Crony 400 Nirto Express:

My question was asked in "good faith" as has been my contribution to AR. You, 400 Nirto Express, are the Red Herring.

quote:

You, 400 Nirto Express,

Nirto? Bullwinkle, you even slur your words when you type. Getting a early start on the weekend, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Crony 400 Nirto Express:

My question was asked in "good faith" as has been my contribution to AR. You, 400 Nirto Express, are the Red Herring.

Christ. Friday night and Bullwinkle is drunk AGAIN!
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

MMMMMMMMMMMmmmmm


beginning to wonder if I asked my 500 test results question of the right "experts"

To be clear - I am going to use this on buff and ele and cant afford a theoretical answer

pls ONLY respond to earleier question with FIELD AS WELL as test experience

There is not a double rifle ever ever ever ever ever built you can use off the bench that will drop yr 500+ grns bullet where you need it on mad cow at the same point as from the bench

get off yr arse and onto tripod sticks in a field grip STANDING (which may include holding barrel as well as forend and dont give mer this harmonics rubbish) and then sort sights

quote:

Originally posted by Hollis500:
MMMMMMMMMMMmmmmm


beginning to wonder if I asked my 500 test results question of the right "experts"

To be clear - I am going to use this on buff and ele and cant afford a theoretical answer

pls ONLY respond to earleier question with FIELD AS WELL as test experience

There is not a double rifle ever ever ever ever ever built you can use off the bench that will drop yr 500+ grns bullet where you need it on mad cow at the same point as from the bench

get off yr arse and onto tripod sticks in a field grip STANDING (which may include holding barrel as well as forend and dont give mer this harmonics rubbish) and then sort sights

I am not really sure what was intended by this comment. This is a forum where folks share ideas and provide input on issues that come up with double rifles. I think we all realize that no one has all the answers to every issue that comes up.

Frankly, if you are looking for answers based on actual field experience with a Hollis 500 shooting 570 grain loads, and cannot afford to hear anything else, your best bet is to go to a double expert who can help you conduct the actual field tests with your double and work up the proper load.

Most of us pose questions here to get ideas or possible solutions. Then we hit the range to see what works and what does not.

No one should EVER take anything on this board or any loading manual for that matter as gospel without proving it out at the range. Every rifle is different. Every powder, primer, case and bullet combination will shoot differently.

The FIELD experience you refer to should be your own, not based on the experience of someone else.

The alternative to that is to have loads developed for you by an experienced double person or one of the specialty ammunition companies that takes your rifle to develop loads that perform in your particular rifle.

Good luck with your rifle and your upcoming hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Hollis500:
MMMMMMMMMMMmmmmm


beginning to wonder if I asked my 500 test results question of the right "experts"

To be clear - I am going to use this on buff and ele and cant afford a theoretical answer

pls ONLY respond to earleier question with FIELD AS WELL as test experience

There is not a double rifle ever ever ever ever ever built you can use off the bench that will drop yr 500+ grns bullet where you need it on mad cow at the same point as from the bench

get off yr arse and onto tripod sticks in a field grip STANDING (which may include holding barrel as well as forend and dont give mer this harmonics rubbish) and then sort sights

quote:

By Jim Manion

I am not really sure what was intended by this comment. This is a forum where folks share ideas and provide input on issues that come up with double rifles. I think we all realize that no one has all the answers to every issue that comes up.

Frankly, if you are looking for answers based on actual field experience with a Hollis 500 shooting 570 grain loads, and cannot afford to hear anything else, your best bet is to go to a double expert who can help you conduct the actual field tests with your double and work up the proper load.

I was wondering the same thing! Sounds a little like Bullwincle!

Hollis500, The answers you get here will be, for the most part based on field experience with "DOUBLE RIFLES"! There are some things that simply are nature to double rifles, no matter what you are shooting at, and those are the things you get from those here who have been working, and hunting with double rifle for many years. Like Jim said, if that isn't helpfull to you, then the choices he pointed out, are your best bet!

