Any 500 owners care to share their thoughts on the weight of the rifle vs. the felt recoil ?
I see the Heym 500 weighs less than 10 lbs while a Searcy for example wighs 11-11 1/2 lbs. I'm thinking that the Heym must bite a bit !

My 470 is 9lbs 12oz, my 577 was 13lbs 8oz. My 470 might be a bit light, but my 577 was a little to heavy. So to split the difference I would say 11.5 on the heavy side, and 10.5 on the light side. 11 lbs is about prefect

Just sold two 500's, both weighed 11 1/4lb

Kebco, Punish me.......what were the makes and cost if you don't mind me asking...I'm starting to shop for a 500 and trying to line up my ducks. Thanks

Bwana Bob,
Welcome to the forum. You will definitely get a variety of responses as to what a .500 NE should weigh. Yes the Heym will get your attention at 10 lbs. I wouldn’t want one under 11-12 lbs with at least one mercury reducer.
I am going to stir the pot a little because I think this craze of making big bore doubles lighter and lighter is well, how can I sugar coat this, well several words come to mind but I am going to be nice.
In regards to what 505ED posted. “My 577 was a little to heavy at 13lbs 8oz†To heavy for what? That is a fairly light .577 When you get much lighter the recoil becomes a factor in you can’t recover fast enough to be effective with your second shot. I am not picking on 505ED but I couldn’t resist using what he posted. Yes the 40 cal and under can be 9-10 pounds but .470 should be in the 11-11.5 pound range. When you move up to .500 it is another step up in recoil and with the .577 14 pounds is the proper range .600 15-16 pounds is not to light.
Champlin has a good example on there web site. This rifle started as a .577 and weighed 14 lb 2 oz which is the correct weight for a .577 but will punish you in .600.
http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx?tabid=30&mid=3...StyleID=3&GunID=1091
I am a firm believer that the reason many don’t shoot there big bores enough to be really as good as they should be is they concisely or un consciously shy away from the recoil.
Bill

Bill,

No picking taken, I see where you are coming from. You ask to heavy for what? Well walk 8-10 miles a day with almost 14lbs slung over one arm. Its on the verge of too much gun. If you want to hand off a gun to a tracker then more power to you.

Dont know how much exp you have with a 577. I have had a bit. My last 577 did not balance as good as I wanted so I sold it, it was also on the heavy side. I think 12 to 12.5lbs is a managable hunting weight for a 577. Just my OP, you know what they say about that

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
You ask to heavy for what? Well walk 8-10 miles a day with almost 14lbs slung over one arm. Its on the verge of too much gun.

Sure, that's always been the issue with the .577. Heavy enough to be shootable, they're too heavy for most to carry all day. I've shot them at 13.5, and wouldn't want one any lighter.

Some differ, but I agree with Bill. Lots of newer .470s and .500s out there right at 10 lbs. and I've watched a lot of shooters with them. Quite a few can't handle them - and look how many end up with a mercury reducer in them because of it.

Where I'll disagree with Bill a little is the mercury reducer, because I dislike what they do to weight distribution and handling, which is a big part of what a double rifle is all about. If it needs a mercury reducer, to me, that means it was built too light to begin with.

I think the traditional weight of the .500s, 11.5 to 12 lbs. or so, is sensible.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Walking and shooting...polar opposites. What's good for one sucks for the opposite. I have a 11.25# 470....recoil is stiff, but very tolerable. I also have a WR 425 bolt that weighs in at 9#.....410's at 2300+ will flat get your attention....but it's nice to walk with. I go with 11# as a good balance for 470 class...then go up or down from there as caliber goes up or down. Machismo be damned....a 12.5# 577 would be REAL difficult to get off 2 CORRECTLY AIMED shots for the average big bore shooter.

There $.02 worth.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Felt recoil for me has more to do with the drop of the stock, tightness of bore and the wieght of the rifle and balance point and stance. All of the the modern doubles are different as I have owned 5 .500s and currently shoot a .500 and a .470. The Heym had the hardest with the Merkel at second with the Kriegs being he straitest gun having the "smoothest" recoil.

Wieght is a key factor but if you have a tight bore heym shooting(more drop on the stock less muzzle rise) at 2300 fps and a Krieg (less drop on the stock more muzzle rise) at 2050 fps. The Heym is going to punch you more.

Mercury recoil reducers help but are a pint of water on a long march.

