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Is the 500/416 nitro express calibre on its way out , with the introduction of the 416 flanged by john rigby . | ||
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One of Us |
Neither will ever be popular DR calibers. Yes, it is on its way out and any new cartridge replacing it, won't last long either. No 416 belongs in a Double Rifle. Sure, some will be sold..... Stick with a traditional DR cartridge. | |||
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One of Us |
Yes, it's gone...almost. The problem is with any new cartridge or caliber invention that does not become popular is over the years brass will begin to vanish. It seems like many folks want to reinvent the wheel. Happens a lot in the bullet business so the new inventions take on stupid names for a hype factor to get attention but don't work any better than the prior offerings. There are plenty of cartidges from generations ago that will work just fine and history shows they will continue to be here. C _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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| new member |
Thanks dpcd,& cal. Whats your opinion on 450/400. I ask coz max i hunt is buff, and want a calibre in double that is similar to 416 rigby or 404 jeff bolt action . They are lighter , and do not have that much recoil. Do you think 450/400 is popular enough and will be on the scene long enough. | |||
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| One of Us |
The .450-400 3" will be here forever. The 3 1/4" version is older but not as common, and brass may be hard to come by. However, the ballistics are about the same. The .450-400 will drop anything on earth. Larger calibers are fun but not really needed. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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| One of Us |
Just my 2¢: .500/.416 is a blue baby..... My guess is the Rigby .416 Flanged will soldier on as a basically proprietary offering for Rigby aficionados. No doubt Rigby will ensure ammo availability to those customers that step up to the plate and buy a bespoke double from them. Those guys likely do not reload anyway. For everyone else? As Cal says, the .450/.400 3” Jeffery will take care of the needs of the rest of us. - Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Yep; 450-400 is the best DR caliber for most guys; certainly my favorite, (I like them all though). And John Taylor thought highly of it as well. It will be around as long as we are allowed to have rifles. The new cartridges; not so much. The 416 in any version is simply not a double rifle caliber; it is a bolt action caliber. Once you get that engrained in your brain, it can't be changed. And unlike new bolt action cartridges, some of which become popular even though they duplicate older rounds, the double rifle market is so small and the clientele is so savvy, new calibers can't, and shouldn't, survive. Blue baby? Aptly put. | |||
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| One of Us |
Darn worthwhile thread and excellent responses! | |||
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One of Us |
450-400 caliber DR: "The first double rifle one should buy and the last double rifle one should sell" have owned about 60 total, now, down to 5 | |||
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One of Us |
Bought a Krieghoff 500/416 about 15 years ago. Krieghoff promised they would always have ammo for it. | |||
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One of Us |
I load my own, easy as pie,I have both the 400 & the 416,like em both,the 400 is a good round but the 416 puts game on the ground right here right now, shot a buff that dropped where it stood,you gain an extra 1000 ft/lbs of energy over the 400. DRSS | |||
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| One of Us |
i as well had a 500/416- for the recoil, i'd simply rather have a 450NE (or for that matter 470) the flatter trajectory of the 500/416 round is a slight benefit at the longer distances that DR's may be used (esp. with an optic) overall, i have sold all my "atypical" DR calibers in favor of the old standards | |||
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one of us |
Agreed! The 450-400 3" is one of the most one needs to hunt anything from wild boar to elephant with one rifle for North America, Europe, and Africa. Can be made light enough to carry for miles of walking, but powerful enough to take on just about anything one might come in contact with that walk! One of my favorite double rifle chamberings! ......……............…….  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Moderator |
my 2 cents.. external ballistics, it would make sense to a bolt gun guy .. in fact, it made PERFECT sense to me, 20ish years ago .. when i knew next to nothing about doubles, other than it was the fastest way to have an aimed second shot(wow, it has been on to 20 years.. ) I didn't understand the express rifle's purpose, even though i knew bolt guns very well. In a nutshell, saving $3 (it was only 50cents then) per shot, to have a more common bullet, meant NOTHING in the grand scheme of things, as related to double rifle hunting .. 300 fps over the 450/400 meant nothing .. 2150 is more than fine .... a 450/416 - loaded to 450/400 but with a 416 bullet, might have had a chance, might ... but i doubt it .. I've handled far more single shot 500/416s than doubles -- ratio about 7 to 2, and shot several.. then again, when I was younger and dumber, I thought it was a good idea.. more velocity and cheaper bullets have to be better, right? nah, that's like wearing Hoka OneOne running shoes with a tweed suit ... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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One of Us |
