+1 on that Will. I had other needs at the time but I will always miss that one. For me, it was the ideal double rifle. If I buy/build another I wouldn't change a thing.

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
Just a question for discussion...

All of you guys who have humped miles upon miles with your rifles in the oppressing heat of Africa, why not use a sling?

I know a sling is not "Africa", but why not use one?

Paul,

Its total weight, not how its carried.

I use a sling, most of the time anyway, on my 375H&H in Africa.

On a long tracking job, you end up carrying your rifle in most every manner. To me the most comfortable and easiest is the so called "African Carry" with the rifle over the shoulder. But even then I change up.

When you run into a fellow with some elephant experience, I'm betting the list of crap he leaves the truck with is damn short compared to the rest of hunters.

JPK

Quote from JPK,

quote:

When you run into a fellow with some elephant experience, I'm betting the list of crap he leaves the truck with is damn short compared to the rest of hunters.

Amen to that!

465H&H

I am awfully glad I did not have the wit and wisdom of this forum back in the day. I packed an eleven pound M-203 and a vest with 48 rounds of grenade launcher rounds in it along with my regular pack that weighed about 40lbs an average of 20 kilometers for days upon end in I Corps and points north. Pretty rough up and down country to boot. For a couple years I hunted big game here with an eleven pound Hawken rifle.

JMHO; but if you can't do 10 miles a day for a couple weeks in a row packing 30lbs of gear, then you need to stay home and work out until you can. Sling the rifle across your chest and let your shoulder bear the load evenly. It's why backpacks have two straps, one on each side. My doctor has me walking six miles a day on a track: I'm averaging 18 minutes per mile for the whole six. Surely, you guys aren't THAT soft...?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Three things you write make me bet that you haven't done any elephant hunting.

quote:

back in the day.

For a couple years I hunted big game here with an eleven pound Hawken rifle.

I'm averaging 18 minutes per mile for the whole six.

1.) Yea, maybe twenty-five years ago I wouldn't think rifle weight was all that much of an issue, but I wasn't elephant hunting then either. I didn't think three a day football practice, two in full kit one in shoulder pads, helmet and shorts, for a Division IA football team was all that tough then either; it would kill me now. It would kill me now even if I was as fit as I was then, recovery just takes longer now. I played rugby well into my thirties and the time to recover grew and grew and was finally the end of my career. Monday morning obligations, which met then allow me to elephant hunt now, overode three or four Saturday and Sunday rugby matches and Tuesday and Thursday practices. And I think I would have been smart enough even then to want to shed the unnessecary rifle weight and extra gear anyway.

2.) Here isn't there. I voluntarily carry much more gear here, and it isn't often over 100* when I hunt either.

3.) A track is flat and the footing is perfect. You are averaging 3.3mph, which isn't bad, but try it over uneven footing and on terrain that varries from flat to mountainous, similar to the lower portions of the Apalacians, sometimes on game trails but sometime cutting your own trail. And try it on XX old ankles and knees, which have seen many a better day. Grap an XXlb rifle, throw in your ammo and whatever else you wish to carry, don't forget your boots, needed for those worn and beat ankles, and turn up the heat to run from sometimes balmy but sometimes cool, even chilly, in the morning to up to and occasionally over 115* in the midday. Averaging 3mph or more then is very good going. One PH I hunt with prefers this pace; I find it tough, but managable. The PH was 26 when I last hunted with him in '06, making me more than old enough to be his father. He was near as beat as me when we returned to camp each evening, and walks for a living. Another PH prefers about a 2.5mph pace, easier to manage and enough difference to better enjoy your surroundings, longer days walking though. This PH was 34 when I last hunted with him, also in '06, older and wiser perhaps? But he too was beat when we returned to camp in the evening.

JPK

quote:

You are absolutely right. I am tired of the couch potatoes wining about it’s to heavy, get in better shape do some weight training and it will be lighter.

This is such a bull s--t cannard. I don't care how fit you are a heavier rifle is heavier and no amount of training will ever change that. A heavier rifle will wear you out faster, both through a day and over a long hunt as well. Spend a good six or more hours on tracks a day and a friggin marathon runner is going to be looking for every opprtunity to shed weight. Spend a month on tracks six hours a day, seven days a week and you will spit out your chewing gum before you strike out on tracks.