FWIW------but what do I know im just a shooter.

My Son[577Nitro Express] and I bought a Merkel 500NE as our first DR. It was a handful to shoot regarding recoil! It was identicle to the 470 except the bore was larger. this made it lighter than the 470 around 9.5lbs or less. The recoil was like a sharp jab, and after 6 to 8 rounds was heading back to the case. My Searcy 577 weighs 13.5lbs, and the recoil is much more of a shove as far as recoil. The 577 can shove me around all day, but a light 500NE, you can keep it!

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
Machismo be damned....a 12.5# 577 would be REAL difficult to get off 2 CORRECTLY AIMED shots for the average big bore shooter.

It certainly would be for me.

quote:

Originally posted by .500Pro:

The Heym had the hardest with Merkel at second with the Kriegs being the straitest gun having the "smoothest" recoil."

The K-gun was the worst for me because of the straight stock and having to scrunch for the sights. Just goes to show that correct fit is what really matters, not drop. As long as the drop is correct for the shooter's fit, drop has nothing to do with felt recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc52:
The .577 can shove me around all day, but a light 500NE, you can keep it!

Yeah, Doc's .577 shoves me around a lot, but has never hurt me. Lot's of recoil to be sure, but - how to describe? - heavy shove with lots of moving around, but no hard smack. Given decent fit and comb shape, I find 10.75 lb. .470s pleasant to shoot, but the 9.5 lb. ones I find intensely unpleasant. The .500 is a noticeable step up in recoil from the .470.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Had a hammer .470 with what turned out to be chambers so pitted they could not be polished out and the rifle left in proof. After some searching (!) had it bored out to .500 Nitro, reproofed and regulated. The rifle was 11 lbs.

My usual big bore is a 500/450 that weights 10 lbs 10 oz and is a sweetheart offhand. The hammer .470 was not bad at all, but having to wait 5 seconds for the brass to cool so I could extract it seemed unlikely in dangerous game hunting. But, as a .500 it was just over the edge of what I can handle. So, 11-1/4 lbs seems right on, assuming the rifle fits.

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 505ED:
You ask to heavy for what? Well walk 8-10 miles a day with almost 14lbs slung over one arm. Its on the verge of too much gun.

Sure, that's always been the issue with the .577. Heavy enough to be shootable, they're too heavy for most to carry all day. I've shot them at 13.5, and wouldn't want one any lighter.

Some differ, but I agree with Bill. Lots of newer .470s and .500s out there right at 10 lbs. and I've watched a lot of shooters with them. Quite a few can't handle them - and look how many end up with a mercury reducer in them because of it.

Where I'll disagree with Bill a little is the mercury reducer, because I dislike what they do to weight distribution and handling, which is a big part of what a double rifle is all about. If it needs a mercury reducer, to me, that means it was built too light to begin with.

I think the traditional weight of the .500s, 11.5 to 12 lbs. or so, is sensible.
-----------------------------------------------
400 Nitro Express,
Just to clarify what I meant. The mercury reducer is not what I prefer but the reality of what is happening and direct from the factory. The unfortunate truth is Byers are demanding light for caliber rifles and the manufactures are building them. Then trying to make them shoot able with a mercury reducer or 2.
I think this is why the .470NE has become “the standard†The reason being it is enough gun to kill everything and a reputable stopper yet light enough to carry on those long days.
I think the reason the .577 and 600 are so rare is they were to heavy to carry all day. The people who had them PH’s used them for back up when things got bad and they had to follow up something nasty in heavy cover.
Bwana Bob,
Just for my curiosity why do you feel the need for a .500NE or is this just I want one (I can understand that). I do recommend not getting one under 11.5-12 lbs. A .470 will let you shave a pound and still be ok. I do sujest you by new and have it fitted as this will help with recoil.
Bill

Bill, you were right...the 500 is just what I want. Having had the good fortune of owning ( then not too intelligently) selling a H&H 465/ early Searcy 500/Coggsie 475/Heym 470, thru the years, I find myself looking hard at a Searcy Classic in 500 (again). The benefit being it's weight over the Heym, for example and the fact that I don't have to pony up the bulk of the money for 14 months.
Just had a concern that if the Heym 500 was in the running, it might be a bit light.....I think that is the consensus and it's probably valid.

