Do you need to develop a specific load for each barrel to acheive best accuracy from a double?

If so, how do you manage your ammunition in the bush to ensure the correct round gets in the barrel it was loaded for?

Thanks.

Ideally you wouldn't, though I'm sure some guns might need that. I have found however with my gun that it shoots my softs and solids differently, even though they are both 500 grain Woodleighs. This causes a slightly different load in them. Distinguishing between them in the field at a glance obviously isn't hard, and I carry my softs on one end of a shellholder and the solids on the other.

You could, most likely, get slightly better accuracy from each barrel by working up a "PERFECT" load for each barrel, but your double rifle would be useless for hunting! A perfect load in each barrel would require you to load the right load in the right barrel or they would not group well from that individule barrel, and even if the right load was in it's own barrel, you would need sights for each barrel, and I doubt the rifle would shoot to regulation, with different loads in each barrel.

Getting a regulating load for the double rifle is hard enough without purposely makeing it more difficult! There is, as SPRING says, usually a slightly different load for softs, and solids, but not for individule barrels. The solids usually use a slightly lower powder load than the softs, to hold down chamber pressures, but only a gr or two!

benchrest rifles are built for sub-moa accuracy.
DR's are built to minute of elephant...

Rich
DRSS

So what is your point Idaho Sharpshooter?

I have followed LRH270's post and my perception was that different velocities were required to acheive a satisfactory level of accuracy from the rifle. Also, I have read Graeme Wright's work Shooting the British Double Rifle and here again my perception was adjusting barrel loads for accuracy.

Further, I have read posts of riflemen shooting coyotes at 270 yards and African game out to 300 yards with doubles. That certainly is not Minute-of-Elephant accuracy.

I worked on a double one time that would group well out of each barrel but no matter what I did with loads I couldn't get anything to group in BOTH barrels. Finally out of complete frustration I bothered to check the twist... 2" different between the barrels!!!!...

That gun would have been a great candidate for separate loads for each barrel but we pulled it apart and made it match instead.

Kyler

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
I worked on a double one time that would group well out of each barrel but no matter what I did with loads I couldn't get anything to group in BOTH barrels. Finally out of complete frustration I bothered to check the twist... 2" different between the barrels!!!!...

That gun would have been a great candidate for separate loads for each barrel but we pulled it apart and made it match instead.

Kyler

This happens on occasion! not with different twists in each barrel, but with two barrels that simply will not tollerate the same load in both barrels. Or one barrel is simply not up to par, and will not group well. This is the reason most double rifle makers will do a group with each individule barrel with the regulating ammo to be used. If one barrel simply doesn't work well with the load, that barrel is simply replaced, with one that does group well with the regulating load. This is done before the barrels are even connected at the muzzles, or ribs layed. The Chopper lump barrel blanks are usually well matched, and only rarely will you find a pair that will not live together with the same load, but the time to find out about it is before all the work has been done and you find they will not co-exist.

My perception is that doubles are regulated from a standing bench and the forend of the double is not resting or supported like a bolt action would be. Is this correct? And, would accuracy be affected by resting the forend on something like shooting sticks or a benchrest?

Thanx.

In the process of testing different loads and bullets you may discover that one barrel of your double shoots several different loads into the same group, while the other bbl only groups with the first with only one or two loads.

This is useful info as you can use the "normal" regulation load in the "other" bbl and use different loads in the "common" grouping bbl.

This is especially useful when hunting game other than what the rifle is intended for.

Example, you have a 470 Nitro that shoots good with the standard 500 gr bullets.

But you have been unable to get 350gr bullets to regulate, but in your right bbl the 350 gr bullet hits the same place as the 500 grainers.

So when hunting deer and pigs, you can put a 350gr in the right bbl and use your standard 500gr bullet load in the left.

I hope the above is a clear explanation.

quote:

benchrest rifles are built for sub-moa accuracy.
DR's are built to minute of elephant...

Well, are you sure about that???

Here's (4) rounds i fired, "Bottom top" [reload] "bottom top" at 100 yards to simulate "hunting conditions" with my double 9.3x74R



This is NOT the best my DR shoots, it's an "average" that i'm able to duplicate...

Looks to me like even a rabbit would be in trouble at 100 yards if i was after it...

DM

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Do you need to develop a specific load for each barrel to acheive best accuracy from a double?

If so, how do you manage your ammunition in the bush to ensure the correct round gets in the barrel it was loaded for?

Thanks.

