous to say the least. It is always suspect when a person tries to downgrade another brand seemingly to take attention away from the one being discussed.

To call those who are simply warning others to a "BUYER BEWARE" situation as “HATERS” of those who chose not to take head, is even more disingenuous, IMO. I simply have nothing against anyone who bought a Sabatti and had to return it because it wasn't right. I hate that their first double rifle was a disappointment, nothing more. The bad part is some of them will be turned away from double rifles forever, and that is the fault of a company who chose the wrong place to try to cut cost, not the people who warned folks of the problem.

Even if all were true and the fault of the rifle that is six DDs from four Merkel rifles of the hundreds of big bore Merkels sold and used world wide.

I really think to compare these events to the rifles that weren't regulated properly by the maker, and then to try to fix the botched regulations with a grinder inside the muzzles, instead of re-regulating them properly, is just a little disingenuous to say the least. It is always suspect when a person tries to downgrade another brand to take attention away from the one being discussed.

To call those who are simply warning others to a "BUYER BEWARE" situation as HATERS Of those who chose not to take head, is even more disingenuous, IMO. I simply have nothing against anyone who bought a Sabatti and had to return it because it wasn't right. I hate that their first double rifle was a disappointment, nothing more. The bad part is some of them will be turned away from double rifles forever, and that is the fault of a company who chose the wrong place to try to cut cost, not the people who warned folks of the problem.

........................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Malek
"I think this is nosense from Chapius, no good modern well built rifle should come apart regardless of the bullet that is sent down its tubes."

quote:

by 505G
BS.

If that was the case, why all the effort to work on bullets with Driving bands ?

ie Woodleigh Hydro, CEB, North fork etc.

If they were not needed, we could all use Barnes.

I think you need to understand why makers say this and why it affects the ribs / joins etc.

Gentlemen the problem is we are discussing the wrong bullet in regard to Chapuis and the damage done to their double rifle! This episode happened several years ago before “BORE RIDERS” were developed. The damage was done by the “TWO STEP” Bronze super solids, not the mono-metal bullets we have today.

All the new “bore riders” are safe in double rifles, some safer than others.

The mistake is people are blaming the “bore riders” for the OSR and rib separations in double rifles. The OSR and rib separations are not an “OLD WIVE’S TALE” and is a very real phenomenon. The cause of that was the old Barnes SUPER SOLIDS, and the brand called MONOLITHIC SOLIDS. These were made of very hard bronze, and were GROOVE DIAMETER with only the nose being bore diameter, and they did cause damage to the very thin barrels of vintage double rifles, and modern double rifles with very thin barrels in the last 12 inches of the barrel just behind the muzzles.

I rarely disagree with 505G,and the statement by Malek above in BOLD is absolutely not true! A two step bronze bullet with nose cut to bore diameter and the baring surface, or SHANK, cut to groove diameter with no driving bands allowing the displaced metal by the engraving by the rifleing a place to go in between the pressure bands will cause damage in even a modern steel barrel that is thin, ands is not safe in any vintage double rifle IMO.

If we are to discuss bullets and OSR and rib separations, then we must know what we are discussing if we are to avoid an “apples and oranges” discussion. That is what amounts to the BS we are seeing here. There have always been bullets that caused damage if used in the wrong gun, and I fear there always will be.

........................................................................

"I think this is nosense from Chapius, no good modern well built rifle should come apart regardless of the bullet that is sent down its tubes."

OK, we have got this whole thread confused.

I did NOT say the above quote - I quoted Malek
which is why it was in Quotation marks.


This is what I SAID in reply

" BS.

If that was the case, why all the effort to work on bullets with Driving bands ?

ie Woodleigh Hydro, CEB, North fork etc.

If they were not needed, we could all use Barnes.

I think you need to understand why makers say this and why it affects the ribs / joins etc. "


Hope that clears it all up.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
"I think this is nosense from Chapius, no good modern well built rifle should come apart regardless of the bullet that is sent down its tubes."

OK, we have got this whole thread confused.

I did NOT say the above quote - I quoted Malek
which is why it was in Quotation marks.


This is what I SAID in reply

" BS.

If that was the case, why all the effort to work on bullets with Driving bands ?

ie Woodleigh Hydro, CEB, North fork etc.

If they were not needed, we could all use Barnes.