Hey Bob, Whaddya do with the Merkel?

quote:

Originally posted by Aussie Dave:
Hey Bob, Whaddya do with the Merkel?

I don't think this is Aus BwannaBob.

Pondoro said 10.5 pounds. Sure, that's good for walking.

Shooting at an elephant it's probably fine too due to

adreneline. Practice shooting will be fun on the first

round. After that, you'll want to shoot a third lighter

bullets and a third less powder, if you can make that work.

handling recoil, in a well fit gun (double or not) is a matter of training... and ya'll know i've knocked my gnoggin around!!

9# is too light, 10.5 is too heavy, if you are willing to train for it.

if you want to just pick it up and shoot 10 rounds, then 10.5 or 11 is fine . its a friggin CLUB at 11, to me, and there's no reason for a 500 to be that heavy

the merkel plain is painful in 500 to me, but its short short...

my 550 express, 10.5 and the power as a 577, is far easier to shoot than a 14# 577 .. faster recoil, mebbe, but it fits me

9to 9.5 is about perfect, for someone willing to learn and train to shoot it... if you aren't willing or wanting, go 10.5

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
its a friggin CLUB at 11, to me, and there's no reason for a 500 to be that heavy

Given a well made gun, that's preposterous. You don't have much experience with doubles, so I can sorta understand why you might assume that to be the case though.

quote:

the merkel plain is painful in 500 to me,

...

It is for most people, including me, because it's too light for the cartridge, and what weight it has is poorly distributed.

quote:

my 550 express, 10.5 and the power as a 577, is far easier to shoot than a 14# 577 .. faster recoil, mebbe, but it fits me

Beyond it being a bolt rifle cartridge, I don't even know what a .550 is. However, if it has as much power as a .577 3" Nitro Express, then your statement is questionable. You said that the .577 double was reasonably close to a good fit, but if it bothered you that much, then it didn't fit, nor was it even close...either that or it had a boat paddle for a stock.

quote:

9to 9.5 is about perfect, for someone willing to learn and train to shoot it... if you aren't willing or wanting, go 10.5

You can keep repeating that nobody here but you knows how to shoot a big bore rifle all you want, but that won't make the statement, or the conclusions that you base on it, any less absurd.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Amen 400 Nitro Express

I didn't bother to read all responses. this may have been covered already.

I had a Heym 500NE. It does in fact kick a lot. The first time i shot it, i dislocated my middle finger on my trigger hand. I was scared shitless of the gun after this.

It was probably my fault for not holding it tightly.

You are welcome to bring a 10# 450 NE, with about 14.5# lop, and I'll bring a 10# 458 ar, with about the same lop, and you and anyone else can see.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

You can keep repeating that nobody here but you knows how to shoot a big bore rifle all you want, but that won't make the statement, or the conclusions that you base on it, any less absurd.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

mark
you're right.. no, wait, *I* never said that... now did i?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
handling recoil, in a well fit gun (double or not) is a matter of training... and ya'll know i've knocked my gnoggin around!!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I didn't bother to read all responses. this may have been covered already.

I had a Heym 500NE. It does in fact kick a lot. The first time i shot it, i dislocated my middle finger on my trigger hand. I was scared shitless of the gun after this.

It was probably my fault for not holding it tightly.

Agreed ... when I built my first double rifle I had the stock geometery wrong on the grip.. the second stock fixed that, as well as a recoil pad.. But, I have also had a turnbolt hit me with the bolt handle.. no less "fun"

FWIW,
My Sons 470NE Francotte at 11 lbs is a dream to shoot and hunt with. The fit, is dead on, The balance, is dead on. The recoil, hardly noticeable. As 400 Nitro Express expressed earlier, if the rifle fits you, and has the correct weight[balanced ie. built into the design, not added later] for caliber, What recoil?
Power to weight ratio. X amount of ft lbs of recoil energy, what weight is NEEDED to make recoil acceptable[for the average shooter] for that caliber. Now if you want to talk carrying a heavy rifle, if you have a hunt in a year and you want that 14.5 577NE to hunt with, step away from the buffet table, put down the remote and get fit, make your dream happen.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
You are welcome to bring a 10# 450 NE, with about 14.5# lop, and I'll bring a 10# 458 ar, with about the same lop, and you and anyone else can see.

