quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:

Dang, 308Sako, what happened to that rifle? looks like someone broke the pistol grip, and on e of the triggers off, then twisted the barrels round the wrong way!


Just kidding you, that is a very nice rifle, even if it is a stack barrel!

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

benchrest rifles are built for sub-moa accuracy.
DR's are built to minute of elephant...

Well, are you sure about that???

Here's (4) rounds i fired, "Bottom top" [reload] "bottom top" at 100 yards to simulate "hunting conditions" with my double 9.3x74R



DM

That is a good grouping, but is still a little fast! The rifle is crossing, probably at about 50 to 60 yds. If the loads were slowed only slightly the barrels would most likely shoot paralell, with the top barrel shooting on top, and the bottom barrel shooting on the bottom. This would give you perfect regulation, and would shoot paralell from muzzle to as far as you can see to shoot! Both barrel shooting to the right can be adjusted by drifting the back sight slightly. VERY GOOD hunting accoracy, and the individule barres are printing VERY good accuracy, for any kind of rifle! Congratulations!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:

Dang, 308Sako, what happened to that rifle? looks like someone broke the pistol grip, and on e of the triggers off, then twisted the barrels round the wrong way!


Just kidding you, that is a very nice rifle, even if it is a stack barrel!

Mac, It's a long story about this one, so we would need lots of and probably a few so that it would come out truthfully. Shall I begin with the time I doubled it single trigger and all? Or the double on whitetail bucks? Perhaps the regulation change which was un-requested and caused by the claws being installed. Going from the factory of 150 grain to 200 grain bullets, for which I would have paid extra had I known. Or that long weekend with the Barlow whittling the grip and recheckering....



Appreciate the humor.... continue to fire away 2 at a time.

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
Perhaps the regulation change which was un-requested and caused by the claws being installed. Going from the factory of 150 grain to 200 grain bullets, for which I would have paid extra had I know.

I remember this gun. I remember the string you posted when that happened. The story is worth repeating, as some here insist that messing up the regulation by adding a scope is an old wives tale.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
Perhaps the regulation change which was un-requested and caused by the claws being installed. Going from the factory of 150 grain to 200 grain bullets, for which I would have paid extra had I know.

I remember this gun. I remember the string you posted when that happened. The story is worth repeating, as some here insist that messing up the regulation by adding a scope is an old wives tale.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I agree, and there many that are new to double rifles as well, and may not know this, or don't believe it!

Here is a link to that posting.

regulation change


Once again I thank the contributors whom taught me more in a few posts than a graduate croarse in engineering could have. Experience counts!

quote:

That is a good grouping, but is still a little fast! The rifle is crossing, probably at about 50 to 60 yds. If the loads were slowed only slightly the barrels would most likely shoot paralell, with the top barrel shooting on top, and the bottom barrel shooting on the bottom. This would give you perfect regulation, and would shoot paralell from muzzle to as far as you can see to shoot! Both barrel shooting to the right can be adjusted by drifting the back sight slightly.

Regulation isn't a problem at all as i can regulate the bbls where i want them myself... Actually, i now have the bbls chambered for an 9.3x74R "imp", so i'll be working up loads for the new chamber and reregulateing the bbls when i decide on a "new" load for this rifle....

I'm anxious to see what velocity improvements the new chamber will give, but it's just too cold to monkey with it right now. The whole project is shelved at the moment waiting for warmer weather.

DM

400 Nitro Express:

You and your cronies are are pompous, arrogant, and condescending. You have not made any good faith attempts to be helpful. Who do you think you're kidding about sitting down to draft a good answer. I'd rather you keep your useless opinions to yourself.

quote:

400 Nitro Express:

You and your cronies are are pompous, arrogant, and condescending. You have not made any good faith attempts to be helpful. Who do you think you're kidding about sitting down to draft a good answer. I'd rather you keep your useless opinions to yourself.

Welcome to AR....One must have thick skin to dwell here for long. Don't take it personally...I've been slapped around on this forum before and have lived to tell the tale...Yes some of these guy's "Cyber" manners could use a little tune-up, but so be it.

To take a jab at your question I would suppose that one could tweek loads for each bbl. Every barrel has it's own set of ballistically generated coefficients, thus will never shoot identically to its mate, so I guess your question has merit, but porper regulation should mitigate the majority of the aforementioned JMHO.

