When I first researched the Sabattis and discovered they used the same barrel contour for 450 NE through 500 NE, my initial thought was that it would be best to avoid the 500. It just seemed like the 500 was a big step up from the 450/470 and as such should be in a beefier rifle. Then I read about the great success Sam had with the 500, and since my local Cabela's had a 500 for a huge discount, I bought it. To be honest, I thought the 450 NE would be much more practical, but at 15% off the sale price I decided to give the 500 a try.

You all might remember how I mentioned the trigger pull was 2 lbs on the front and 6 on the rear. I thought that was too light, but being new to double rifles I decided not to worry about it.

I made it to the range (last Saturday) with a box of Hornady 570 grain DGX ammo. My purpose was to fire the rifle "as is" to check regulation before changing the LOP and changing the recoil pad. I set up my rests so they would support my hands as I held the rifle, seated, but with my back straight.

With the safety on I loaded two rounds, closed the rifle, released the safety, and fired. I had set up four targets with 4" black bulls and I shot at the top left bull. I missed. A fellow shooter watching me said it went just over the top. No big deal, I just had to adjust my sight picture. The good news was the stock didn't slap me in the face and the recoil was manageable.

Since I wanted to see POIs from both barrels, I reloaded the right barrel. I was standing to the left of my rest set up while doing all this with the rifle pointed down range. The action was a little stiff to close, so I checked everything, gripped the rifle firmly around the wrist with my right hand, gripped the fore end firmly with my left hand, and snapped the rifle shut.

The rifle discharged, flew out of my hands up and over my head and slammed down on the concrete--and the second barrel discharged. Fortunetly, the rifle was pointed mostly down range when the second barrel went off. The bullet grazed the bottom of a metal gate doing cosmetic damage and buried itself in the newly erected berm that paralleled the shooting lane.

Being a former 24 year USAF pilot, I go into "action mode" when nasty stuff happens and focus on the tasks at hand. However, the enormity of what just happened quickly hit me. There were other people at the range that day I and I thank God that He was watching over us and that no one was hurt--except the gate which now has a battle scar.

I have gone over the incident again and again in my mind and checked my newly developing habit patterns when closing a double rifle, which happen to be very much like the habit patterns I have developed over the last few years shooting my O/U shotgun. I am 99.9% sure my finger was NOT in the trigger guard when I closed the rifle. In testing, I found it very awkward and unnatural to close the action that way. My natural tendency is to slide my hand to the rear firmly against the grip when closing and break action gun, especially on the is a little firm on closing.

Having said that, I will always wonder a tiny bit if I did have my finger around the rear trigger when I closed the rifle. Regardless, the rifle should not have discharged when it hit the ground, and that is a function of the triggers being set way too light and bouncing off.

I called Cabela's and they had a cow, telling me they would do whatever I wanted--refund my money or replace the rifle. In fact I got three calls from Cabela's that day.

I did a lot of thinking and decided that I still wanted a Sabatti. Most don't have issues, and it is my only opportunity to own a double rifle in an African chambering. I PM'ed a couple of members here for their opinions, and the consensus was the Sabatti 500 NE is too light and the 450 NE is an excellent choice...........especially for a guy who will make one, maybe two trips to hunt Cape Buffalo.

When I returned the 500, they had a 450 NE on the rack they didn't have when I bought the 500. I picked it up and could IMMEDIATELY tell what is wrong with the weight and balance of the Sabatti 500. The 450 NE is about 10 oz heavier (on my scale), and the balance just feels right. It comes to shoulder much more quickly for me. I liked that it didn't have ejectors, and they are annoying at the range and in a lower end rifle I think simpler might be better.

On top of all that, the regulation target showed two shots, 1" apart and horizontally aligned with the bull. I looked at several other Sabattis from various stores in the Cabela's online gun library, and saw something interesting. Many had the regulation targets posted with the rifle picture, and just about all the 450 NEs I looked at had tight regulation groups. The 470s and 500s were more spread. This may be because being heavier, the 450 NE recoils less, and it has thicker barrels which may be dampening harmonics better.

So I now have a 450 NE, which is what I wanted at first anyway, and will soon list some 500 NE brass, bullets, and dies in the classified. Oh yeah, this one has much heavier triggers......

Blaine

What an unfortunate event,I am so thankful that nobody got hurt,best of luck with the 450.

Glad nobody got hurt!

Damn hard way to get the rifle you wanted.