I think you need to understand why makers say this and why it affects the ribs / joins etc. "


Hope that clears it all up.

Sorry about that 505G, I went back a edited my post!

All sweet from my end, just wanted to make sure
it was clear for all.

I'll use the proper quote function next time
instead of cutting and pasting and using "X" marks !!!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What has baffled me from the beginning is that some feel the constant need to belittle those who own and enjoy a particular product. One good comment about a Sabatti instantly brings a deluge of negativity that we have all heard before. A product in which the "haters" have absolutely no stake but can't resist any opportunity to say something negative about them. (Their privilege to speak, of course) A product that, for sure, has gone through some bad production decisions and bad publicity, but in all cases, any issues have been rectified by Cabelas. So, no one, especially those who have never owned one, has taken any financial loss. I say this as the owner of two of their large calibers, both of which perform perfectly, (I have no knowledge about the small frames) and I know how rifles are built. To me, for the price, they are a great value with no risk incurred in buying one. Some people can't afford ten grand but might be able to scrape up five; and don't say for them to buy a bolt action. We all are under fire from the anti-gunners; we all share a common interest here; we all should just get along in a civil manner. I am certainly not aiming my comments toward anyone in particular. No hate mail please; my box is full of comments from both fans and detractors.

Because Sabatti's are challenging the status symbol that double rifles have come to represent.



My Sabatti, is just as good as my Chapuis, infact, it will actually out shoot it. The Chapuis is a bit prettier, but its not really a better value, though its a big name gun, so I don't have to hide my shame when I claim I own it.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Malek, I'm very happy that you are satisfied with your purchase. I just wish all who bought them felt the same way. If they had all been good ones I would be an owner of a couple of them myself! As I have always said if they had been as advertised there would be no bad reputation today or fear of buying one.

Your mention of the Merkels doubling is valid, but let me make something very clear
here. I know of three double discharges when pulling the back trigger first, and all three were with one of my Merkels, fired by others, compared the over 1000 rounds, with 30% fired by me back trigger first with that same rifle and not one double discharge. That tells me it is not the rifle but the shooter.

Then we have a report of three different Merkels doing same back trigger first!
but I can’t explain why, or how they did get the DDs, but IOM if it were the rifle design I would think out of 300 rounds fired back trigger first by me, I would have gotten at least one double discharge, and I have never DDed that rifle no matter how I fire it. But no reason why or what percentage of the total rounds fired through any of these other three rifles reported, if they even exist.

It seems it just had to be the rifle in the reporter’s opinion. Things that make you go HUUMMMMMmmmm!

Even if all were true and the fault of the rifle that would be six DDs from four Merkel rifles of the hundreds of big bore Merkels sold and used world wide.

I really think to compare these events to rifles that weren't regulated properly by the maker, and then to try to fix the botched regulations with a grinder inside the muzzles is just a little disingenuous to say the least. It is always suspect when a person tries to downgrade another brand seemingly to take attention away from the one being discussed.

To call those who are simply warning others to a "BUYER BEWARE" situation as “HATERS” of those who chose not to take head, is even more disingenuous, IMO. I simply have nothing against anyone who bought a Sabatti and had to return it because it wasn't right. I hate that their first double rifle was a disappointment, nothing more. The bad part is some of them will be turned away from double rifles forever, and that is the fault of a company who chose the wrong place to try to cut cost, not the people who warned folks of the problem.

Even if all were true and the fault of the rifle that is six DDs from four Merkel rifles of the hundreds of big bore Merkels sold and used world wide.

I really think to compare these events to the rifles that weren't regulated properly by the maker, and then to try to fix the botched regulations with a grinder inside the muzzles, instead of re-regulating them properly, is just a little disingenuous to say the least. It is always suspect when a person tries to downgrade another brand to take attention away from the one being discussed.

To call those who are simply warning others to a "BUYER BEWARE" situation as HATERS Of those who chose not to take head, is even more disingenuous, IMO. I simply have nothing against anyone who bought a Sabatti and had to return it because it wasn't right. I hate that their first double rifle was a disappointment, nothing more. The bad part is some of them will be turned away from double rifles forever, and that is the fault of a company who chose the wrong place to try to cut cost, not the people who warned folks of the problem.

........................................................................................