And, since this forum is named "Accurate Reloading" reckon your inquiry does have a legitimate place here.


JW

Ok Jeff.

Don't "guess" my question has merit. It either "does" or "does not".

I won't be slapped around by 400 Nitro Express and his/her cronies.

Welcome to AR. Look forward to talking with you more.

quote:

Buliwyf
one of us
Posted 14 Apr, 9:46 PM Hide Post
400 Nitro Express:You and your cronies are are pompous, arrogant, and condescending. You have not made any good faith attempts to be helpful. Who do you think you're kidding about sitting down to draft a good answer. I'd rather you keep your useless opinions to yourself.

quote:

Posted 10 Feb, 11:36 AM Hide Post
So what is your point Idaho Sharpshooter?

quote:

Posted 12 Feb, 1:45 PM Hide Post
Alberta Canuck
Probably Adequate when the chips are down?

What's the next choice?

quote:

Posted 12 Feb, 2:16 PM Hide Post
Make Due With What You Have To Do With? What does that mean? You are making a decision up front.

What did you mean in your post Probably Adequate?

quote:

Posted 12 Feb, 2:27 PM Hide Post
I am not arguing with you. I have not proposed anything. I asked a question.

Are you drunk?

quote:

Posted 12 Feb, 5:31 PM Hide Post
They are right about what?

quote:

Posted 12 Feb, 5:44 PM Hide Post
Ok. Thanks agin JPK.

I didn't realize it would have caused that much trouble to have asked that question.

I'll know better next time.

NRA Life Member
SCI Member
You can't shoot fast enough to make up for misses.

quote:

Posted 12 Feb, 10:13 PM Hide Post
I don't get discouraged that easy MacD37. There was nothing wrong with my question. There was a lot wrong with the best ability pompous responses from some posters.

I'm not clear if you're saying doubles are low tech, finicky, uncertain, some work, some don't, some are 300 yard tack drives some can't hit a 50 yard target or all of the above; it's pot luck. Not sure what to expect from a .30-06 or other small bore double compared to large bore from your response. I'd don't buy black magic.

quote:

Posted 13 Feb, 7:43 AM Hide Post
500grains:

Take another look at the posts and determine if you've asked the right question to the right person. I recommend you pose your question elswewhere.

quote:

Posted 13 Feb, 7:45 AM Hide Post
Alberta Canuck:

I'm clear on your posts. Don't give me any more advice. Please.

quote:

Posted 13 Feb, 8:16 AM Hide Post
JPK,

As I've said, thanks for your efforts to provide useful information. I was not certain of the zeroing technique of a double. Apparently, I'm not the only one that did not know the proper procedure...

I did not know if a large bore double was treated differently than a light/medium double.

I had no idea my question would prompt the pompous arrogrant condescending posts from these "legend in their own mind" posters or I would have pursued my question with knowledgable sources to start with.

quote:

Posted 14 Apr, 10:09 PM Hide Post
Ok Jeff.

Don't "guess" my question has merit. It either "does" or "does not".

I won't be slapped around by 400 Nitro Express and his/her cronies.

Welcome to AR. Look forward to talking with you more.

Your words say it all. Quite the tantrum.

You had a large ship on your shoulder from the beginning. You received some very well thought out and correct responses to your questions. It was not the answers that were given, it was how you interpreted them.

There is one of three things going on here:
1. You have zero familiarity with concepts involving firearms in general and therefore cannot comprehend the answers you received;
2. Your extrogen levels are extremely high;
3. You hate the world as a result of multiple inadequacies of a personal nature.

I hope you have figured out by now that a double rifle is not for you. Patience is a necessity in learning about doubles, and your knee jerk combative nature is not conducive to any association with a double rifle - or any sharp object for that matter.

I honestly cannot understand what your story is, but you have provided more than ample evidence that you came to this forum just to stir up some crap. You certainly did NOT want an answer to any of your questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Ok Jeff.

Don't "guess" my question has merit. It either "does" or "does not".

I won't be slapped around by 400 Nitro Express and his/her cronies.

Welcome to AR. Look forward to talking with you more.