What rifle are you shooting and what are the results so far?
Bill

Bill,

I don't have a double rifle. NE .450 No2's thread directed at bolt action owners and range report threads prompted me to ask this question.

I have looked at doubles for long time.

N E 450 No2,

Your post is a clear explanation.

Question: is accuracy of a double affected by restng the forend on shooting sticks or a benchrest as opposed to shooting off-hand?

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
You could, most likely, get slightly better accuracy from each barrel by working up a "PERFECT" load for each barrel, but your double rifle would be useless for hunting!

This is strongly my view also. As far as I am concerened, the primary purpose of double rifles is for providing two quick shots when you really, really need them, and need them NOW. There are certain kinds of hunting where the chances of that can't be ignored, and for me that's when I carry a double.

For other conditions it is usually more practical for ME to use a bolt gun for which I have found suitably accurate loads and don't have to worry about how that load might shoot in another barrel.

In reference to Idaho Sharpshooter, I'm sure that's what he was alluding to above. He wasn't being literal in his statement, just pointing out that different kinds of rifles are for different kinds of shooting games.

And, although it may be interesting to try different loads in different barrels of doubles, just to see what COULD be accomplished accuracy-wise, it begs the questions of just why one has a double in the first place.

If one has a double as a wealthy man's toy, he can develop different purpose loads for each barrel, ending up with maybe varmint, medium game, and DG loads for each barrel, and have his secretary carry the 6 different loadings of ammo for him and keep it properly sorted when he goes to use it. But, when the chips are down and you need two shots this instant, loads which group 2-3" at 75 yards are probably adequate.

Of course, some doubles will shoot much better than that, and if so the owner's have every right to be delighted. But if they don't, it is more important for ME to keep them accurate to a practical level with anything I have in my pocket...and that means just one load for both barrels.

Alberta Canuck,

Probably Adequate when the chips are down?

What's the next choice?

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Alberta Canuck,

Probably Adequate when the chips are down?

What's the next choice?

There is NO next choice!! Stepping aside from arm-chair theorists and book-learning alone, when the chips are down, you have to, as the old saying goes, "make do with what you have to do with".

Now, if one wants to fart around with sorting out loads for individual barrels when his life is perhaps at stake, that is his privilege. But, may I suggest he might possibly cut short his contributions to the gene pool by so doing?

And for any other situations, he is probably best off with some other kind of rifle. That doesn't mean doubles can't do other duty, but the "other duties" are probably not what kept them being built over the years.

For up close and intensely personal duties, 2" at 75 yards translates to 0.67" at 25 yards, which is plenty accurate in the hands of ANY real rifleman, for use on an animal big enough to need stopping. Even 3" at 75 yards = 1" at 25 yards. I haven't seen anything (except maybe a snake or a bacterium) that I recall having feared, which had a smaller vital zone than that.

Make Due With What You Have To Do With? What does that mean? You are making a decision up front.

What did you mean in your post Probably Adequate?

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Make Due With What You Have To Do With? What does that mean? You are making a decision up front.

What did you mean in your post Probably Adequate?

I am afraid you will have to go argue with yourself in the company of your books. Mac and I, both of whom share a common view based on our experiences with rifles, including many doubles, have tried to make the point to you that what you propose is useless in the game fields/situations for which the double rifles were primarily intended.

If you disagree, fine. I hope you are very happy with that view should you ever actually acquire a double either as your own, or on loan during a hunt.

I am not arguing with you. I have not proposed anything. I asked a question.

Are you drunk?

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I am not arguing with you. I have not proposed anything. I asked a question.

Are you drunk?

How many ways need he tell you the same thing? Give it up.

Will:

Do you shoot a double for accuracy testing from a benchrest like a bolt action is tested for accuracy or do you shoot it without resting the forend.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Mac and I, both of whom share a common view based on our experiences with rifles, including many doubles, have tried to make the point to you that what you propose is useless in the game fields/situations for which the double rifles were primarily intended.

And they're both right.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

You shoot a double rifle with your forward hand holding the barrels and resting on bags on the standing bench. You forward elbow also rest on the bench top or a pad or bag on the bench top.

In my experience, there is no shift of POI from using a bag under the toe for elevation either. Your rear elbow is resting on the bench top or a pad on the bench top.

If the standing bench is built correctly, it will support your weight as you lean against it.

The combination is excellent for accuracy, but not on par with a totally bag supported bolt rifle with only trigger hand contact or trigger hand and forward hand pulling down and back on the forend of a heavy kicker.

