I likely spelled the word wrong, but is it true that a

correctly created, milled or cast TODAY DR action body

is just as strong in every way [OR STRONGER] as a pre

WWII and pre WWI FORGED UK made action body?

jack you should know better than to ask

The statements I am about to make here will likely cause a firestorm with the purists, who believe nothing made after 1929 is worth owning. However, like anything else technology evolves, and as long as the sweat, and tears of hand fitting is still done by extremely skilled artisans, the modern technology of making the raw materials should be applauded, not ridiculed!

................

Castings of today are actually better than the old forged action bodies. The same goes for lock parts, but where casting is not as good as forged is in the parts that have to have a great amount of elasticity, which doesn't include the action body, or the moveing lock parts.

Because the castings are less elastic than forged parts, things like barrels, have to be forged, and in the best scenario, IMO, the cold hammer forged barrels are the best, as far as accuracy of rifling, and resistance to wear, because of the very well aligned stress factors in the barrel.

The forged block for milling out the action requires so much machining,and is not only expensive, but that the steel requires a lot of stress relief caused the deep milling,and forgings are far more likely to have hidden fissures, than fluid castings. The casting, however, requires a minimum of surface machining, requiring far less stress relief, and is cheaper to finish, and lends it's self to CNC better than forgeings.

The fact that most good actions, today, are cast, is because of the metallurgy of today, castings far over shadows the forgings of old. Though the method of forging, and casting are both better than in the old days, this is not because of the method as much as it is the far better technology, and metallurgy that makes them both about equal, with the edge, IMO, falling on the side of casting. Since both are equally as good, why not go with the one that costs the customer less to buy. That is casting, but only the best casting?

Make no mistake, I do love the old double rifles with their 100 yr old patina, but there is no question in my mind the old actions are far more "springy" than a new casting of modern steel.

.................

Hi Trevor,

Boy, I feel like I am six and got caught with my hand in the cookie jar!

I had recently been messaging with some guys and this debate came up. I know

what you and Jonathan would maintain as unyielding truth. Then there's Mac here

who states his case and there will be others. I called out for a metallurgist

just to see if any of our guys have some fancy education that they wanted to show

off a bit and talk on the science of this topic. So, have we any "scientists"

out there who might jump in?

Hi Mac,

Thanks for the effort you put into your answer! You can bet Trevor of www.ttproctor.com
will NOT support you though, no matter how well you compose your reasoning.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Hi Mac,

Thanks for the effort you put into your answer! You can bet Trevor of www.ttproctor.com
will NOT support you though, no matter how well you compose your reasoning.

I'm sure you're correct in you thinking Trevor, would not recommend anything that would reflect a different direction from the way he goes, when selling double rifles that "START" at 20,000 pounds Sterling!

That is what I meant when I wrote my opinions would cause a firestorm, among the so-called purists. Something you must understand is, tradition is a thing that is dangerous to go against, on forums like this one.

It is considered heresy to dare to compare something modern as an equal to something treditional, especially in opposition to some one who sells something so expensive who disagrees.

The rifles on his web-site are beautiful, and are of the highest quality,of fit and finish, but they will do nothing better than another rifle that is well made on a modern cast action body, of modern steel, as long as the skilled work of fitting is equal.

That skill has nothing to do with decoration, but with the way the rifle shoots, and lasts with proper care! The so-called old world action he uses, is made of far better steel than the old rifles, made the same way, of the same quality of fitting, and finishing. The only difference is one is milled from a billet of modern steel, and the other is milled from a casting of modern steel. I, frankly don't see the value difference between the two actions,that would justify the price difference,based simply on one being a forging, and the other being a cast. When ALL steel is cast at some point in it's manufacturing, even the forging, though it is shaped partially by hammering.

Trevor gets his actions from a co. called Phillipson I believe.