Buliwyf, I don't understand what got you so up in the air, maybe I'm missing something, but the only thing I read or posted here was to try to help you! Jeff Wemmer is wrong the tital of this forum is not Accurate Reloading, the tital of this forum is "DOUBLE RIFLES" and whether you believ it or not, they are very complex firearms, and require certain things that do not make sense to most single barrel rifle shooters. Stateing that fact is not arrogance, but fact. Once the load is found for your double then you can shoot it just like any other rifle, except the rifle must be allowed to recoil as if it were being firs from the shoulder off hand. This is because the regulation depends on the the rifle recoiling the same way every time it is fired. The two items that are a must are "BARREL TIME", and "RECOIL ARCH"! To keep those consistant, one must not let the rifle rest dirrectly on and thing other than you hands, face, and shoulder. That is not BLACK MAGIC, it is simply the way the rifle was designed to opperate!

I simply do not understand you attitude here, the working up a seperate load for each barrel can certainly be done, but that would negate the reason a double rifle was intended for in the first place, to have two intirely indipendant single shot rifles on the same stock, that shoot to the same useful composite group. The use of a different load for each barrel would be a logistics nightmare, trying to keep track of which load to stick in which barrel, in a quick reload, IMO.

I'm certainly sorry you were offended by the answers we gave you, but I assure you they were honest, and all were true. Simply because you don't believe something, doesn't make it untrue. You have the facts, and I hope you will at least try some of the suggestions, because I think you will be pleasently suprised at the result! Sir you were offended for no reason, and if you look the world over, you will never find a more helpful group ythan double rifle shooters! Again welcome here, and welcome to the double rifle shooters world!

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
400 Nitro Express:

You and your cronies are are pompous, arrogant, and condescending. You have not made any good faith attempts to be helpful. Who do you think you're kidding about sitting down to draft a good answer. I'd rather you keep your useless opinions to yourself.

Yawn.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
400 Nitro Express:

You and your cronies are are pompous, arrogant, and condescending. You have not made any good faith attempts to be helpful. Who do you think you're kidding about sitting down to draft a good answer. I'd rather you keep your useless opinions to yourself.

Buliwyf,

I have read this whole thread. Are you kidding with this? You are clearly being an argumentative A-Hole (AKA a ) . You have received exactly the info you asked for from multiple posters and then you say that they did not make any good faith attempts to be helpful???? Get a life.

Bulldog563 and others,

No. I'm not kidding with you. I asked a question that deserved a respectable answer.

No. I'm not argumentative.

Crony Wemmer:

quote:

No. I'm not kidding with you. I asked a question that deserved a respectable answer.

No. I'm not argumentative.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Bulldog563 and others,

No. I'm not kidding with you. I asked a question that deserved a respectable answer.

No. I'm not argumentative.

Uh-oh. It's Friday night and Bullwinkle is drunk again.

No kidding eh "Cronies"!!!

Scheesch!

Crony Manion; Crony 400 Nitro Express; Crony Wemmer (scheissh what a horrible name)

Answer the question you cronies.

The question was answered several times, by several different people.

Just what is your problem?

I have a few ideas of my own on this one but you could'nt tourcher them out of me. I'm not getting in the middle of this.

The key to double rifles is to be practicle. That can be a hard thing to do when most of them cost an impractical amount of money.

Just remember what they are and plan on useing them accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
The question was answered several times, by several different people.

Just what is your problem?

He doesn't want an answer, nor does he have anything to contribute. He just wants to be a troll.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I make a motion that the DRSS start a new 'degree' of membership. That of the Auspicious and Right Regulated Cronie.

Do I hear any seconds?

Steve
DRSS

Buliwuf
When working up loads for a double it is a good idea to keep all of your targets.
Then as testing progresses you can see if the double has any tendencies.

If you cannot fine a load that regulates in your gun, you can go back and pick the best load that gave the best individual bbl groups and have the double re-regulated to that load.

In my experience I have never had to have this done, but it is not a big deal, JJ Perodeau does excellent work.

I have also never had any problems getting an "elephant gun" to shoot lighter bullets for practice, deer and pig hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Ok Jeff.

Don't "guess" my question has merit. It either "does" or "does not".

I won't be slapped around by 400 Nitro Express and his/her cronies.

Welcome to AR. Look forward to talking with you more.

Let me give it a shot.

No, your question does not have merit.