.....................BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by Hollis500:
MMMMMMMMMMMmmmmm


beginning to wonder if I asked my 500 test results question of the right "experts"

There is not a double rifle ever ever ever ever ever built you can use off the bench that will drop yr 500+ grns bullet where you need it on mad cow at the same point as from the bench

Oh yes they will.

quote:

get off yr arse and onto tripod sticks in a field grip STANDING (which may include holding barrel as well as forend and dont give mer this harmonics rubbish) and then sort sights

This is absurd. When doing load development and checking regulation, you can't tell much off sticks. You need to be using a good rest. Doubles are regulated shooting from a bench rest, not sticks. Holland, like most DR makers, uses a standing bench rest. Purdey uses a sitting bench rest. Set up properly for a double rifle, either is fine.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Cronies Manion, 400 Nitro Express, and MacD37 you are a hateful lot. You hijacked and disrupted my post and as typical of your behavior made no contributions to my question. What is absurd, is your hypocrisy and slapping each other on the back for your arrogance and incompetence. You cronies better stick together.

Let me give you some advice; if you can't make a helpful contribution stay off the thread!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Cronies Manion, 400 Nitro Express, and MacD37 you are a hateful lot. You hijacked and disrupted my post and as typical of your behavior made no contributions to my question. What is absurd, is your hypocrisy and slapping each other on the back for your arrogance and incompetence. You cronies better stick together.

Let me give you some advice; if you can't make a helpful contribution stay off the thread!!!

None are so blind as those wo will not see!

Buliwyf, simply because you do not agree with the answers, to your questions, doesn't make them wrong! It seems a little childish to ask a question,especially on a subject you have zero experience with, then because you don't believe the answers, start calling names to the people who try to answer you!

Let me offer YOU some advice! If you don't want to hear the answers, don't ask the questions!

People call me all the time wanting to know how well they should expect their double rifle to shoot.

It is simple...You shoot your regulation load 4 shots from each barrel for group, that is 4 with the right and 4 with the left, like you were shooting two guns. the barrel that shoots the "WORST" is all that gun can do, that "worst" barrel determines the accuracy potential of that gun...that is the size it will shoot no matter what you do to it short of getting a new barrel. If the right barrel shoots two inches and the left barrel shoots 3 inches, you have a 3 inch gun, end of story.

Why is this so hard to understand?? Why don't most double gun owners know this? This has baffeled my for years, but it is a fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Cronies Manion, 400 Nitro Express, and MacD37 you are a hateful lot. You hijacked and disrupted my post and as typical of your behavior made no contributions to my question. What is absurd, is your hypocrisy and slapping each other on the back for your arrogance and incompetence. You cronies better stick together.

Let me give you some advice; if you can't make a helpful contribution stay off the thread!!!

Ah, the Friday night liquid courage rant.

Bullwinkle. You were getting serious answers to your question and for some inexplicable reason, you began to tear into those trying to help you and answer your question.

You blew into a hissy fit and began insulting just about anyone and everyone. If anyone disrupted things, you did it to yourself.

Since you rejected almost all of the responses provided, you obviously have all the answers. So why ask in the first place?

Can't wait until next Friday night's installment.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
People call me all the time wanting to know how well they should expect their double rifle to shoot.

It is simple...You shoot your regulation load 4 shots from each barrel for group, that is 4 with the right and 4 with the left, like you were shooting two guns. the barrel that shoots the "WORST" is all that gun can do, that "worst" barrel determines the accuracy potential of that gun...that is the size it will shoot no matter what you do to it short of getting a new barrel. If the right barrel shoots two inches and the left barrel shoots 3 inches, you have a 3 inch gun, end of story.

Why is this so hard to understand?? Why don't most double gun owners know this? This has baffeled my for years, but it is a fact.

Well you Double people sure are a weird lot.
You all state a DB is as good as having two seperate rifles. Now, if I had two seperate rifles each would have their own grouping ability.