Hello Mac:

Thanks for the comments regarding my Sabatti, yes I am very happy with its performance and over all looks , fit and quality. I wish everybody had a similar experience with their Sabattie as I did.

Do these three Markel rifles include the ones that Jorge had mentioned in his posts?

Mac: you keep on going back to the same old story which everybody knows and nobody denies. Regarding the muzzle issue, which Sabatti already had fixed and they already have stopped regulating their rifles using this method.

When I made my statement I was stating my preferences and not comparing and whenever I made a statement regarding the Sabatti rifles I always made sure to state that aside from the muzzle issue, these rifles are very good and well built rifles. This is not only my opinion but the opinion of few knowledgeable gun smiths and what some Sabatti owners who have reported their positive experiences. Also it is the opinion of my well reputable gun smith which I had him examine the rifle throughout for me when I had him change the recoil pad and shorten the Stock of the rifle.
“Simply I prefer my Sabatti over the Merkel and for reasons I stated in my previous posts.
I looked at both the Markel and Chapius, I did not like how both of them handled or mounted both of them are solid guns and both of them have their short comings, so is the Sabatti.”
Here I believe I am stating facts about these guns (Merkel and Chapius) that they are solid, but they have their short comings, so does the Sabatti. I understand where you might come to the conclusion that I am comparing and you might be right in these areas of solidness and short comings. And I am not talking about muzzle grinding that is a separate issue which has been rectified by Sabatti”.

So the indigenous thing is to keep on side steeping the facts and ignoring a lot of folk’s positive assessment of the Sabatti rifle especially when you don’t have any evidence or facts to back up your claims except biasness and the old song on the old broken record (the muzzle Issue). Which already had been rectified and nobody got heart and everybody got their money back.

You had a good experience with your Markel, happy for you, so did many others, but never the less there are some out there that did have some proplems and nobody can negate that fact.

You also stated that I was being disingenuous because according to you “To call those who are simply warning others to a "BUYER BEWARE" situation as HATERS Of those who chose not to take head, is even more disingenuous, IMO ". Well first of all I never made such a statement nowhere in any of my posts. So who is being disingenuous here? For you to make such a statement based on something I never stated or wrote, IMO this is being disingenuous indeed.

Second your posts were always a complete bashing and outright attack against the Sabatti rifle, her on AR and on other sites. I found myself always wondering why you had such a hatful vindictive attitude toward the Sabatti rifles!!!!!!!

Only in resent posts your tone has changed a bit and you started to claim that you are warning others.

Incidentally I never cared to get into this futile discussion despite the ongoing onslaught against the Sabatti rifles and always I avoided this topic because I had the feeling that the hatters will always continue to be haters despite the positive reports and no matter what anybody would say or right because they simply can’t get over the muzzle grinding issue and move on. Only recently I replied to a post by a friend kind of jokingly and not intending to get into a heated discussion and definitely not wanting to being called or calling anybody disingenuous.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What has baffled me from the beginning is that some feel the constant need to belittle those who own and enjoy a particular product. One good comment about a Sabatti instantly brings a deluge of negativity that we have all heard before. A product in which the "haters" have absolutely no stake but can't resist any opportunity to say something negative about them. (Their privilege to speak, of course) A product that, for sure, has gone through some bad production decisions and bad publicity, but in all cases, any issues have been rectified by Cabelas. So, no one, especially those who have never owned one, has taken any financial loss. I say this as the owner of two of their large calibers, both of which perform perfectly, (I have no knowledge about the small frames) and I know how rifles are built. To me, for the price, they are a great value with no risk incurred in buying one. Some people can't afford ten grand but might be able to scrape up five; and don't say for them to buy a bolt action. We all are under fire from the anti-gunners; we all share a common interest here; we all should just get along in a civil manner. I am certainly not aiming my comments toward anyone in particular. No hate mail please; my box is full of comments from both fans and detractors.

Because Sabatti's are challenging the status symbol that double rifles have come to represent.



My Sabatti, is just as good as my Chapuis, infact, it will actually out shoot it. The Chapuis is a bit prettier, but its not really a better value, though its a big name gun, so I don't have to hide my shame when I claim I own it.

+1


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Somebody with more time (and patience) than I should go back and research what some of these staunch defenders of Merkels have said in the past...

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

Hello Mac:

Thanks for the comments regarding my Sabatti, yes I am very happy with its performance and over all looks , fit and quality. I wish everybody had a similar experience with their Sabattie as I did.