If you would have spent as much time thinking about the answer as you did typing the question you would also know this.

quote:

When working up loads for a double it is a good idea to keep all of your targets.
Then as testing progresses you can see if the double has any tendencies.

If you cannot fine a load that regulates in your gun, you can go back and pick the best load that gave the best individual bbl groups and have the double re-regulated to that load.

In my experience I have never had to have this done, but it is not a big deal, JJ Perodeau does excellent work.

I have also never had any problems getting an "elephant gun" to shoot lighter bullets for practice, deer and pig hunting.

Damn 450 - now you're really going to get Bullwinkle all riled up. Get his antlers all in a knot. A response that will surely earn you the "Cronie" label....

I am still very interested in the original question regardless of the person who asked it or their past history.

So if a double absolutely will not group satisfactorily even after regulation by JJ or whomever why not develop a different load for each barrel?

This seems appropriate for buff if as Spring said, you load a soft in one barrel and a solid in the second.

Why not develop a load for each barrel - one soft and one solid that each shoot close to the sights?

Is possible confusion in the management of ammo more critical than the first two shots being reliable?

Pressure and it's relationship over the barrel time determine the regulation of your load. Fitment can affect this from one barrel to the other. I cannot realistically recommend different loads for each barrel as it is nothing more than an accident waiting to happen.

quote:

So if a double absolutely will not group satisfactorily even after regulation by JJ or whomever why not develop a different load for each barrel?

Allen,

The short answer to that is it is time to get new barrels. You do not have a double rifle at that point. You have two rifles that work separately.

That is one of the reasons for the cost of a double - making two separate rifles work as one.

Shooting a double rifle is partly about eliminating variables. You have two quick shots versus one. You have two triggers in case something happens to one of the mechanisms. And so on.

Ideally, in developing loads, your solids should shoot to the same point of impact as the softs in both barrels. You want those two shots, regardless of the ammo you grab, to shoot the same.

Also, different loads in each barrel mean different pressures and barrel wear.

If you are in the position of developing different loads, you have introduced another variable that could lead to a mistake. Making sure your notes on development are clear for each barrel. Making sure that you segregate right from left on the loading bench. Making sure you have a way of quickly distinguishing the proper cartridge for the proper barrel in the field.

It is surely going to slow down your reloading time in the field if everything else goes according to plan. And in the heat of the hunt, very little goes according to plan, if there is even a plan.

Actually my response was not designed to rile up anybodys feathers.

Having to use seperate loads in the bbls of a double are a bad idea IMHO as in the heat of reloading you will not get it right.

Now this question was asked by a non double rifle owner... I really do not see the reason for everybody to get upset.

Barring some kind of damage to the double I see no reason why it would not be possible to find a load that would shoot good enough in both bbls, especially when we consider re-regulation being done by a professional.

Actually I must say that my Chapuis shoots loads with the R and L bbls with 286 Woodleigh Softs, and the 286 Nosler Partitions at 100 yards that overlap and are tight enough that I can use them with the same sight setting.

However If I put a Woodleigh Soft in the Right bbl and a Nosler Partition in the Left, these 2 form a tighter group than either bullet shot in both bbls.

Also with a double in a cartridge suitable for shooting at a longish range say 300 yards or so, equiped with a scope it if, you left and right bbls do not shoot close enough together for reliable hits on the game you are hunting, , you can sight in the scope for one bbl, and use the double as a single shot for extended shooting.

A lot of people seem to have concerns about getting a double rifle to shoot accurately.

In my experience It has not been difficult at all to get doubles to shoot.

I think this difficulty is highly overrated.

In my 3 doubles I have loads for each of them using several different bullets that hit to the same zero and regulate well. Also I have loads with 3 different powders with one and with 2 different powders in another double all shoot and regulate together.

I have killed game out to 300 yards with my 9,3 [with scope], out to @150 yards with my 450/400 and out to @188 yards with my 450 No2.

quote:

Now this question was asked by a non double rifle owner... I really do not see the reason for everybody to get upset.

And his question was answered by no less than a dozen members here. For whatever reason, he did not like the responses, and called folks here arrogant, pompous, drunks, etc, told some members to piss off or to mind their own business.

Reading the responses he got before his melt down, I saw nothing there that warranted such attacks. At this point, he is only posting here to stir up some crap.

You are all wrong, including the evil cabal of "Cronies."

