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A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING..... the advances in casting technology have been tremendous. better mould making practices, the ability to evacuate the mould during pouring have all led to high quality parts that are ready to use - often with little or no add'l operations. plus they eliminate the possibility of inclusions or voids . equally as important are modern heat treating methods and precision. the old "case coloring " wasn't done to make the gun look pretty.... it was the only thing they could do to "harden" the forged parts. that is only a surface hardening - not very deep. you can easily cut through it with a file. then the inside is soft. today we can control the heat treat throughout the part - not just on the surface. the diehards will cling to the old ways until they die off. i wonder if the "purists" only use forgings made from water wheel powered drop hammers ? or do they use hand hammers ? TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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So you're telling us that you're dangerous or what??  | |||
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>>>That is until time comes that castings are as strong as solid steel. I don't believe they are and that's all that matters when I choose a product, especially a double gun<<< Castings are solid steel. | |||
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SR4759 , you're just going to open up old wounds !  Someone early in this thread mentioned castings in a Merkel .There is a recent thread on the forum of a Merkel used to shoot very large numbers of dove in Argentina, 12,500 in 4 days .I think it's time to buy a Merkel !  | |||
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Mac, When you say that the old actions are springier than a new cast action could one extrapolate that to say that a springier action would be more likely to come off face or it would be easier to do so? This thread has made me curious. Thanks. | |||
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I have been told that Merkels have the STRONGEST actions of any and all doubles. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Some may disagree-  http://www.mckaybrown.com/www....nd_Action_Rifle.html DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Maybe I should have stated Merkels rank amongst the strongest of DR actions. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Well gentlemen I’m reluctant to get into this thread again because it has become, lately, the fashion to target my posts. However, I will venture two things, first the rash of new Off the shelf double rifles offered the shooting public lately, has, IMO, caused the venders of the fine old rifles to discount the value of the newer rifles because they can't meet their price point. This is understandable because it cuts into their livelihood by making the very valuables classics harder to sell to guys wanting their first double rifle. Remember the predictions when the Merkel doubles first came on the market. One vender in particular predicted they would go off face in 100 rounds or less. How many have you seen or heard about that have gone off face, after ten years, and hundreds of rounds down range? There are three methods, casting to very close to the final shape, forging to very close to final shape, and cut from bar-stock. Both the casting and the forging will have milling to close to final shape, and hand worked to perfect. The properly done bar-stock action is first has the excess material SAWED away, then just like the other two are milled, down to where the hand fitting begins. The absolute difference between the three types is the alloy they are made from, and the cost to the consumer. As far as being springy causing an off face condition, I can’t say, but springiness destroys brass, by bending it so the case head is out of line with the body of the case, and premature failure of the brass. That wasn’t a problem with the older doubles when new, because nobody re-loaded the brass. I haven’t seen the head separations with brass like Norma, in newly made rifles as much as in that older classic doubles. That may be that I just haven’t seen it, and it does happen as often as it does with the older rifles, but I haven’t had the problem with any of my newer doubles, but have with some of my older doubles. None of my older doubles shows sign of being off face by any of the accepted tests for that condition. You tell me the answer! ……………………………………………….  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Has anyone actually answered the original question??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I believe they are just as strong or stronger than the old rifles. Please don't get me wrong, I believe there is no better ballanced, finely fitted, than the older Brit rifles! They are a joy to behold, and own. As has been said if only they could talk what tales they could tell! However one of their best things is not their steel, and I would love to have one of the old rifles made from modern steel alloys! If it were new, however,I have no doubt the classic lovers whould still downgrade it as inferior! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac, I wasn't taregting your posts, just interested in your thoughts. Thank you for the reply. I don't know enough about machining and metalworking to tender an opinion but what you have said all seems to make good sense. BTW, my double is a new Verney-Carron, just have never been all that interested in the vintage guns, I have also always preferred the M70 Classics to the pre-64s. I tend to not be of the school that "older is better" and I have great respect for the advances that have been made in all areas of technology and manufacturing over the past few decades but I have no issue with those who disagree. There are many who would much rather have a vintage Dodge Charger rather than a new one, for example, but give me one of the new ones any day of the week. That's the nice thing about a free market of products and ideas, there's room for everyone. Thanks again. | |||
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Originally by MacD37: "Please don't get me wrong, I believe there is no better ballanced, finely fitted, than the older Brit rifles! They are a joy to behold, and own. As has been said if only they could talk what tales they could tell! However one of their best things is not their steel, and I would love to have one of the old rifles made from modern steel alloys! If it were new, however,I have no doubt the classic lovers whould still downgrade it as inferior!" Friend, to this I simply say: www.ttproctor.com - he's like a P. Webley back to life! ________________________________________________________________________________ To Cane Rat, You're right in that if a guy wants NEW, he should buy NEW! If a guy wants a rifle that has been used on TIGER or what ever "back in the day", then that's what he should buy, as I did. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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honestly with the materials we have today, it is actually possible to make 577 ne in the 6-7 pounds range but who would shoot them (at least more than once  ).cheers peter | |||
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 DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I cannot answer on double rifles as I do not have one. On Winchester Model 70's, the new ones from South Carolina are, to me, far better made than the pre-64 version. Machining is better, steel is better, barrels are better, trigger is better. Out of the box accuracy is excellent, hence I see it as "better". The traditional "the rifleman's rifle" fans should be proud of the new version and embrace a step forward. If you like the older ones, shoot them and enjoy, but the new ones are excellent. Sorry to hijack. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Requesting The FACTS From A Metallurgist
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