Do these three Markel rifles include the ones that Jorge had mentioned in his posts?

Mac: you keep on going back to the same old story which everybody knows and nobody denies. Regarding the muzzle issue, which Sabatti already had fixed and they already have stopped regulating their rifles using this method.

When I made my statement I was stating my preferences and not comparing and whenever I made a statement regarding the Sabatti rifles I always made sure to state that aside from the muzzle issue, these rifles are very good and well built rifles. This is not only my opinion but the opinion of few knowledgeable gun smiths and what some Sabatti owners who have reported their positive experiences. Also it is the opinion of my well reputable gun smith which I had him examine the rifle throughout for me when I had him change the recoil pad and shorten the Stock of the rifle.
“Simply I prefer my Sabatti over the Merkel and for reasons I stated in my previous posts.
I looked at both the Markel and Chapius, I did not like how both of them handled or mounted both of them are solid guns and both of them have their short comings, so is the Sabatti.”
Here I believe I am stating facts about these guns (Merkel and Chapius) that they are solid, but they have their short comings, so does the Sabatti. I understand where you might come to the conclusion that I am comparing and you might be right in these areas of solidness and short comings. And I am not talking about muzzle grinding that is a separate issue which has been rectified by Sabatti”.

So the indigenous thing is to keep on side steeping the facts and ignoring a lot of folk’s positive assessment of the Sabatti rifle especially when you don’t have any evidence or facts to back up your claims except biasness and the old song on the old broken record (the muzzle Issue). Which already had been rectified and nobody got heart and everybody got their money back.

You had a good experience with your Markel, happy for you, so did many others, but never the less there are some out there that did have some proplems and nobody can negate that fact.

You also stated that I was being disingenuous because according to you “To call those who are simply warning others to a "BUYER BEWARE" situation as HATERS Of those who chose not to take head, is even more disingenuous, IMO ". Well first of all I never made such a statement nowhere in any of my posts. So who is being disingenuous here? For you to make such a statement based on something I never stated or wrote, IMO this is being disingenuous indeed.

Second your posts were always a complete bashing and outright attack against the Sabatti rifle, her on AR and on other sites. I found myself always wondering why you had such a hatful vindictive attitude toward the Sabatti rifles!!!!!!!

Only in resent posts your tone has changed a bit and you started to claim that you are warning others.

Incidentally I never cared to get into this futile discussion despite the ongoing onslaught against the Sabatti rifles and always I avoided this topic because I had the feeling that the hatters will always continue to be haters despite the positive reports and no matter what anybody would say or right because they simply can’t get over the muzzle grinding issue and move on. Only recently I replied to a post by a friend kind of jokingly and not intending to get into a heated discussion and definitely not wanting to being called or calling anybody disingenuous.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek, that is a very well written response to what you THINK I was saying in my post to you. The only reason your name is in this post is because I’m talking to you.

The internet poses a problem that is solved at once when people talk face to face! When one say something that is taken wrong by the other it is questioned right away, and the meaning cleared, so it doesn’t become an issue. This can’t happen on the internet, because it may not be read till the next day, the other person has moved on, till he reads your post two days later. The meaning he has misunderstood has time to bring forth feelings not intended. Now you have an argument rather than a discussion.

The comments that contain things like disingenuous, Hater, and muzzle grinding, and improper regulation are all things that have been said by most in this thread in different contexts and by many people posting here. I never said you personally said any of them.

Everyone seems hung up on nothing but ground muzzles or not ground muzzles, when what should be discussed is why the company who made these things did not regulate the rifles properly in the first place. Then further discuss why they chose to use the grinding to try to fix what they had screwed up, instead of re-regulating the rifle in the traditional method, as it should have been done in the first place.

The Sabatti is not the first to try the JIG method of regulation (read Winchester Grand European for instance) and it didn’t work any better for Winchester than it did for Sabatti.
Then to use a ridiculous method to fix the first mistake by making another mistake with the grinder.

There gentlemen is where your anger should have been placed, not at the people who tried to warn you about the fiasco. The word HATE should be stated by the buyers and applied to the company who put these things out without proper regulation.

What people seem to not understand is, I’m on the side of the buyer, and MY anger is placed where it should be by everyone, at the company who made these things.