What is needed is a separate set of sights for each barrel. Cheap so-called doubles of the .45-70 variety sans regulation have long sported this wonderful feature.

Preferably the sights would be two parallel mounted, 3-12x power variable scopes.

Jeez, does the originator of this thread ever prove the old adage: There are no stupid questions, only stupid people!

Uh oh, does that make me a "Crony?"

quote:

Now this question was asked by a non double rifle owner... I really do not see the reason for everybody to get upset.

Perfectly true, assuming that he asked the question in good faith. If you'll re-read the string, his responses to numerous posters' good faith efforts to answer his question clearly indicate that he did not. He didn't really ask a question at all, he just tossed out a red herring to argue with everyone about, like a good little troll.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Palmer:
I am still very interested in the original question regardless of the person who asked it or their past history.

So if a double absolutely will not group satisfactorily even after regulation by JJ or whomever why not develop a different load for each barrel?

This seems appropriate for buff if as Spring said, you load a soft in one barrel and a solid in the second.

Why not develop a load for each barrel - one soft and one solid that each shoot close to the sights?

Is possible confusion in the management of ammo more critical than the first two shots being reliable?

Allen, if both shoot close to the sights, one being a soft, and the other being a solid, and both shoot close to the sights, then what you have done if found the regulating load for each. This is a common practice. Working up a solid load that shoots to the regulation, then working up a soft that will group with the solids. I submit that two loads worked up that way, that shoot close to the sights, will shoot close to the sights with either barrel, or either load. If the rifle has been re-regulated, then the loads will shoot to the sights, or the re-regulation was not properly done, or one or both barrels are worn out. I suspect that sceenario, would more likely be the loader, than the regulator!

Thanks Jim and Mac. Its gradually starting to sink in to me.

My specific reason for pressing on this is because of my favorite carry rifle - my Jeffrey 450/400 3".



Its a lot like me - short of perfect. JJ speculates that it was run over by a safari vehicle some time since 1924 (I prefer to think an elephant stepped on them) and instead of straightening the barrels some idiot just cut them off to about 20".

When I got the rifle it would not hit a gallon jug at 15 yards. JJ worked on it all day one Friday and up til noon on Saturday. He finally reached a point where he said that is as good as it is going to get.

I have already used it for two Selous buff and dearly love to tote it around because it is so handy with those short barrels.

If I ever had to go back in the bush again at night after a wounded leopard this is the rifle I would like in my hands.

However I have found that I can load a soft and solid or even two softs with a different load and get a better group. I color code the brass with markers and carry the softs on the left side of the belt and solids on the right side.

Nevertheless your points are well taken and it is probably time to take it back to JJ and ask him to make a new set of barrels. I just hate to not use the authentic ones especially since I like them the way they are - ugly but handy.

Allen, I'm not one to shun short barrels! In some places the shorter the better, and your follow-up on leopard in the dark is one of those places. I say if JJ is going to make a complete set of barrels for your action, then I would keep the short barrels, and have JJ make them even shorter, as a set of barrels strictly for the close quarters follow-up barrels, on cats.

I have a boxlock action,(20 ga size) that I've been mulling over the idea of makeing a set of 20" barrels for,45-110, 500 Alaskan,or 50-110 and with a pickintiny under the barrels for a Surfire light,and with a big moon bead front sight, just for that purpose. I don't think I'd want to mess with different loads for each barrel, however!

quote:

Originally posted by Palmer:

So if a double absolutely will not group satisfactorily even after regulation by JJ or whomever why not develop a different load for each barrel?

This seems appropriate for buff if as Spring said, you load a soft in one barrel and a solid in the second.

Why not develop a load for each barrel - one soft and one solid that each shoot close to the sights?

Is possible confusion in the management of ammo more critical than the first two shots being reliable?

Allen
I would say that the reason you don't work up different loads for the two barrels beyond what you might do for your softs and solids is that you would then end up hunting with as many as four different loads on your cartridge carrier--a soft and a solid loaded for the left and a soft and solid loaded differently for the right. Unlike the simplicity of loading a soft and solid in your gun for general purposes, there could be times when you'll need solids in both barrels. Loading for each barrel would cause the need for two sets of solids, and correspondingly, two sets of softs. There's definitely a point where confusion could impact your hunt, and four different loads to allocate could well reach that point.