WHY must you expect to fire BOTH barrels ALL the time. WHY, if the piece is regulated to fire Right Left, Right Left, etc., expect it to group well shooting four in one barrel while a cold barrel hangs on one side?

And as for the quick two shots story, say your up close to a Buff and give him the two barrels, under the keep shooting till he's down story, THEN he charges. A four shot bolt sounds good to me then.

Just keeping you fellers honest.

Jal
Until you have used a double rifle some it might be hard to understand, and appreciate the advantages they have to offer.

You do not have to fire both bbls all the time.

Examples:
You can fire both bbls and reload both bbls.

You can fire one bbl and reload one bbl.

You can also fire both bbls and being under duress, reload only one bbl and fire it.

I have used a double rifle quite, a bit and have never found a time where I was at a disadvantage.

On a stopwatch a double will not fall to far behind a 4 shot bolt action for the first 4 shots, after that, the double will be faster for shots 5 and 6. If you have a 3 shot bolt action, the double will be faster on shot 4.

Also, if you are in a situation where you shoot a say, three singles, ie shoot one, there is a short lull in the action, shoot one , short lull, shoot one short lull,[ remember you will easily be able to reload the double in the short lull], and then you need more than one shot, you bolt gun will be running dry about now and you will still have 2 shots in your double.

It takes a lot longer and more dexterity to top off a bolt fun than to reload a double.

I have on video, a couple of times I have brain shot an elephant at 6 yards or less, and reloaded my double before the elephant is finished falling to the ground.

Use what you like best, I own bolt rifles and doubles, I much prefer a double for DG, by a wide margin.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Well you Double people sure are a weird lot.
You all state a DB is as good as having two seperate rifles. Now, if I had two seperate rifles each would have their own grouping ability.

............And each barrel on a double does have it's own grouping ability!

quote:

WHY must you expect to fire BOTH barrels ALL the time. WHY, if the piece is regulated to fire Right Left, Right Left, etc., expect it to group well shooting four in one barrel while a cold barrel hangs on one side?[/QUOTE

It will group as well useing one barrel as it does using both barrels. The cold barrel on the other side doesn't have any effect on the the grouping of the other barrel for size, only for regulation with the other barrel. However, one needs to know the grouping potential of each barrel, so he knows when he has reached the limit he can expect for the regulating composit group size! This is what RAY is talking about!

The way this is done is, not to fire all rounds from one barrel, but to number your shots Example: first shot numbered "No1 RT", second shot "No2 LFT", third shot "No3 RT", and fourth shot "No4 LFT, with two targets on the same back board side by side, firing all the RT barrel on the right hand target, and the lft barrel on the Lft hand target. In the case of finding the composite group size, it is better to fire three shots from each barrel, this makes it easier to find the center of each group. This is needed becacuse the sights need ot be zeroed exactly half way between the centers of both groups. This will not only give you proper individual barrel groups, but show where each barrel is hitting on the target in relation to the single set of sights for both barrels. This allows you to find the center of each barrel's individual group, which is what you are looking for, not just bullets holes. Once the center of each barrel's group is found, and marked on the targets, one target can be overlayed on the other target, and the bullet holes in the top target traced on the back target with a pincel. The back target will then give you the composit group! This allows you to speed, or slow down the load to get proper regulation!



[QUOTE] And as for the quick two shots story, say your up close to a Buff and give him the two barrels, under the keep shooting till he's down story, THEN he charges. A four shot bolt sounds good to me then.

Just keeping you fellers honest.

The two quick shots, you speak of are no different than two quick shots on a Buffalo from any rifle, it is just that it is quicker than two quick shots with a bolt rifle. Considering that no matter which you are useing, if both shots hit the target, the difference is the second shot from a double hits the animal before he's had time to recover at all from the first shot, giveing more impact with the two shots from the double, that with a bolt, both being of the same power. This little time difference gives the double user more time to reload for 3 & 4! Two equally good shooters, one useing a bolt, and the other useing a double, the first two "AIMED" shots will be well ahead of the bolt, and with the reload for 3 & 4, No3 will be about equal to No3 in the bolt, and No4 will be well ahead of No4 from the bolt rifle. This is because between every shot in a bolt rifle one must make 6 movements, where the double must make one, a change of trigger! This adds time for his reload for 3 & 4, and if four shots doesn't do it, the bolt man is faced with a very long re-load! Is that honest enough for you?