Now if any of the buyers found out that I had known about the improper regulation, and had not warned anyone of the fact, then, and only then his anger would be properly place on my head. I did not regulate these rifle improperly SABATTI did! I did not stick a moto-tool grinder in the muzzles of these rifle instead of re-regulating them properly, Sabbati did!

Gentlemen I’m very tired of being the point of anger for the things the Sabatti company is guilty of. They were the ones who screwed up in the first place not me. The company who suffered most because of Sabatti is Cabela’s who had to choose taking these things back and returning the money to save their reputation! Cabela’s is to be congratulated for their GOOD business practices.

I assure you I will never post a warning of a problem that warrants a BUYER BEWARE I become aware of again, to then be pummeled about the head and shoulders by those who chose to not heed the warnings. It matters not that some got rifles that shot well, considering the way these things were regulated, if you can call it that, is more luck than anything. Winchester had some that shot well with the jig regulation, but post anyplace where double rifle people post and you will get a warning not to buy one.

As I posted before that I personally handled the first three Sabatti double rifles that came to Cabela’s here in the D/FW area, and decided to take a “wait and see” stance till a few were put to the test. If those had been found to be OK, as I’ve said on several occasions, I would be the proud owner of a couple of them myself.

Then when reports started coming in that some of these things were not well regulated, I was glad I had resisted buying one. Then the reports started flowing in that the muzzles had been ground out at the muzzles to try to make them shoot properly, that is a practice that started my real warnings about this absolutely not being the place to cut costs, and IMO they should be avoided. It makes little difference that the practice of grinding has stopped, it should have never started, and if the rifles had been properly regulated in the first place we would have never had this thread or others like it.

Even though some have shot OK, I still hold that opinion of the Sabatti company, being the UGO of the double rifle business, and I still can’t in all good conscience recommend them still.

Gentlemen this is my last word on the Sabatti, buy all of them you want!
...............................................................BYE

Gentlemen this is my last word on the Sabatti, buy all of them you want!
..................................................
....Mac

PROMISE???

MacD37,

I commend you on your last post on the Sabbatti's. Everything you stated was accurate and honest. Sabbatti is the problem; not Cabela's, or those who have returned guns, or even MacD himself.

As I recall, nothing has been published in Double Gun Journal, Sporting Classics, or anywhere for that matter, where Sabbatti has come out and announced that they are now properly regulating their rifles, and an honest apology from the company for deceiving potential gun owners for disingenuous advertising of their product. Without such an announcement, I find it hard to trust the Sabbatti product. And I would very much like to own a .450NE in one of their guns.

I just don't understand why Sabbatti cannot come out, with the blessings of Cabela's, and apologize for faulty manufacturing, a commitment & guarantee of proper function of all current production guns, and find a way to resurrect their reputation.

md

I agree, I find it hard to trust them
- and knowing importers, how the hell
do I know I have a good product.

I have two Merkel's but if I had a choice
when I bought the Merkels, I would have purchased Sabatti's over the Merkel's
IF they had been available AND had
none of the problems we have seen
- and are still seeing as per the
problem with ribs here with 2 - 3
guns in 9.3X74R

And that is coming from one of the
Original's who warned about possible
problems / Sabatti basher.

I just want to give you my experience with my 375 on a recent safai. I have a 375 HH Sako that i love dearly, I have shot over 30 animals with it over 20 years, and many hundreds of rounds have gone downrange during field practice, with nary a problem
This is a bolt action rifle and it is possible to load 4 down and place a 5th round in the chamber by pressing down on the magazine rounds as I advance the bolt on the 5ht round
well,I was doing just that prior to starting out for the am hunt in Burkina, and just as I closed the bolt, the rifle discharged. In a safe direction, of course.
I tried to reproduce it 20 times right away, without another discahrge. I tried again with a dummy round another 100-150 times that evening -all the hunters present took a hand- no discharge
On getting home I stripped the rifle , and bolt, no problems
I had my gunsmith clean and disassemble the entire kaboodle, no abnormalities detected.
I have shot te rifle another 30 times since the sdafari 3 months ago- no problems
Conclusion: despite my extreme care and experience, I must have inadvertantly touched the trigger during reloading (it has a 3 lb pull)
Just FYI

It is a shame they named it Sabatti. Sounds like some Italian dish.