I don't understand. If the proper weight for a .550 Express (more power than a .577) is 10.5 lbs., and the proper weight for a .585 Nyati that produces 280 fps more velocity than a .577 NE with the same bullet is 11 lbs, why should a 458 ar (whatever that is) weigh 10 lbs? Going by your theories, isn't that rather grossly overweight?

quote:

originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

You can keep repeating that nobody here but you knows how to shoot a big bore rifle all you want, but that won't make the statement, or the conclusions that you base on it, any less absurd.

quote:

mark
you're right.. no, wait, *I* never said that... now did i?

Actually you did - clear as a bell.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
handling recoil, in a well fit gun (double or not) is a matter of training...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
9 to 9.5 is about perfect, for someone willing to learn and train to shoot it...

Seems quite clear to me that you meant that those of us who don't think a .500 should weigh 9 to 9.5 lbs aren't willing to learn, have done no serious shooting with large bore rifles, and when such an underweight beast turns out to be rough, that we're too simple to figure out why. Perhaps you meant something else?

If you found a 14 lb. .577, which you claim was a pretty close fit, to be too much for you to handle well enough to hunt with (as you stated on the .458 Lott vs .470 string), but can claim you found an 11 lb. .585 Nyati, that produced 280 fps more velocity than the .577 with the same bullet and did not even come close to fitting you, MUCH more comfortable to shoot - which defies the laws of physics - perhaps you need lessons?
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Mark,
some special reason for you being an ass here, or just because its thursday?
QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffeosso:
handling recoil, in a well fit gun (double or not) is a matter of training... and ya'll know i've knocked my gnoggin around!!
[/QUOTE]

If you don't wish to read what is WRITTEN, then, well, probably better to let you win this round...

have fun, hope your day gets better

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mark,
some special reason for you being an ass here, or just because its thursday?

Nah. Just needling you for the reaching that your dislike of double rifles leads you to sometimes, Jeffe. Saying that double rifles ALWAYS kick harder than comparable bolt rifles and that a 14 lb. .577 ate your lunch, and then saying that a double .500 is "perfect" at 9 to 9.5 lbs., if the shooter is willing to learn and "train", is more than inconsistent enough to be over the top, doncha think?
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

My .500 is 10 pounds and recoil is relatively mild because the stock fits well.

Speaking of ignoring the laws of physics, which is a thoroughly practiced art form on AR every day on every side of the fence, here is the real physics of shooting the big guns:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I didn't bother to read all responses. this may have been covered already.

I had a Heym 500NE. It does in fact kick a lot. The first time i shot it, i dislocated my middle finger on my trigger hand. I was scared shitless of the gun after this.

It was probably my fault for not holding it tightly.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bob:
Bill, you were right...the 500 is just what I want. Having had the good fortune of owning ( then not too intelligently) selling a H&H 465/ early Searcy 500/Coggsie 475/Heym 470, thru the years, I find myself looking hard at a Searcy Classic in 500 (again). The benefit being it's weight over the Heym, for example and the fact that I don't have to pony up the bulk of the money for 14 months.
Just had a concern that if the Heym 500 was in the running, it might be a bit light.....I think that is the consensus and it's probably valid.

Bwana Bob,
I am glad to see you have experience with double riffles. I would say go for it. Butch is building a better rifle now than the early ones and you will have the advantage of having it made to fit you. 11.5 lbs sounds heavy but handles better than you might think. Would you do me a favor and put your location in your profile.
Doc52,
You are absolutely right. I am tired of the couch potatoes wining about it’s to heavy, get in better shape do some weight training and it will be lighter.
Jeffeosso,
I have the perfect rifle for you a trim little .458Lott that weighs just 8.65 lbs with scope. I don’t give a rats a.. how much you “train†it will hurt you with Barns original 600 gr slugs at 2100. Yes it is great to carry but I call it my half to gun, I only shoot it when I half to.
Bill

Maybe it would make more since to argue about the weight of a double if we were all built the same?

Both John Taylor and John Hunter liked the 500 Nitro at 10 1/2 lbs. But both were good size guys that were built similarly.

465H&H

quote:

You are absolutely right. I am tired of the couch potatoes wining about it’s to heavy, get in better shape do some weight training and it will be lighter.

This is such a bull s--t cannard. I don't care how fit you are a heavier rifle is heavier and no amount of training will ever change that. A heavier rifle will wear you out faster, both through a day and over a long hunt as well. Spend a good six or more hours on tracks a day and a friggin marathon runner is going to be looking for every opprtunity to shed weight. Spend a month on tracks six hours a day, seven days a week and you will spit out your chewing gum before you strike out on tracks.