Glad no one was injured. But can't understand how you could actually swap it out with another Sabatti after that experience.
No insult intended but if I were you I would spring for the extra $$$ and just order a Searcy Field Grade.

Some guys thinks Cabelas has super customer service for standing behind these rifles under such bizar circumstances. Personally I think they are being dicks for continuing to carry them. They should send every rifle back to Sabatti and tell them to shove the rifles up their ass.

I try not to be emotionally driven about such things, I know what the problem was with the 500, and most Sabattis are fine. I will never spend $8K+ on a rifle, so if this Sabatti turns out to be unsafe then I will be done with double rifles and be happy with my CRF M-70s.....although one of those slam fired on me as well but that is a different story. Point is there are bad examples of all mechanical devices, and I won't make my decision on one bad experience. I did dump Rem 700s, but only after repeated failures.

You may see things differently, and that is fine by me...........

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Glad no one was injured. But can't understand how you could actually swap it out with another Sabatti after that experience.
No insult intended but if I were you I would spring for the extra $$$ and just order a Searcy Field Grade.

Some guys thinks Cabelas has super customer service for standing behind these rifles under such bizar circumstances. Personally I think they are being dicks for continuing to carry them. They should send every rifle back to Sabatti and tell them to shove the rifles up their ass.

+1

I can't understand why they carry on with them either.

Story's like this make my heart skip a beat.

Blaine,
My 450/400 Sabatti was a "returned" gun that was discounted the same as your 500. My guess would be that somebody tried to fix the trigger pull on the .500 and screwed it up, then returned it to Cabelas because it didn't shoot right. I worked in a gun shop for a couple years and you would be suprised how often that happened.
For what it's worth, both of my Sabatti's shoot great.

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
I try not to be emotionally driven about such things, I know what the problem was with the 500, and most Sabattis are fine. I will never spend $8K+ on a rifle, so if this Sabatti turns out to be unsafe then I will be done with double rifles and be happy with my CRF M-70s.....although one of those slam fired on me as well but that is a different story. Point is there are bad examples of all mechanical devices, and I won't make my decision on one bad experience. I did dump Rem 700s, but only after repeated failures.

You may see things differently, and that is fine by me...........

How refreshing to hear the voice of reason, you are absolutely correct on all points! My .450 works fine and I am VERY happy with. 9K plus for anything else was just not going to happen, good luck with your new one.

Good choice; my .450 Sabatti performs fully as well as my Krieghoff which cost exactly twice as much. Now that I think about it, someone after the factory must have altered the sear engagements on your 500. No factory would have let that pass. Do not be concerned with the comments of the nay sayers.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Good choice; my .450 Sabatti performs fully as well as my Krieghoff which cost exactly twice as much. Now that I think about it, someone after the factory must have altered the sear engagements on your 500. No factory would have let that pass. Do not be concerned with the comments of the nay sayers.

dpcd, I must disagree with your sentence in bold above! It has become quite evident SABATTI lets lots of things pass!

..........................................................................

Was this one of the new X serial numbered guns?

Non X serial number.

I knew my post would cause the naysayers to become more convinced of their position, but the story needed to be told anyway.

The first generation of entry level doubles--Krieghoff, Merkel, Blaser, Searcy--are definitely better quality than the Sabattis. I think these rifles are still much more custom made than mass produced. Sabattis are in effect mass produced doubles, and as a consequence not every Sabatti that leaves the factory will be a good one.

Do I need to remind anyone about how spotty the QC was on Rem 700s were the first couple years after they relocated their manufacturing to the South? Don't we all remember that the last years of M-70s produced at New Haven also were of very inconsistent quality?

Nowadys both Rem and Winchester are producing rifles that are much more consistent in quality, but still, an ocassional bad one gets through. I think that is where Sabatti is today. They had a lot of problems in the past--like Rem and Winchester, but have mostly resolved things.

I also have both high end and low end trumpets. I can play as well on my low end trumpet as I can on my high end trumpet. The audience can't tell what trumpet I am using, but it makes a huge difference to me. I think that that describes the relationship between Sabatti doubles and the others I mentioned.

I actually think dcpd is right about my 500 being a return that someone messed with. The rifle had a lot of handling marks on it. Also, has anyone else ever come across any other Sabatti with anything near a 2 lb pull from the factory?

Blaine

AFP,

Didn't you identify this gun as a non "X" serialized model in a different thread? If so, I'd suggest that you and DPCD are correct in that it was a problem gun from those early batches. We don't seem to hear of the Sabatti problems with these newer guns, so yeah, your issue may serve to solidify the naysayers opinions of the guns, but in all fairness, it should only affect the opinions of those early guns, not the current offerings.