No this is not such a bull s--t canard.
________________________________________________________________________
I'm not a very light weight rifle fan, but what some of you all view as acceptable rifle weight is just a joke and to me indicative of poor attention to detail from the builder or the fellow who ordered a rifle. Making a rifle safe and light and yet well balance and responsive is an art, making it heavy and well balanced is a short cut.
________________________________________________________________________
Well I will defer to some one who might have a good idea on how to build a Double.
Holland & Holland list the following weight guide
.300 H&H 8lb 10oz
.375 H&H 9lb 6oz
.500/465 H&H 10lb 2oz
They also list the following built guns for sale
.470 10lb 11oz
.375 Flanged 10lb 2oz
.300 11lb
.300 9lb 14 oz
.577 15 lb
________________________________________________________________________

I'm not a coolaid drinker in the "gravity is forever but recoil last but for a moment" crowd but there is some merit to the postulate. Not a lick of merit to the over weight rifle fan club. Best rifles on the lighter side of history, but many of you all are just off the scale so to speak.

Proper hunting weight rifle = enough to shoot half a dozen times in succession easy and not be afraid of the rifle.

Some guys want to shoot their doubles all day, why? It isn't supposed to be a range queen. Half a dozen a couple times early and then late in a session is plenty. Need more practice? Have more frequent sessions.

The reality is when the recoil is to bad they will never shoot enough to get proficient.

For me:

~8.5-9lbs for a 375H&H or Flanged Magnum double, bare no scope.
~9-9.75lbs for a 450/400
~10-10.25lbs for a 450 to 470

I'd go 10.75-11 for a 500 but I haven't shot too many different rifles in 500.
________________________________________________________________________
The .500 is a defiant step up in recoil, Butch Searcey makes one at 11-11.5 lb .500 but if you need a light one try a Heym they list at 9.9 lb or a Merkel at 10.14 lb. Interesting side note Heym list the same weight for all there big bores including the .577 and .600
I bet they weigh more because no sane person would pull the trigger on a 10 lb .600.
Bill

Yes the physical traing cannard is Bull S--t.

It is entirely true that before you go elephant hunting, or even buff hunting, any hunting where your trip, and so your $'s and time, is going to be in jeopardy because of a lack of fitness, you should get off the couch, start walking, weight train and get fit, or at a minimum, fitter.

It remains true that no matter how fit you are, a lighter rifle will mean you are less tired and further from your limit as the day wears on and the tracks go on. It also means that you will be fresher each morning and less worn over a long trip where you are humping day in and day out.

Recoil is mostly a mental issue to overcome, and it is something that can readilly be overcome. Best done with relatively frequent shooting sessions with relatively fewer round, there is just no reason to shoot a lot of rounds, especially hevey rounds, in a session as a matter of course.

Shooting practice doesn't need to be done entirely or even mostly with the big double, just with a rifle with similar sights. This is the opportunity to open your session with your double, switch to a light recoiling rifle and then close your session with your double rifle. I shoot mostly a 22lr with similar enough open sights. After about 50 rounds, my concentration wanders, time to finish off with the double and call it a session.

Learn to handle a double rifle with a SxS shotgun with two triggers. You will learn more double rifle handling, triggers, reloading from a day of skeet than a day at the range since you can't shoot a couple hundred rounds at the rifle range but it is easy to do at the skeet range.

The weights you cite are most likely for bespoke rifles, hard to tell now if the rifle weight was determined by the maker or the fellow fortunate enough to order the H&H. As for the guide, is it what they find the ideal weight for hunting or the easy weight to make or the ideal weight to shoot at the range? The variance of the range doesn't make much sense either. There are some piggers in the list and some a bit too heavy and one that make great sense.

.300 H&H 8lb 10oz Pigger, more than a pound too heavy
.375 H&H 9lb 6oz Near pigger, too heavy by 1/2 to 3/4lbs
.500/465 H&H 10lb 2oz Just about perfect
They also list the following built guns for sale
.470 10lb 11oz A bit too heavy, but not a pigger.
.375 Flanged 10lb 2oz A pigger, too heavy by over a pound
.300 11lb A pigger beyond belief, too heavy by three + pounds
.300 9lb 14 oz Still a pigger about 2 lbs too heavy
.577 15 lb I have no experience shooting a 577, but if your gunbearer is carrying this 577 while you are carrying the 500/465 listed above, who cares?

You can't, with a straight face, tell me that a 500/465 ought to weigh what a 375 Flanged weighs, or that a 300 should weigh 14 ounces more than a 500/465 and 5 ounces more than a 470. or that another 300 should weigh eight ounces more than a 375H&H the same less than a 500/465. (I wonder if the weights of some of the light calibres are with scope?)