Either the bolt and bags or the double and proper standing bench, etc are accurate enough for load development and FAR, FAR exceed any field expedient position for accuracy or, for that matter, accuracy requirements in the field.

JPK

They are right about what?

They are right about two loads, one for each barrel, being entirely impracticle and unneccesary in the field.

JPK

Thanks JPK.

You're welcome.

Regarding 450 NE No2's comment about mixing loads. Not a bad thing, but anything that can be killed with a .458", 350gr soft point can be killed with a .458" 500gr solid too. You really only need your heavy solid and soft loads to shoot to the same POI. And the softs are only needed for lions and leapards.

Any thing else that shoots to POA for the heavy loads is gravy.

JPK

Ok. Thanks agin JPK.

I didn't realize it would have caused that much trouble to have asked that question.

I'll know better next time.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Ok. Thanks agin JPK.

I didn't realize it would have caused that much trouble to have asked that question.

I'll know better next time.

Buliwyf, Don't get discouraged, nobody was ragging on you, but simply answering your question to the best of our ability,from two or three different perspectives, and you aren't familiar enough with the ins, and outs, of double rifles to use what we were telling you.

No disrespect intended, but this seems to be a frequent thing with engeneers. The thought process seems to be, if it looks good on paper, then it must work, in reality. However,there are just some things that simply do not follow, what seems to be a simple logic, and the double rifle is one of those things. In any event, there are no stupid questions, only questions not asked, and when asked, not answered!

MacD37, "...in reality. However,there are just some things that simply do not follow..."

A very fine way to try an explain the in's and out's of art as opposed to science.

I have noted with my O/U Browning that I acquired in 1984 and have shot pretty extensively that the lower tube is the more accurate barrel. I must confess that as a reloader I am sorely tempted to try and see if a finer degree of regulation, or greater accuracy could be achieved through slightly different loads.

Too much time on my hands I guess!

I don't get discouraged that easy MacD37. There was nothing wrong with my question. There was a lot wrong with the best ability pompous responses from some posters.

I'm not clear if you're saying doubles are low tech, finicky, uncertain, some work, some don't, some are 300 yard tack drives some can't hit a 50 yard target or all of the above; it's pot luck. Not sure what to expect from a .30-06 or other small bore double compared to large bore from your response. I'd don't buy black magic.

There is a clear distinction when it comes to double rifles vs bolt rifles, imo - at least for dangerous game. When it comes to practice, the bolt will seem to lead, it is generally more flexible with bullet weights and selection powder selections and weights, easier to load for, can be shot better off of a bench since it can be fully supported by bags, has only the foibles of one barrel to contend with, and speed is only what YOU make of it; when it comes to the field the double will pull way ahead since, at least for me, they are more easily shot well in typical close range situations, handle more surely and quickly and more smoothly - all at the same time, the trails and tribulations of loading for the rifle are long past, any finicky tendencies or barrel foibles have already been long worked out and the speed is right for when you DON'T set the pace.

Field accuracy with either won't be bench accuracy, field accuracy will be more than adequate with either when dangerous game is the goal.

If you only gain confidence with your rifle by punching small groups beyond dangerous game ranges then a bolt is the only rifle for you. If fluidity, quickness, and speed are what builds your confidence, then a double rifle is the ultimate and final form for you.

Significantly, I have yet to meet the dangerous game PH who doesn't aspire to ownership of a double rifle, except those who already own one.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I am not arguing with you. I have not proposed anything. I asked a question.

Are you drunk?

buliwyf, why are acting like a jerk?

OK, lets try this again from the top then.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Do you need to develop a specific load for each barrel to acheive best accuracy from a double?

No, never. If the rifle does not give an adequate standard of composite accuracy with the same load in both barrels, it is out of regulation, and needs to be re-regulated, re-barreled, or flogged.

quote:

If so, how do you manage your ammunition in the bush to ensure the correct round gets in the barrel it was loaded for?

That's just as impractical as it sounds. Obviously, having to do it that way would negate the advantage of the double rifle entirely, so it isn't done that way. If you can't just pull the shells out of your pocket, cram 'em in the chambers and rock 'n roll, you have a cluster fuck, not a double rifle.

Most of the answers you got above were trying to tell you the same, but I think you got hung up on a misconception that has some of us stumped, at least it does me. I'm not sniping at you at all, but I can't imagine where you got the idea that developing a different load for each barrel is the norm. Not only is it not, but very, very few would consider it acceptable.