I am told they make the forged action bodies for the old and famous

makers too. These are forged into the basic 'L' shape and because

of that, and that they are NOT milled into the 'L' shape from a block

of steel, the traditionalist will maintain THAT method results in the

strongest action body.

I would not doscount what Mac has to say - the man has over 50 years under his belt working with metal and machines, including fixing them. He has a real good grasp of what can take strees and what cannot in a real world setting.

the "old fashioned makers " are just that. old fashioned. they are scared shitless of the new technologies !

i am still astounded they have consented to make rifles using SMOKELESS POWDERS !

most likely the reason they cling to old and obsolete ways of doing things is they simply have not been informed and do not know any better.

aaaaah if one could only get them to come into the 21st century....... what work they might do

and at prices people could afford.

twenty thousand quid for a rifle from a relatively unknown maker ???? i don't think so.

for that money you can buy a used rifle from a best quality maker. Hollands, Rigby, Westley

Ruger casts, who else? What companies, small or large,

are taking a rectagular block of steel to the 'L' shape

by milling only?

What Mac is inferring without getting into the technicalities of steel production and part forming is correct. There are however, some general points to consider with regards to fabrication of steel mill products and the process of converting those materials into a finished part.

1) Steel used in manufacture of highly stressed parts (armaments) is hot rolled or cold rolled in the manufacturing process and that is usually how the material is delivered to a fabricator of part xyz. IE - rifle barrel or action material is not bulk cast material but extruded. The rolling process imparts properties to the material which give it better strength than the same alloy which is cast.

2) Regarding forming an action from stock material and the three methods stated in the previous posts:

a) investment casting is basically poured steel into a mold. This method does not allow for orienting the grain structure and flow in any particular way. (good)

b) machining from a block of HR or CR mill stock results in the grain structure and flow orientation along the axis as it was produced in the mill. (better)

c) closed die forging causes the material to flow along multiple axis' of the part and also forces air out of the material in the process.
(best)

This is an extreme simplification of the three processes and there are multiple variables in each method which could produce the best part with any of the three.

Some things to consider are the type of material to be formed, it's pre and post forming hardness, desired finish, and COST.

All three methods require final machining to produce something with very close tolerances and repeatability such as a rifle action.

As far as strength in a modern double rifle - any method done well is more than strong enough to live longer than the shooter.

I am not a metallurgist nor have I played one on tv. I do work building the best Fighter aircraft to ever fly the skies of earth aka the FA22 Raptor. There are a great number of parts included that are cast. The castings of today are much better than castings from only 40 years ago. Most of the castings are close enough in tolerance to be used as cast.
I did a reply in a post a while ago and I can’t find it where I did some research and had some real facts with links but I can’t find it. My bad. I should have saved it as this comes up on a regular basis.
Bill

I are a metallurgist , but I never played one on TV ! Grain orientation was significant only when they had 'dirty' [inclusions] steels .Todays have very small amounts of inclusions.I have a little impellor used in aircraft. It's made of investment cast 410 stainless steel and would rotate 90,000 rpm !Similar rotors are found in turbocharged cars.The old dirty steels would never perform like that.Investment castings are being used more and more for guns .Like any other process, if the right alloy and heat treat is used ,and the casting made properly it will be as strong or stronger than a forging !! One of the reasons the Titanic went down was dirty steel !!

U - B uh mettalurcheest eh??

Den yooz noze dat casteengs B El-Cheapo!

Dat Y day doan uze dem in da M-po-tent stuf!

Like.....

Landing gear struts

Turbine shafts

Crank shafts

Fasteners

Gun Barrels

Cartridge cases (deep drawing is a type of forging)

The Titanic went down cause it ran into something mo bigga den it be!

It also be havin' dum ass bulkhead desyne 2.

Enough with Titanic and it's brittle metal as

partially caused by the cold temp. it reached

in the icy ocean combined with other specifics.

[hitting a hard, big thing, etc.]
Lets NOT have this please! Now, back
to my original question...