Your table of weights doesn't really say much other than H&H built a great 500/465 for some fortunate DG hunter. Maybe he knew what elephant hunting was all about and ordered that weight, eh?

JPK

Can't disagree.

Here are some weights of some modified rifles I have or had:

375 Mod. 70: 7.4 lbs.
416 Rem Mod. 70: 7.7 lbs.
416 Taylor CZ 550: 7.5 and 7.8 lbs.

Twenty years ago when I was in a lot better shape than now I carried an off-the-shelf Mod. 70 in 375 H&H with a scope that must have weighed close to or even more than 11 lbs., as the factory rifle pushes 9.5 lbs.

At the end of the hunt I was ready to throw that club off a bridge.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JPK:
Yes the physical traing cannard is Bull S--t.

It is entirely true that before you go elephant hunting, or even buff hunting, any hunting where your trip, and so your $'s and time, is going to be in jeopardy because of a lack of fitness, you should get off the couch, start walking, weight train and get fit, or at a minimum, fitter.

Well first you tell me training is BS then turnaround and tell me how important it is.
________________________________________________________________________

It remains true that no matter how fit you are, a lighter rifle will mean you are less tired and further from your limit as the day wears on and the tracks go on. It also means that you will be fresher each morning and less worn over a long trip where you are humping day in and day out.

Don’t blame the weight of the rifle on your lack of conditioning. I have already posted that the reason the .500NE and the .600 NE were not widely accepted was they were heavy to carry all day.
________________________________________________________________________

Recoil is mostly a mental issue to overcome, and it is something that can readilly be overcome. Best done with relatively frequent shooting sessions with relatively fewer round, there is just no reason to shoot a lot of rounds, especially hevey rounds, in a session as a matter of course.

Shooting practice doesn't need to be done entirely or even mostly with the big double, just with a rifle with similar sights. This is the opportunity to open your session with your double, switch to a light recoiling rifle and then close your session with your double rifle. I shoot mostly a 22lr with similar enough open sights. After about 50 rounds, my concentration wanders, time to finish off with the double and call it a session.

Yes recoil is mostly a mental issue but not entirely. Different people have different levels of recoil they can manage and tolerate.
While I agree with your training strategy, when your concentration wanders stop shooting and rest or come back at a latter time. The reason is if you are not concentrating on each shot you are just burning powder and not getting any benefit from your practice.
________________________________________________________________________


Learn to handle a double rifle with a SxS shotgun with two triggers. You will learn more double rifle handling, triggers, reloading from a day of skeet than a day at the range since you can't shoot a couple hundred rounds at the rifle range but it is easy to do at the skeet range.

While this is a good way to get use to shooting a 2 trigger gun and the basics of reloading it has no Bering on this thread.
________________________________________________________________________

The weights you cite are most likely for bespoke rifles, hard to tell now if the rifle weight was determined by the maker or the fellow fortunate enough to order the H&H. As for the guide, is it what they find the ideal weight for hunting or the easy weight to make or the ideal weight to shoot at the range? The variance of the range doesn't make much sense either. There are some piggers in the list and some a bit too heavy and one that make great sense.

.300 H&H 8lb 10oz Pigger, more than a pound too heavy
.375 H&H 9lb 6oz Near pigger, too heavy by 1/2 to 3/4lbs
.500/465 H&H 10lb 2oz Just about perfect
They also list the following built guns for sale
.470 10lb 11oz A bit too heavy, but not a pigger.
.375 Flanged 10lb 2oz A pigger, too heavy by over a pound
.300 11lb A pigger beyond belief, too heavy by three + pounds
.300 9lb 14 oz Still a pigger about 2 lbs too heavy
.577 15 lb I have no experience shooting a 577, but if your gunbearer is carrying this 577 while you are carrying the 500/465 listed above, who cares?

You can't, with a straight face, tell me that a 500/465 ought to weigh what a 375 Flanged weighs, or that a 300 should weigh 14 ounces more than a 500/465 and 5 ounces more than a 470. or that another 300 should weigh eight ounces more than a 375H&H the same less than a 500/465. (I wonder if the weights of some of the light calibres are with scope?)