All that aside, and the gun's light weight, as well as the light trigger pull on the one trigger, still doesn't identify what caused the slam fire or the action being stiff on the second shot, but not the first shot. What happened to the gun between shots? Did the firing pin get stuck in the extended position? If so, I wonder what caused that?

I really don't know how to judge the Cabelas issue. On the one hand, I'm glad they are standing behind the guns when a problem arises. But how they contributed to the problem in the first place is something the company should be ashamed of. I certainly understand the need and desire for a more attractively priced DR that more people can afford to own. But they just went at it the wrong way. The Sabattis are really a pretty nice looking gun. Why Cabelas specified looks over proper function is beyond me. If they had just focused on a "PH" style gun, all could have been avoided.

I may have missed it, but does you new Sabatti, in 450NE, have the "X" serial number or is it one of the older models as well? Also, have you fired the 450NE yet to confirm this new gun is of better quality? I do hope it all works out for you.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
I try not to be emotionally driven about such things, I know what the problem was with the 500, and most Sabattis are fine. I will never spend $8K+ on a rifle, so if this Sabatti turns out to be unsafe then I will be done with double rifles and be happy with my CRF M-70s.....although one of those slam fired on me as well but that is a different story. Point is there are bad examples of all mechanical devices, and I won't make my decision on one bad experience. I did dump Rem 700s, but only after repeated failures.

You may see things differently, and that is fine by me...........

How refreshing to hear the voice of reason, you are absolutely correct on all points! My .450 works fine and I am VERY happy with. 9K plus for anything else was just not going to happen, good luck with your new one.

I don't know much about elephant hunting, but that looks like a good shot!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
AFP,

Didn't you identify this gun as a non "X" serialized model in a different thread? If so, I'd suggest that you and DPCD are correct in that it was a problem gun from those early batches. We don't seem to hear of the Sabatti problems with these newer guns, so yeah, your issue may serve to solidify the naysayers opinions of the guns, but in all fairness, it should only affect the opinions of those early guns, not the current offerings.

All that aside, and the gun's light weight, as well as the light trigger pull on the one trigger, still doesn't identify what caused the slam fire or the action being stiff on the second shot, but not the first shot. What happened to the gun between shots? Did the firing pin get stuck in the extended position? If so, I wonder what caused that?

I really don't know how to judge the Cabelas issue. On the one hand, I'm glad they are standing behind the guns when a problem arises. But how they contributed to the problem in the first place is something the company should be ashamed of. I certainly understand the need and desire for a more attractively priced DR that more people can afford to own. But they just went at it the wrong way. The Sabattis are really a pretty nice looking gun. Why Cabelas specified looks over proper function is beyond me. If they had just focused on a "PH" style gun, all could have been avoided.

I may have missed it, but does you new Sabatti, in 450NE, have the "X" serial number or is it one of the older models as well? Also, have you fired the 450NE yet to confirm this new gun is of better quality? I do hope it all works out for you.

The 500 was non X. The muzzles were fine as was the regulation target. However, all the handling marks on the rifle make me think someone tried to fix the triggers. The first time I closed the rifle at the range the safety was on and the action was cocked from a previous closing. It was only a little stiff to close when cocking the firing pins. I am not sure what caused the firing on closing or the second discharge when it hit the concrete other than the triggers were way too light. I can make an M-70 slam fire if I set the trigger too light.

The 450 is also a non X but the weight and balance of the rifle, simplicity of not having ejectors, and the 1" regulation target won me over. Muzzles are perfect this rifle. I'll let everyone knows how it shoots, though it might be next weekend before I can get to the range. Didn't all the ground muzzle rifles get recalled?

Howdy, long time no see. Interesting thread and I'm sure you can pick out the wheat from the chaff here. Regarding your AD, I'm willing to bet it was your finger placement. I had a Sabbato but returned it because of the muzzle issue, but a while back a knowledgeable gunsmith did a very well written report on the overall quality of the rifle and it was very positive.

Let us know how she shoots and if/when you decide to reload, drop me a note. I currently own a VC in 450NE and have done a LOT of loading for the caliber.

Cheers, jorge

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
Non X serial number.

I knew my post would cause the naysayers to become more convinced of their position, but the story needed to be told anyway.