It's true that if you're going to hunt among thick skinned game, you have to deal with different bullet types. Some like to load one barrel of each for buffalo, but for the reload, you'll usually only be loading solids. For other species you're normally loaded with one or the other, and will reload with same. Keeping the softs and solids separate and knowing where to reach for one or the other doesn't take much getting used to.

Yes, doubles are like other rifles in that some are more finicky than others, and some are truly vexing.

quote:

I don't buy black magic.

Not good. If you ever join the double rifle ship of fools, you may find it helpful.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

To make more clear "why" I feel different loads for different barrels are not a good idea generally, a few more comments.

First, there is the whole question of time when using a double in a sticky situation. I have never timed a lion charge with a stopwatch (never even seen one seriously charge at a man with malice aforethought), but those who have say Leo can cover 100 yards from a standing start in about 3 seconds when highly motivated. In that charge he likely does not achieve full speed for maybe the first 25 yards, so he must be going pretty danged fast over perhaps 50-60 yards of the distance. Maybe the last 10 yards he MIGHT slow an imperceptible bit to make sure of his last leap.

That's not a lot of time to correct any mistakes made in having accidentally gotten the wrong cartridge into the wrong barrel, if a person even realized he had done so. Especially as the ground is likely not perfectly flat and smooth and Senor pussy-cat may be "jinking" a bit and hard to hit to start with. Other DG may not be as fast as the felines, but it is often much more difficult to stop if the first shot doesn't do the job.


Sure, one should never have gotten the rifle loaded wrong to start with, but Mr. Murphy is alive and well.

Second, if it is merely a matter of altering the powder charge slightly, likely no mechanical harm will be done by getting the wrong cartridge in the wrong barrel. But if a person changes the bullet-seating depth in the quest for better accuracy, or even uses a different bullet of the same weight, he COULD potentially find that a round which performs the very best in one barrel will either not chamber in the other, or once in there sticks a bit. Not too likely, but "Hi, Mssr. Murphy. Not too glad to see you again..."

Next, it takes a surprisingly small difference in loads from those for which the barrels are regulated, to produce groups where one shot is dead on and the other is as much as 8 inches away. That could potentially result in neither barrel shooting to the point of aim if the load for the left barrel was put in the right and vice-versa.

Personally, I find the use of doubles, or any other rifle,very logical. One cannot anticipate every eventuality, so he has to consider what will happen in the worst case scenario, and how to have the best chance of avoiding creating that worst case. For me, and maybe me alone, I thence use bolt action rifles if I want/need as near perfect accuracy as possible and have lots of time (and relative safety if I screw up). I like to carry a double when there is a chance I might be the hunted one, and when carrying a double I use and recommend a load which will do the job regardless which barrel it is thrust into.







I

500grains:

Take another look at the posts and determine if you've asked the right question to the right person. I recommend you pose your question elswewhere.

Alberta Canuck:

I'm clear on your posts. Don't give me any more advice. Please.

JPK,

As I've said, thanks for your efforts to provide useful information. I was not certain of the zeroing technique of a double. Apparently, I'm not the only one that did not know the proper procedure.

Yes, there are two roles for a rifle in the type of hunting we're discussing. Dangerous game and non-dangerous game. If a light/medium caliber double is employed against non-dangerous game then longer shots are to be expected. I have an opportunity to acquire a light caliber double but wasn't sure how to use it until I read posts from MacD37(I think it was MacD37) about a rifleman shooting coyote at 270 yards and hitting it with both barrels from his double and also taking African non-dangerous game at 300 yards with his double. That sounds like bolt-action accuracy to me and wanted to explore this further. I did not know if a large bore double was treated differently than a light/medium double.

I had no idea my question would prompt the pompous arrogrant condescending posts from these "legend in their own mind" posters or I would have pursued my question with knowledgable sources to start with.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I had no idea my question would prompt the pompous arrogrant condescending posts from these "legend in their own mind" posters or I would have pursued my question with knowledgable sources to start with.

None of those who tried to answer your question were pompous, arrogant or condescending. Each one took the time to sit down and draft an answer to your question, which they didn't have to do, and it looks to me that they did their best to provide a good answer.

Your clear implication that the folks who answered you are not "knowledgable sources to start with" IS pompous, arrogant, and condescending. Don't ask a question and then insult and argue with someone who makes a good faith attempt to answer it.

Guys:
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."