Your table of weights doesn't really say much other than H&H built a great 500/465 for some fortunate DG hunter. Maybe he knew what elephant hunting was all about and ordered that weight, eh?
________________________________________________________________________

Well if you go back and read carefully you will see that the first 3 are from H&H table listing expected weight for caliber. The other 5 are from their already built list not one is a bespoke gun.
I am not trying to tell you anything. I am pointing out what is. These are listed weights from one of the best makers. Please tell me you would turn down the gift of one of these “pigger’sâ€. You can have a Heym or Merkel at 10 lb with mercury reducers that through off the balance and don’t handle as well as the heaviest “piggerâ€.
I think I will stand on my original recommendation to BwanaBob that the searcey was the better weight in a .500 NE at 11to 11lb 6oz.
Bill

Bill Cooley,

You post, "Well first you tell me training is BS then turnaround and tell me how important it is."

No, do your self a favor and go read what was written by me and what I was responding to. Since you seem to have trouble doing this here it is:

I Responded to this previous post:
"You are absolutely right. I am tired of the couch potatoes wining about it’s to heavy, get in better shape do some weight training and it will be lighter."

Here is part of what I posted in response:
"This is such a bull s--t cannard. I don't care how fit you are a heavier rifle is heavier and no amount of training will ever change that. A heavier rifle will wear you out faster, both through a day and over a long hunt as well. Spend a good six or more hours on tracks a day and a friggin marathon runner is going to be looking for every opprtunity to shed weight. Spend a month on tracks six hours a day, seven days a week and you will spit out your chewing gum before you strike out on tracks."

No mention that training wasn't important, only that a rifle isn't going to change weight no matter how fit the hunter and that if the hunter is elephant hunting and doing a lot of walking he'll be be looking to carry only the weight he must.

You post, "Don’t blame the weight of the rifle on your lack of conditioning. I have already posted that the reason the .500NE and the .600 NE were not widely accepted was they were heavy to carry all day."

I've never blamed rifle weight on a lack of conditioning, only pointed out that rifle weight, and total weight of whats carried is important and that it should be kept within reason on the rifle weight. My definition of within reason, of course. If you are walking a lot less weight will enable the fitest of hunters to walk longer each day, be fresher each morning and keep the pace weeks at a time. This is but common sense.

You post, "Yes recoil is mostly a mental issue but not entirely. Different people have different levels of recoil they can manage and tolerate.
While I agree with your training strategy, when your concentration wanders stop shooting and rest or come back at a latter time. The reason is if you are not concentrating on each shot you are just burning powder and not getting any benefit from your practice."

Yes, different people have different tolerances. Mostly because they fail to make the effort to become recoil tollerant. I believe that most men can become accustomed to 450NE class recoil. I base this belief on several facts, amoungst which are, 1.) where only shotguns are permitted for deer hunting, deer are regularly hunted by hundreds of hunters each armed with a weapon that makes a 450 class rifle feel tame in comparison; 2.) here in MD many geese are killed with shotguns generating felt recoil that is every bit as unpleasant as that generated by a 450 class rifle. No one looks forward to sighting in their slug guns and it pretty rare to shoot static targets with heavy magnum loads from relatively light shotguns, no one much bitches about recoil because they are doing what needs to be done and then concentrating on their live targets. No one is trying to make a range queen out of a 12ga 3" slug gun or a 10 or 12gs shooting max loads either.

If, even after real effort to accustom himself to recoil, a fellow just can't take the recoil of a big bore rifle in the weight range that I specified in my original post, "~10-10.25lbs for a 450 to 470", he ought to pick a relatively light medium bore rifle, like a 9lb 450/400 or an 8 3/4lbs 375. Rifles of these cartridges, that fit even only reasonably well won't recoil as much as a prper weight big bore.


You post, "While this is a good way to get use to shooting a 2 trigger gun and the basics of reloading it has no Bering on this thread."

My comment has all to do with both your earlier post and the posts I was first responding too. All sorts of F/U's come about in the field as a result of hunters unfamiliar with their rifles, especially double rifles. For example, Buzz Charlton told me in October 2006 that one in two double rifle shooters he has hunted with have become confused with their rifle's double triggers. Slow reloading is endemic as well. You posted along these line previously when you mentioned that a fellow has to shoot his double rifle enough to be a good shot with it and so extra weight was preferable. As I posted, the hunter doesn't have to shoot a lot in any session to become good with his rifle, or even shoot only his rifle. Likewise, to become intamately familiar with his rifle, he can spend a lot of time shooting a SxS two trigger shotgun to get the foundational basis for that intamte familiarity.

You post, "Well if you go back and read carefully you will see that the first 3 are from H&H table listing expected weight for caliber. The other 5 are from their already built list not one is a bespoke gun."

I understood that the first three were from their "suggested weights." I misunderstood the other five and thought by "already built" you pulled them from their list of second hand offerings.