The first generation of entry level doubles--Krieghoff, Merkel, Blaser, Searcy--are definitely better quality than the Sabattis. I think these rifles are still much more custom made than mass produced. Sabattis are in effect mass produced doubles, and as a consequence not every Sabatti that leaves the factory will be a good one.

Do I need to remind anyone about how spotty the QC was on Rem 700s were the first couple years after they relocated their manufacturing to the South? Do I need to remind anyone about how spotty the QC was on Rem 700s were the first couple years after they relocated their manufacturing to the South? Don't we all remember that the last years of M-70s produced at New Haven also were of very inconsistent quality?

Nowadys both Rem and Winchester are producing rifles that are much more consistent in quality, but still, an ocassional bad one gets through. I think that is where Sabatti is today. They had a lot of problems in the past--like Rem and Winchester, but have mostly resolved things.

I also have both high end and low end trumpets. I can play as well on my low end trumpet as I can on my high end trumpet. The audience can't tell what trumpet I am using, but it makes a huge difference to me. I think that that describes the relationship between Sabatti doubles and the others I mentioned.

I actually think dcpd is right about my 500 being a return that someone messed with. The rifle had a lot of handling marks on it. Also, has anyone else ever come across any other Sabatti with anything near a 2 lb pull from the factory?

Blaine

Dont try to go there, That story was complete bullshit! It was concocted by the media to smear a great gun company. Sabatti have issues, we all know that, accept it! Some of the rifles are shooters, but they cut corners, they got caught.

I am speaking from actual experience with Rem 700s and Win 70s. I didn't even know the media had said anything about Remmy QC, but I can tell you from personal experience that Remington QC has been spotty over the years. So has Winchester's. I expect no more or less from Sabatti or any other mass producer.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Howdy, long time no see. Interesting thread and I'm sure you can pick out the wheat from the chaff here. Regarding your AD, I'm willing to bet it was your finger placement. I had a Sabbato but returned it because of the muzzle issue, but a while back a knowledgeable gunsmith did a very well written report on the overall quality of the rifle and it was very positive.

Let us know how she shoots and if/when you decide to reload, drop me a note. I currently own a VC in 450NE and have done a LOT of loading for the caliber.

Cheers, jorge

Hi Jorge,

I don't know, everytime I try to duplicate the finger in the trigger guard while closing it is very unnatural and awkward. Then again, it is a possibility. Regardless, the rifle should not have discharged when it hit the ground.

I will start reloading for it as soon as my dies and brass arrive and I have has a chance to test fire it with factory ammo.

afp

Have a look at Remmy SPS's, talk about a heap of s !!!

Often rusty within (magazine spring and that area) straight out of the box !!!

Remmy's QC is not that good, only on the higher end rifles IMHO.

Certainly can sympathize. I once had a Beretta auto discharge while I was carrying it. Racked my brain about finger placement and the safety. That was over 30 years ago. Sold all my autos back then of any kind and went to doubles. Simplicity is best.I am an English double guy but have looked at the Sabatti. I could not stand the fake wood. IMO though, I like them better than the Merkels and other European double sans VC.

Here is a link to yet another example of a Merkel doubling if the rear trigger/left barrel is fired first:
Merkel500

That is the sixth, sixth, verifiable incident by me. Based on what I know and seen personally, a Sabbati with GOOD barrels is a better gun than a Merkel at half the price and plastic gripcap? GMAFB!

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
Non X serial number.

I knew my post would cause the naysayers to become more convinced of their position, but the story needed to be told anyway.

The first generation of entry level doubles--Krieghoff, Merkel, Blaser, Searcy--are definitely better quality than the Sabattis. I think these rifles are still much more custom made than mass produced. Sabattis are in effect mass produced doubles, and as a consequence not every Sabatti that leaves the factory will be a good one.

Do I need to remind anyone about how spotty the QC was on Rem 700s were the first couple years after they relocated their manufacturing to the South? Do I need to remind anyone about how spotty the QC was on Rem 700s were the first couple years after they relocated their manufacturing to the South? Don't we all remember that the last years of M-70s produced at New Haven also were of very inconsistent quality?

Nowadys both Rem and Winchester are producing rifles that are much more consistent in quality, but still, an ocassional bad one gets through. I think that is where Sabatti is today. They had a lot of problems in the past--like Rem and Winchester, but have mostly resolved things.

I also have both high end and low end trumpets. I can play as well on my low end trumpet as I can on my high end trumpet. The audience can't tell what trumpet I am using, but it makes a huge difference to me. I think that that describes the relationship between Sabatti doubles and the others I mentioned.