I'm not a very light weight rifle fan, but what some of you all view as acceptable rifle weight is just a joke and to me indicative of poor attention to detail from the builder or the fellow who ordered a rifle. Making a rifle safe and light and yet well balance and responsive is an art, making it heavy and well balanced is a short cut.

I'm not a coolaid drinker in the "gravity is forever but recoil last but for a moment" crowd but there is some merit to the postulate. Not a lick of merit to the over weight rifle fan club. Best rifles on the lighter side of history, but many of you all are just off the scale so to speak.

Proper hunting weight rifle = enough to shoot half a dozen times in succession easy and not be afraid of the rifle.

Some guys want to shoot their doubles all day, why? It isn't supposed to be a range queen. Half a dozen a couple times early and then late in a session is plenty. Need more practice? Have more frequent sessions.

For me:

~8.5-9lbs for a 375H&H or Flanged Magnum double, bare no scope.
~9-9.75lbs for a 450/400
~10-10.25lbs for a 450 to 470

I'd go 10.75-11 for a 500 but I haven't shot too many different rifles in 500.

JPK

re-reading my first post on it.. TO ME ...9# is too light, 11 is WAY to heavy, and 10.5 is the most i would consider..

MY opinion, and i don't like heavy rifles.. agree with me? well, i wish you well on your choice, and hope you feel the same to me.

if you want a 17# 500ne? good for you, its your money

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
9# is too light, 10.5 is too heavy, if you are willing to train for it.

...

9to 9.5 is about perfect, for someone willing to learn and train to shoot it... if you aren't willing or wanting, go 10.5

465H&H,
This goes back to what has already been posted. They were people who carried a lot and shot little. This was the stopper for when some one else didn’t do their job well.

Pegleg,
Having adequate weight in a double or any rifle is just as important as having it fit you properly. Regardless of build
Bill

Just a question for discussion...

All of you guys who have humped miles upon miles with your rifles in the oppressing heat of Africa, why not use a sling?

I know a sling is not "Africa", but why not use one?

JPK,

You are wasting your "breath" on this topic. I would knock off a pound and a half or two from your weights. I'm used to the internet abuse, though.

Taylor was much in favor of lightweight doubles and he must have been in better shape than anyone who has ever heard of a computer today.

I wonder where those old lightweight doubles are today. I guess they don't get sold like those old tree trunks for sale these days.

I have a Heym in 500 that will arrive next month and it should weigh around 10.5-10.75lbs. I have a long length of pull 15 1/8 inches so it might be 10.75 lbs. Weight is a major issue when hunting, and I'm in excellent shape. If you cannot shoot a 500 under 11 lbs then practice till you can or get a 470 under 11 lbs. Any thing over eleven pounds to me is unacceptable on the track unless someone is carrying it for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
JPK,

You are wasting your "breath" on this topic. I would knock off a pound and a half or two from your weights. I'm used to the internet abuse, though.

Taylor was much in favor of lightweight doubles and he must have been in better shape than anyone who has ever heard of a computer today.

I wonder where those old lightweight doubles are today. I guess they don't get sold like those old tree trunks for sale these days.

+1. I don't care what the caliber is, 10 pounds is all I'm going to carry around. I've had a 10 pound W-R with detach locks in 500N.E. and it was not a problem to shoot quickly or accurately. Also owned a 10 pound 470 and it was a dream to shoot or carry. Wish I would have kept them because those kind never seem to come up for sale...

quote:

Originally posted by John S:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
JPK,

You are wasting your "breath" on this topic. I would knock off a pound and a half or two from your weights. I'm used to the internet abuse, though.

Taylor was much in favor of lightweight doubles and he must have been in better shape than anyone who has ever heard of a computer today.

I wonder where those old lightweight doubles are today. I guess they don't get sold like those old tree trunks for sale these days.

+1. I don't care what the caliber is, 10 pounds is all I'm going to carry around. I've had a 10 pound W-R with detach locks in 500N.E. and it was not a problem to shoot quickly or accurately. Also owned a 10 pound 470 and it was a dream to shoot or carry. Wish I would have kept them because those kind never seem to come up for sale...

I died a little when you sold that WR 500, single trigger and all. I should have killed for it, as I was about $35K short.