Reviewing New York's entire stock and second hand stock in London, we add the following examples:

London:
New:
9.3x74R 9lbs 8oz
Second hand:
"300" 9lbs
"375" 9lbs 14oz This gun is older and has had a stock extension added. I'm guessing it is a Flanged

New York:
New:
500/465 10lbs
470 9lbs 11oz
375Fl 9lbs 9oz
Second hand:
"375" 9lb 4oz This rifle shows no photo but is noted as built, or at least barrels, in 2000.

So, between you previous list and these additions, we have a 9lb 11oz 470, a 10lb 500/465, another at 10lbs 2oz. All new. Apparently H&H can still make a very fine big bore double barrel elephant rifle that weighs what it should, just a John Taylor said they did. Perfect or near perfect weight for cartridge/power/recoil, and right at the weight I said they should weigh in my original post, or a bit lighter. Here's my quote, "~10-10.25lbs for a 450 to 470".

And then we have one 470 a half pound overweight and a plethora of overweight medium bores and a couple of example of light calibre doubles that might have been weighed with their scopes attached, at least one can hope so.

You post, "I am not trying to tell you anything. I am pointing out what is. These are listed weights from one of the best makers. Please tell me you would turn down the gift of one of these “pigger’sâ€. You can have a Heym or Merkel at 10 lb with mercury reducers that through off the balance and don’t handle as well as the heaviest “piggerâ€."

"What is" is H&H still builds elephant rifles right at, or lighter than, the weights I previuosly opined were appropriate and has three ready to go for an educated and fortunate experienced elephant hunter unwilling to hump an overweight rifle.

I can have a fantastic H&H sidelock 9lb 11oz 470, 10lb 500/465 or 10lb 2oz 500/465. No reason to turn out one of these.

But the other overweight rifles, with the exception of the 10lb 11oz 470, would be traded quicker than lightening for one of the 500/465's or either 470. Or sold to fund a suitable replacement that weighed what it should.

I'm not going to denigrate the Hyem or the Merkel, they are fine rifles for what they cost, will do all they need to do and are leagues better for elephant hunting than any bolt rifle, imo. But they aren't my choice of rifles. I own and hunt with a far better grade of rifle, but can't do the H&H's. So I "settle" for a Marcel Thys sidelock in 458wm at 10lbs 7oz (about a quarter to half a pound too heavy) and an A&S sidelock in 375H&H at 8lbs 10oz.

You post, "I think I will stand on my original recommendation to BwanaBob that the searcey was the better weight in a .500 NE at 11to 11lb 6oz."

I originally posted, "I'd go 10.75-11 for a 500 but I haven't shot too many different rifles in 500." 10oz difference between my low and your high. Not a hell of a lot, but I'm confident that after a couple of weeks of tracking elephant, the fellow with the 11lb 6oz rifle is going to be wishing his rifle weighed about a half pound or more less.

You've spent a lot of time and "ink" bringing up H&H to prove my point, and more picking an arguement over what I didn't actually say.

JPK

From another forum:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I recall the listing of your rifle also Spring. Almost made a pass but ended up with my Marcel Thys sidelock. You surely bought a nice rifle.

JPK


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You know you woulden't like this rifle it is a heavey pigger.470 N.E. Weight 11 1/4 lbs.
Sorrey I just coulden't resist.
Bill


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"You are correct, that is why I bought my Thys, which while a quarter pound overweight, at 10 1/2lbs, was more attractive to me than the A&S/Beretta 470 at 11 1/4lbs.

On the other hand, I did buy an A&S sidelock 375H&H which weighs a more proper for cartidge, to me, 8lbs 10oz.

If only I could afford one of the three new H&H rifles listed by H&H, the 9lb 10oz 470, or the 10lb 465H&H or even the 10lb 2oz 465H&H. Either would be the ultimate rifle at the ultimate weight.

Oh, and for a similar price I passed on a left handed H&H 375Flanged because it weighed 10lbs 2oz. (The A&S was less purchase price but more total cost once I paid to have it converted to left hand use.)

JPK"


Bill, my consistency of belief and practice bother you. Too bad.

JPK

For what it's worth, my Searcy 500 comes in at 11.2 lbs. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, so I really can't comment on weight vs recoil.

500 Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by mbundy:
For what it's worth, my Searcy 500 comes in at 11.2 lbs. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, so I really can't comment on weight vs recoil.

500 Nitro

I hope you enjoy your new rifle. Weight/recoil is but one compromise that must be made.