JAL!

Your right we double rifle people are a queer lot!

A double rifle if used correctly is primarily a single shot rifle with a second rifle in reserve. John "Pondoro" Taylor expressed it best. He said one should never fire the left barrel without reloading the right barrel first. Of course he was talking about when you are hunting in thick cover and could be charged at any time from very close range. The left barrel is always kept in reserve for the unexpected charge. In the open or when you have back up that can be modified a bit. Often we speak of the value of the quick second shot but I view it slightly differently. As an example let's say we are charged by an angry cow elephant from close range, 15 yards. In Zim we must wait until it gets within 10 meters to claim self defense. It could well be giving us a mock charge and if so we really don't need to shoot it. When it crosses that 10 meter line we may have time for two shots with the double and a very fast bolt user may also be able to get off two shots. With the double we can do it quicker and thus have more time to make sure our second shot is true than with a very hurried second shot from a bolt rifle. The real advantage to a bolt is if you are charged by multiple elephants, thank goodness that is a very rare but not unknown occurrence.

465H&H

Thanks fellers, I new I was wrong, but didn't know why. Now I do. But for a newbe with a double, thinking of myself for instance, I think it would be a long hard road before I could fumble a 2 round reload on a double quicker than I could operate my slick M70.

Another problem (I) may have with a double is as outlined above, whether to fire both off or try for a reload for 1. I know it comes from experence, but you just don't have that problem with a bolt until maybe the fourth or more. After that, well . . . it could be all over.

Thanks again for you all's patience. Or maybe you like talking about those "funny" guns.

Jal
After you hunt with your double for a while you will figure out when to shoot one or two, reload one or two etc.

I use a butt stock shell carrier by Murray Leather, which makes for a fast reload.

On my 450/400 and 450 No2 the regular cloth butt stock shell carriers would scrape my face in recoil, the Murray leather ones do not.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Thanks fellers, I new I was wrong, but didn't know why. Now I do. But for a newbe with a double, thinking of myself for instance, I think it would be a long hard road before I could fumble a 2 round reload on a double quicker than I could operate my slick M70.

Another problem (I) may have with a double is as outlined above, whether to fire both off or try for a reload for 1. I know it comes from experence, but you just don't have that problem with a bolt until maybe the fourth or more. After that, well . . . it could be all over.

Thanks again for you all's patience. Or maybe you like talking about those "funny" guns.

The quote from Taylor on the re-load of the one barrel fired, is pertaining to the first shot fired on an animal in a hunting sittuation,or "runing and guning" in a chase, not durring a charge!


Most today, me included, carry the double with a soft in the right barrel, and a solid in the left, while hunting Buffalo. When a Buffalo is spotted that you want, you fire the first shot, very carefully, into the undesturbed animal, and immediatly reload that barrel with a solid, in anticipation of a charge!

So what you have is a fully loaded rifle to stand off what ever happens next. When the first barrel is reloaded, then two rounds are placed between the first two fingers of the left hand, for a right handed shooter. When the next two are fired,and a full reload has to be done, there will be three bullets in the animal, two solids, and one soft. Now you reload from those two between the fingers. If a charge happens at any point there after, you fire two (one at a time),break the rifle, and from those two fingers drop in two more solids.

By the time the rifle is dry now, you have 5 shots into the animal,from you, and how ever many from the PH, and one would hope that is all it will take. In any case after three the buff, will usually either be down, or, at least, staggered, giveing you more time to reload both barrels again!

That's text book, but of course, you must allow for Mr. Murphy, no matter if you are armed with a machinegun. Things go awry, and in that case, one must utter a Prayer very quickly!

Yep, it's all starting to make sence to me. All I ever needed was good teachers.