Multiple choice.

Swords and fighting knives are made by:

A) Casting
B) Forging
C) Little elves in a hollow tree

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Multiple choice.

Swords and fighting knives are made by:

A) Casting
B) Forging
C) Little elves in a hollow tree

Jim,

C) Little elves in a hollow tree ?

Sure I saw them at work one day when taking a walk through the forrest !!!

a singular one COULD be, but on the whole, steel is 1000% better in predictibility today then 100 years ago.

I don't want cast parts. I know Ruger tested their investment casting technology to some astronomical pressure but that not the end of the story as I understand it. The reason forgings from solid steel are so strong is due to it haveing a grain quality on the molecular level, so it's strong like wood is strong, with the grains gripping each other in a weave and forming a chain of strength. There are high tech casting processes making their way into fine blade making, and I suspect it has it's origins in aviation, that mimic this "natural" (for lack of a better term) grain structure and it's very strong. Of course solid steel can be crap and fail too but from a fine gunmaker I'd prefer all parts be made from GOOD solid steel. That is until time comes that castings are as strong as solid steel. I don't believe they are and that's all that matters when I choose a product, especially a double gun. In fact I'm systematically retro fitting all DG bolt guns with aftermarket solid steel parts in place of castings. I do believe too that modern steel is better, often much better. It's made leaps even since the 80's I think.

500N

Elf sightings when in the forrest are generally associated with the consumption of mass qualtities of a spirit of the whiskey or scotch variety.

With the appropriate alcho-balance in one's system, it is amazing to see just what those industrious mites can manufacture.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
It is considered heresy to dare to compare something modern as an equal to something treditional,

And how! The 375 Ruger comes quickly to mind.



...sorry.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
500N

Elf sightings when in the forrest are generally associated with the consumption of mass qualtities of a spirit of the whiskey or scotch variety.

With the appropriate alcho-balance in one's system, it is amazing to see just what those industrious mites can manufacture.

Jim

Thanks, is that what it is.

Well I can tell you than Gin has the same effect as spirit of the whiskey or scotch variety !!!

Yep, they are industrious. Next they'll be producing modern steeled miniature Double Rifle's
with components for reloading !!! Can you imagine the uproar on AR ?!

I understand they are already producing a new variety of double out of cardboard, spit and bailing wire. I think they call it the "Spartan"

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
I understand they are already producing a new variety of double out of cardboard, spit and bailing wire. I think they call it the "Spartan"

Jim

Awesome !!! Very funny.


Showbart
What do you expect but apologise if the humour offended you.

We're loosing our compass heading boys...

This thread rocks! and I learned something ( apart of Elves making swords)

Getting back to the topic: Has anyone seen or heard of a modern SXS rifle fail bacause of inferior (investment casting processed) steels ? If not, why (maybe not enough time & use yet), & consequently then isn't this question more oriented toward theory (maybe a bad choice of words - not intended to doubt the facts presented on various methods of forming steel) than actual practicality ?

Good questions Frank Beller.
Lets see what info turns up now that you've asked them!

Another minor hijack; would the cast steel in Merkel big bores be any reason for our favorite well known DR dealer and DR smith to state that they don't feel these will hold up?

Edited to specify castings.

I believe the steel making process has much better quality control today then 100yrs ago...

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
I believe the steel making process has much better quality control today then 100yrs ago...

Mike

Ding, Ding, Ding, We have a winner!

I still wanna know who and where to find your avatar.

JACK, CONTACT

THE AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR METALS
NEWBURY, OHIO

THEY ARE THE INTERNATIONAL ASSN FOR METALS WORLDWIDE.

ASK YOUR QUESTIONS OF THEM.

BUT BE PREPARED TO ACCEPT THAT MODERN CASTING AND CNC MACHINED FROM THE SOLID IS AS GOOD,
OR BETTER THAN FORGINGS.

YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO GIVE IT UP, DO YOU, AND COME INTO THE 21ST CENTURY!

TOM

CNC machined from a solid billet shouldn't be compared to a casting for the sake of this discussion.

quote:

BUT BE PREPARED TO ACCEPT THAT MODERN CASTING AND CNC MACHINED FROM THE SOLID IS AS GOOD,
OR BETTER THAN FORGINGS.

Nonsense Man!! Have you gone mad!?!?!

You guys are totally clueless about metallurgy.There have been enormous changes even in the last 25 years in all aspects. For example sheet metal and frames of cars are very different .Improvements by "microalloying" new heat treatments [bainite etc] lead to lighter yet stronger parts.Even investment casting has improved in those years...The Titanic steel had large grain size , high brittle transition temperature and high number of inclusions - all leading to very brittle steel.While that quality was common then it would be quickly rejected today....Showbart, you're discription of forgings is way off base !!...We are now in the 21st century ,get with the program !

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
You guys are totally clueless about metallurgy.There have been enormous changes even in the last 25 years in all aspects. For example sheet metal and frames of cars are very different .Improvements by "microalloying" new heat treatments [bainite etc] lead to lighter yet stronger parts.Even investment casting has improved in those years...The Titanic steel had large grain size , high brittle transition temperature and high number of inclusions - all leading to very brittle steel.While that quality was common then it would be quickly rejected today....Showbart, you're discription of forgings is way off base !!...We are now in the 21st century ,get with the program !

So modern steel no longer has ANY grain structure? I wouldn't go so far to say that I was describing a modern forging, just a basic differnce between solid and cast steel AS I'VE COME TO UNDERSTAND IT. I'm recounting what I've read about modern knife steel, which itself was distilled down so a layman could understand it. But also what I've learned about modern motorcycles and some automotive. I can't recall how many times I've encoutered "grain structure in steel" when metals were being discussed. You say the Titanic's steel had grain structure, but modern forgings have no grain structure? Explain how I'm off base. Is it not true that the most modern, high tech castings mimic or recreate grain structure? I know enough about this to be dangerous. But my brother is a knife nut and I get lectures and updates on steel all the time. Steel is the bain of existence among these knife guys. I was only recounting what I'd heard/read, which is what all but a very few of us are doing. Bottom line is until time comes where I have no choice but to choose cast, I'll choose solid steel.

Has anyone ABSOLUTELY yet answered my question ..... I don't think so. Will my new modern SXS rifles (see my list below) hold up for a lifetime of shooting, or should I sell them & try and find a few old English rifles to replace them ..... still waiting to know.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
JACK, CONTACT

THE AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR METALS
NEWBURY, OHIO

THEY ARE THE INTERNATIONAL ASSN FOR METALS WORLDWIDE.

ASK YOUR QUESTIONS OF THEM.

BUT BE PREPARED TO ACCEPT THAT MODERN CASTING AND CNC MACHINED FROM THE SOLID IS AS GOOD,
OR BETTER THAN FORGINGS.

YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO GIVE IT UP, DO YOU, AND COME INTO THE 21ST CENTURY!

TOM

Tom's idea to call these folks makes sense to me, so I am going to do that.
Let's see if I get an answer that I can understand AND that I can relay...

As to my interest in coming into the 21st century, outside of medical advances I wish

I'd been born 80 years earlier [1880] and in England with a future as one of the early

Ivory Hunters. That's my fantasy, you all can keep your dreams of super models. I'll take
one good wife and a life of hunting based adventure any time!

Big Five , calling them will only get you another metallurgist !!! Showbart,I happen to be on a number of knifemaking forums , trying to teach makers about metallurgy.Much of that time is spent dispelling the huge number of myths there are in that field ! Forging vs wrought, 'edge packing' etc, etc.... Grain or grain flow becomes significant only when there are inclusions because after forging heat treatment changes the picture except for inclusions.