I actually think dcpd is right about my 500 being a return that someone messed with. The rifle had a lot of handling marks on it. Also, has anyone else ever come across any other Sabatti with anything near a 2 lb pull from the factory?

Blaine

quote:

Originally posted by Alaskaman11:
Dont try to go there, That story was complete bullshit! It was concocted by the media to smear a great gun company.

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
I am speaking from actual experience with Rem 700s and Win 70s. I didn't even know the media had said anything about Remmy QC, but I can tell you from personal experience that Remington QC has been spotty over the years. So has Winchester's. I expect no more or less from Sabatti or any other mass producer.

Alaskaman 11 The media had nothing to do with the Remington problem, unless you mean the complaints from people on the internet about the rifles accidental discharges when the safety was pushed to the on position with the chamber loaded. Like Blaine said , I too have personally witnessed the accidental discharge on two occasions, on the firing range when the rifle was chambered and the safety pushed to the on position. Luckily on neither occasion was anyone hurt. On the Winchesters of the 1960s there were a number of things I could name for you like iron sights mounted askew on the barrels, and hole drilled the same way for scope mounting, on the mod 70s. I don’t know of any safety issues with the Winchesters, but for a time the quality was not real good. At least one death I’m aware of was tied to the Rem safety firing the rifle hitting the shooter’s son killing him instantly. Of course the rifle shouldn’t have been pointed at anyone, but the rifle shouldn’t have fired either.

The safety/firing issue was also witnessed by me in Alaska on a moose hunt, where a friend of mine had a new Remington mod 700 .338 Win Mag. When a large moose bull walked out of the timber my friend got ready when the bull go about 30 yds away, and when he pushed the safety to the fire position the rifle fired. He did not touch the trigger at all, but the rifle fired anyway. He sent the rifle back to Remington, and they simply replaced it without a word of explanation, and asked no questions. That, IMO, is because they were already aware of the problem, and wanted nothing in writing about the affair. We wore the replacement out on the range to make sure the new one was OK. I have a Mod 700 .7mm Rem mag from the mid sixties, that I have had zero problem with but I wont allow anyone to borrow that rifle, and I only use it from a blind when I’m alone, even though it has never had an accidental discharge. I don’t use it for dangerous game because it is a push feed rifle, and is chambered for a small chambering in 7mm Rem Mag. The reason I keep it is because I don’t want to sell it to anyone who may be hurt by it and because it belonged to my father who took it in a trade never used it, and I inherited it when he died back in 1980.


.................................................................Opinions vary! However the post above is not just opinion!

..............................................................................

I would REALLY hate this thread to wander into the issue of Rem 700 triggers. I am well versed on that, but the trigger/safety issue isn't why I replaced all my Remmy centerfires a fews years ago with CRF M-70s. A properly adjusted and maintained 700 is a safe rifle. I went to CRF M-70s because in my experience they are a bit more durable and reliable while being every bit as accurate.

The reason I brought up the QC issues with Remington AND Winchester was simply to point out that Sabattis are more like mass produced Rems and Winnys than they are like semi-custom Krieghoffs and Merkels. As such, they will be subject to the same QC missteps as that Remmy and Winny have made over the years.

If you want a guaranteed perfect double out of the box, then Sabatti isn't for you. If you are unable or unwilling to spend the money for that guaranteed perfect double, AND you are willing to fuss with sorting it out, then Sabatti may be a good choice. I'll know personally by the end of the summer.

Blaine,
If you don't already have a copy of "Shooting the british double rifle" by Graeme Wright I would highly recommend getting one. I would have saved myself $50 worth of Woodleigh's had I bought the book sooner.

Thanks! Just ordered it!

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Glad no one was injured. But can't understand how you could actually swap it out with another Sabatti after that experience.
No insult intended but if I were you I would spring for the extra $$$ and just order a Searcy Field Grade.

Some guys thinks Cabelas has super customer service for standing behind these rifles under such bizar circumstances. Personally I think they are being dicks for continuing to carry them. They should send every rifle back to Sabatti and tell them to shove the rifles up their ass.

I feel the same way. I'm in the construction business and earlier in my career I led a design team. During that time it became very apparent to me that if a lower price was the only, or even the most important, objective, quality was the variable used in achieving it. I think someone at Sabatti should have had that printed on a banner and hung in their design room.

I don't own a Sabbatti for the same reason I won't own a cheap off brand Chinese made ATV or power tools. I simply don't have time for the BS!