Great looking rifle, btw!

JPK

mbundy:

That is a nice looking rifle. I have been told by people a lot more knowledgable than I that the under lever (such as your gun) is the fastest for reloading. Personally, I don't like the looks of underleavers, but after playing with one for a day, I think the experts are right.

However, if you practise enough, anything can be achieved to a level of acceptability for your needs.

My old shooting coach always said, "slow is fast" when training. Nothing is further from the truth.

Nice looking rig you got there.

JPK,
I have gone back and read a number of your post on outher subjects and threads. Lets just recap on your statment.
“You've spent a lot of time and "ink" bringing up H&H to prove my point, and more picking an arguement over what I didn't actually say.â€
What happened is you jumped in calling a valid statement a BS canard. Perhaps you just wanted to reaffirm your position that you were the onley one who knew what a rifle should weigh. I brought up H&H to show what a top maker thought was the proper weight for caliber not just what I thought. When a person choses to go hunting with a rifle in a given caliber. He should pick one of adequate weight he can learn to shoot and be profichant with. I think you said: “Proper hunting weight rifle = enough to shoot half a dozen times in succession easy and not be afraid of the rifle.â€
Well if the rifle is to light he won’t shoot it because of the recoil. You can preach about becoming acoustum to the recoil but the reality is if it hurts him to shoot it he will not practice enough to become acoustem to the recoil.

I think the fact you had to drag this post back to this forum to reply is verey telling to all.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by mbundy:
For what it's worth, my Searcy 500 comes in at 11.2 lbs. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, so I really can't comment on weight vs recoil.

500 Nitro

I hope you enjoy your new rifle. Hope you post some targets when you get a chance to shoot it. Butch has a rep for building accurat rifles.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
JPK,
I have gone back and read a number of your post on outher subjects and threads. Lets just recap on your statment.
“You've spent a lot of time and "ink" bringing up H&H to prove my point, and more picking an arguement over what I didn't actually say.â€
What happened is you jumped in calling a valid statement a BS canard. Perhaps you just wanted to reaffirm your position that you were the onley one who knew what a rifle should weigh. I brought up H&H to show what a top maker thought was the proper weight for caliber not just what I thought. When a person choses to go hunting with a rifle in a given caliber. He should pick one of adequate weight he can learn to shoot and be profichant with. I think you said: “Proper hunting weight rifle = enough to shoot half a dozen times in succession easy and not be afraid of the rifle.â€
Well if the rifle is to light he won’t shoot it because of the recoil. You can preach about becoming acoustum to the recoil but the reality is if it hurts him to shoot it he will not practice enough to become acoustem to the recoil.

I think the fact you had to drag this post back to this forum to reply is verey telling to all.
Bill

Bill,

You contested my argument reagrding rifle weights. You did so over several post. I called the fitness crap a cannard becuase it is; no matter how fit a hunter a rifles weighs the same - where's the error? I said that that no matter how fit a hunter a lighter rifle will result in being able to go longer and be fresher throughout the day and throughout the hunt, where's the error in this? But you still you gave a bunch of bull about me not recognizing fitness as an element of a successful hunt.

And then you brought up H&H in an effort to show that a premier maker builds range queen rifles instead of rifles for the elephant hunter.

I only followed your lead, and guess what, it only completely supported my view on elephant rifle weights. But then I knew it would and even John Taylor writes about the same damned subject, ie light H&H weights compared to other makers and prefferably light rifles for elephant hunting. Every H&H big bore rifle, but two weighs what I suggest it ought to OR LESS, and one of those is a mere 3oz too heavy. Beyond that, H&H list the suggested weight of their 465H&H at a perfect 10lbs 2oz. Thanks again for bringing up H&H to prove my point!

You ought to do some research before spouting off, it would help if first you read the relevant posts, and then second if you get off the couch and do some hunting. If you haven't, try an elephant hunt and maybe you'll understand why unnessecarily heavy rifles are a handicap. elephant hunting will likely have you slide the intersection of rifle weight, recoil, power toward power and more recoil, less weight.

I'll note that there is contradiction in the H&H suggested weights. Whether that is because its easy for them to build rifles to the weights noted, ie hard to build a light medium bore, I have no idea. But again, what is relevent is that their premier elephant rifle and cartridge combination is suggested to weigh a near perfect 10lbs 2oz. Sounds like they listen to their elephant hunting customers, eh?

JPK

Bill,
Gourgeous rifle... I would hve guessed a little heavier. Butch makes great rifles!