You are not really saving any money in the long run and the hassles and unreliability are not worth the time and brain damage. My theory is to save and buy the most inexpensive real life reliable working rifle. IE Searcy, kreighoff, Chapuis, Heym PH, ETC ETC..

A Sabbatti is like one of those "Rolex" watches you can buy in China. IT looks like a Rolex, but it's made with plastic gears and instead of a crystal face it's made out of polished lead glass. there is a reason you can buy a Chinese "Wolex" for $30.00 and there is a reason you can buy a Sabatti for what you can buy it for. No matter how you rationalize it, the rifle is a low quality POS and you are going to have hit or miss performance with it.

Buying a cheap double for use in DG hunting is a lot like using the kid next door who got his training on you tube to pack your emergency parachute because it saved you a couple of bucks.

You might never really need that chute or that double but the day you do you'd better hope it works.

Using the above logic we should never buy a Remington, a Winchester, a CZ, or a Leupold. I PERSONALLY have had to hassle with all of those quite a bit. I guess we need to ad Merkel to the list because I imagine it is quite a hassle when both barrels fire at the same time.

Reliability? Enough people have used Sabattis with excellent results over the last few years that it shows that the reliability about the same as all the rest. High end wood, cut checkering, and fancy engraving are fluff that simply adds cost to a rifle. The ONLY way to ensure reliability is to take a rifle and shoot it a lot until you know everything about it, good and bad. No rifle, no matter how much it costs, is reliable unless a shooter has taken the time to sort it out.

I personally cannot make an evaluation or a generalization based on one-off events with a rifle some amateur gunsmith screwed up. Initial missteps in manufacturing that have long been corrected are not persuasive to me either. I also need more than opinions of those who have never used the thing they are so adamantly opposing.

A few years ago a Taiwanese company began offering trumpets to the US market. People immediately slammed this "Chineese Junk". No doubt there are a lot of junk products from China. However, I actually played on one of these horns before I knew anything about them. It played as well as any American or Japanese built horn but at half the cost.

My primary trumpet is a proprietary American designed and built horn that is blueprinted after manufacture by a highly skilled craftsman. I love this horn, but my backup horn is a one of those Taiwan horns that is 1/3 the price but plays 98% as well. Yes, I once had an issue with a Taiwan horn, but I also had an issue with my super horn. In fact, I had another superhorn that was a full custom build that had more issues than any other horn I have ever owned. I was able to get everything sorted out, but if I were to be honest, the most trouble free horns I have had have not been high end equipment.

I have also had a lot of custom rifles that were a hassle to sort out. Given my personal experience, there is often very little difference in the amount of hassle between sorting out a high end piece rifle or trumpet vs a mass produced rifle or trumpet. In fact, the high end piece is often more of a hassle.

That is why Sabatti is worth a serious effort to me.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
I don't own a Sabbatti for the same reason I won't own a cheap off brand Chinese made ATV or power tools. I simply don't have time for the BS!

You are not really saving any money in the long run and the hassles and unreliability are not worth the time and brain damage. My theory is to save and buy the most inexpensive real life reliable working rifle. IE Searcy, kreighoff, Chapuis, Heym PH, ETC ETC..

A Sabbatti is like one of those "Rolex" watches you can buy in China. IT looks like a Rolex, but it's made with plastic gears and instead of a crystal face it's made out of polished lead glass. there is a reason you can buy a Chinese "Wolex" for $30.00 and there is a reason you can buy a Sabatti for what you can buy it for. No matter how you rationalize it, the rifle is a low quality POS and you are going to have hit or miss performance with it.

Buying a cheap double for use in DG hunting is a lot like using the kid next door who got his training on you tube to pack your emergency parachute because it saved you a couple of bucks.

You might never really need that chute or that double but the day you do you'd better hope it works.

Sorry, but I completely disagree. And as you all know I returned mine for the muzzle issues, but I challenge anyone here to do a side by side comparison with a Merkel and see what you think. Really, no passion, just objectivity.

Jorge

If you get a good one without the muzzle issues,
yes, they look, feel and obviously shoot OK.

But as I think Mac and surestrike said in so many words
1. If they cut corners once, how many other things have they cut corners on that they are not telling ?

2. What is the quality like after 5, 10, 15 years ? Are things going to wear unexpectedly
and fail at the wrong moment ?

That's all.

We know Sabatti can make good guns, they have been doing it for long enough.

Personally, I think they are better balanced than some of the Merkel's - and I own a two Merkels.

I'm going to have to step in here on behalf of the Merkel as well. The one I owned, that Lionhunter now owns, was 100%. Never had an issue with that rifle. It was hell for stout, and was one hell of a shooter. I must have shot a thousand rounds or more in that gun and never had it double on me.

The only reason I sold it was I really wanted a bespoke rifle and finances were such that I could only afford one at the time. I killed 3 elephants and a couple of buffalo with that rifle. I'd have NO qualms whatsoever in owning another one.

jorge

Has anyone actually identified what the cause
of these "doublings" in Merkels actually is ?

ie Has it been proven in all cases that
it was mechanical not the shooter.

I know of (heard) one or two cases over here,
not sure of the exact problem but it turned out to be grease inside that had collected on one side due to lying in the box for ages - I know it was damn hot that year !!!

What this whole discussion boils down to is two opposing truths. We do get what we pay for, but there is also the law of diminishing returns. Finding where those two ideas intersect is always a point of controversy. Ten years ago I bought a $1000 lawnmower when the average lawnmower was selling between $200 and $400. It has worked great, yet I know a lot of guys whose $200 lawnmowers work as well for them. So who made the better purchase?

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
Using the above logic we should never buy a Remington, a Winchester, a CZ, or a Leupold. I PERSONALLY have had to hassle with all of those quite a bit. I guess we need to ad Merkel to the list because I imagine it is quite a hassle when both barrels fire at the same time.

Reliability? Enough people have used Sabattis with excellent results over the last few years that it shows that the reliability about the same as all the rest. High end wood, cut checkering, and fancy engraving are fluff that simply adds cost to a rifle. The ONLY way to ensure reliability is to take a rifle and shoot it a lot until you know everything about it, good and bad. No rifle, no matter how much it costs, is reliable unless a shooter has taken the time to sort it out.

I personally cannot make an evaluation or a generalization based on one-off events with a rifle some amateur gunsmith screwed up. Initial missteps in manufacturing that have long been corrected are not persuasive to me either. I also need more than opinions of those who have never used the thing they are so adamantly opposing.

A few years ago a Taiwanese company began offering trumpets to the US market. People immediately slammed this "Chineese Junk". No doubt there are a lot of junk products from China. However, I actually played on one of these horns before I knew anything about them. It played as well as any American or Japanese built horn but at half the cost.

My primary trumpet is a proprietary American designed and built horn that is blueprinted after manufacture by a highly skilled craftsman. I love this horn, but my backup horn is a one of those Taiwan horns that is 1/3 the price but plays 98% as well. Yes, I once had an issue with a Taiwan horn, but I also had an issue with my super horn. In fact, I had another superhorn that was a full custom build that had more issues than any other horn I have ever owned. I was able to get everything sorted out, but if I were to be honest, the most trouble free horns I have had have not been high end equipment.

I have also had a lot of custom rifles that were a hassle to sort out. Given my personal experience, there is often very little difference in the amount of hassle between sorting out a high end piece rifle or trumpet vs a mass produced rifle or trumpet. In fact, the high end piece is often more of a hassle.

That is why Sabatti is worth a serious effort to me.

Didn't your originals st describe a situation that only through the grace of God nobody was shot? Either you pulled the trigger or you didn't; with the quality issues at Sabatti I don't know which and figure either is equally possible. If you came on here and said you had this issue with a Merkel, Heym, VC, etc... everybody would be pointing the finger at you, but that is not happening, and it speaks volumes about people's confidence in Sabatti. The fact that you posted it in the manner that you did speaks to your confidence in your rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
What this whole discussion boils down to is two opposing truths.

Yep, those who know Sabatti's had or have problems and those who deny it

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7

Didn't your originals st describe a situation that only through the grace of God nobody was shot? Either you pulled the trigger or you didn't; with the quality issues at Sabatti I don't know which and figure either is equally possible. If you came on here and said you had this issue with a Merkel, Heym, VC, etc... everybody would be pointing the finger at you, but that is not happening, and it speaks volumes about people's confidence in Sabatti. The fact that you posted it in the manner that you did speaks to your confidence in your rifle.

I was the Grace of God that when the rifle hit the concrete and the second barrel discharged that no one was hurt. However, since then, no one has been able to tell me of any Sabatti with a 2 lb trigger pull. On fact, the complaint is usually about how HEAVY the Sabattis triggers are. My current Sabatti in 450 NE has an 8 lb front trigger pull. The 500 had a lot of wear in the butt pad screw holes, just like what you see when someone repeatedly removes a pad with the wrong screw driver. There were also scratches and marks on the butt stock. Given today's highly litigious society and the fact that all Sabattis are test fired, it makes a lot more sense that someone monkeyed with it than it does it left the factory that way.

Even if it did leave the factory that way, if I applied the same standard toward Sabatti many here are advocating, then I'd have to reject everything I have ever used. I once had a Timney trigger new in the box--that had so little sear engagement I knew it would slamfire. I installed as is anyway and guess what? When I tested it slam fired. I had a Shilen trigger that always had creep, and even a highly experinced gunsmith couldn't adjust out the creep. Oh yeah, the 450 NE snap cap I just got from NECG won't fit in the chamber. So they must be a crappy brand as well.

If you work with enough of something long enough, you will find one that has problems. That is why one initial bad experince won't put me off something. Crud, that Krieghoff or Merkel or whatever brand double (not Sabatti) in 470 NE that slapped me in the face some 15 years ago should have put me off doubles all together, right?

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
What this whole discussion boils down to is two opposing truths.

Yep, those who know Sabatti's had or have problems and those who deny it

Interestingly, I haven't noticed any Sabatti owners denying anything. The consensus among those who have owned them seems to be most are okay, some are bad.

Anyway, enough of this. By the end of the summer I'll know if my Sabatti 450 NE is any good. I will report my experience with it on this forum, both the good and the bad. None of you guys really know me, but Jorge will completely get this. Based on what I have accomished in my life, I have become enough of an arrogant azzhat that my opinion of my own personal superiority won't change if my Sabatti turns out to be the POS so many here hope it will be.

Now please excuse me while I go mow my lawn with my $1000 lawnmower.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by afp:

Using the above logic we should never buy a Remington, a Winchester, a CZ, or a Leupold.<< snip

Using your logic to buy a double rifle made by maker that will allow anyone to use a grinder to attempt to fix a botched regulation that was done improperly in the first place is not logic but head in the sand thinking.

A few years ago a Taiwanese company began offering trumpets to the US market. People immediately slammed this "Chineese Junk". No doubt there are a lot of junk products from China. However, I actually played on one of these horns before I knew anything about them. It played as well as any American or Japanese built horn but at half the cost.

It is one thing to use your logic and take a chance on a piece of brass tubing with valves being a bargain that may be fine and quite another to take a chance on a double rifle that may be the only thing between you and a cape buffalo that wants nothing more than a chance to kill you!

High end wood, cut checkering, and fancy engraving are fluff that simply adds cost to a rifle. The ONLY way to ensure reliability is to take a rifle and shoot it a lot until you know everything about it, good and bad.

It is not wood and/or checkering that is the problem with Sabatti. It is the piss poor regulation, and the use of a grinder to attempt to fix it when it doesn’t work properly. These are the marks of an amateur not a quality double rifle maker. Even the bottom dollar double rifle is not worth spit if it isn’t regulated properly. Even at $5K if the rifle is not properly regulated it is not worth taking home.

You can take my warning or leave it, that is your right, money, and butt on the line, but I think I would be remiss in my responsibility to simply say nothing in warning. As I said earlier the wood and checkering is not the problem here it is the JIG regulating, and when that doesn’t work rather that re-regulating the proper way, trying to fix it with a grinder neither of which is the proper way to regulate a double rifle. Using the Jig regulating and a grinder inside the barrel is the work of a plumber, not a double rifle maker.

I submit there is not one other maker of double rifles today who does the jig and grinder crap to regulate a double rifle.

…………………………………………………….I’m out of here, and through wasting my time on this!

I leave you with one last thought! Think about this! What possible gain could I derive from warning you of this, other than that I may have saved you some money and possibly your life, or someone else in your party when the rifle doesn’t work properly?
Kill the messenger! That will make the rifle a reliable item!
...................................................................... ..........

quote:

What possible gain could I derive from warning you of this, other than that I may have saved you some money and possibly your life, or someone else in your party when the rifle doesn’t work properly?
Kill the messenger! That will make the rifle a reliable item!

Mac,

Back when I was a check airmen and an instructor at my airline, I could always tell a recently separated senior Air Force officer. But I figured out real quick I just couldn't tell them much. They generally need to hit themselves on the head real hard once or twice before they gain a certain degree of clarity.

I wish AFP the best of luck but with his new Sabatti.