As an owner of a 450/400 3 inch NE, I'd like to express that I have always been happy with the round and rifle. Small enough to shoot hogs and big enough to handle what pops up out of the bush. The recoil is moderate. Especially if you use RL-15/Norma 203B and filler. I don't own a 470 and refuse to ever shoot Mike Jines' 500 because the recoil beats me up. I've become a recoil wuss in my old age! If you have the chance buy a double chambered in 450/400 3 inch. You will never regret it! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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| One of Us |
I own a 450-400, beautiful gun, shot a black bear, killed it good,I also own a 500-416,shot a Cape buffalo, killed it good,for now I always reach for my unpopular 500-416,even hunting hogs, but I mean but when I get old & seniorlike I shall cherish my 450-400  DRSS | |||
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| one of us |
late starter, by now you have probably gathered that double rifles and calibers have seen zero improvement in over 100 years! NO DEVELOPMENT. PERFECT AS INVENTED! I don't know how likely you think this is, but I find it highly unlikely. The bottom line is that many (most) people buy one because it is "traditional", and therefore they will never acknowledge that any thing is better than a "British" double. I have owned a Kreighoff 500/416. IMHO it is a fine rifle and a fine caliber. It may not be "stopper" in some circles, but then neither is a 450/400! It is however a very versatile caliber. As has been pointed out, it was designed to duplicate the 416 Rigby, but in a rimmed round. My Kreighoff had a scope in QD mounts, and I demonstrated to my own satisfaction the reproduceability of that process. I knew where the rifle shot out to 200 yards, with the scope. It is just a different rifle than a 500 x3 1/4 NE, or a 450 NE, both of which I have also owned. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Thanks all. My analysis so far. 500/416 will not be popular, and may vanish in time. 450/400 is lot more popular and has stood test of time and getting a resurgence in the 3"format. Hunting in zambia and not hunting elephants, and mostly the double would be used on buffalo, i feel the 450/400 is a great choice. We are not allowed reloading, and thus factory ammo availability also plays a role in the choice making. | |||
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| one of us |
Ive owned half a dozen 450-400s in 3 and 3.25", loved everyone of them especially my old stanby "Sweet Thang"...Ive shot a simi truck load of Buffalo with her, but alas she was sent down the road when retirement was evident..I use 4831 with 400 gr. bullets for 2200 FPS in all of them..I remember when folks said 4831 caused double combustion but that was just a he said she said, same with monolithic bullets I ran a lot of them thru those bores.. Id hunt a T rex with the 450-400, and kill it. I preferred the 3" version hands down for no particular reason other than the ease of brass. I never did get around to deciding which I liked best a double 450-400 or my 404 Jeffery mauser bolt guns..still havn't.. I did build a 450/416 with the help of Rick stickley, back when bullets were hard to come by and it was a real dandy on a Browning shotgun action. The 416 bullets showed awesome penetration just neck down the 450-400 to a .416 bullet and call it good..If anyone wants a set of dies I have a like new set Id sell to a high bidder most likely, I'll never use them again. but did consider a Ruger 1-S in that caliber at one time, it would be a awesome Wildcat. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
That velocity is pretty much the 500-416. I’m thinking about this caliber. | |||
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| Moderator |
hmm, nominal vels for the 400/450 is 2050, and the 500/416 is either 2350 or 2400 -- Ray's load is rifle specific - btw, 450/400 ammo is HALF the price of 500/416, and when we are talking anything like 10 bucks per round, that's a significant issue, if one wants the rifle regulated - and reloading, well, i think .416 bullets actually are cheaper than 404 I have an opinion that when one loads +P AND that martially changes the external ballistics, that load is nominally a different caliber ... and many carts are lists as +P, or +P+, as increased pressure opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes of course but I was referring to Ray’s experiences and success it was at a nominal M/V of 2200fps. Most 450-400 only make 2050 or less. Not that it’s a bad thing. | |||
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| One of Us |
One thing I’ve noticed during research is that some people say the 500/416 recoils like the 470. It seems like people who own it and shoot it allot say it’s nowhere near and a step up from the 450-400 but still quite manageable | |||
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| One of Us |
I dug up an old thread on the Big Bore forum that speaks to recoil. | |||
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| One of Us |
I am very pleased with a .450nitro by G. Gibbs. M0st biggame are often shot within 80 paces anyway. A faster caliber with a lighter bullet won’t benefit from a hunting perspective. Actually I would rather have a .577bpe than a .500/416 DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| One of Us |
I was seriously considering this round or the 416 No2 as a good alternative to a 450 or 470. My thought was that it would provide some better range with a little less recoil. The problem is when it's stacked against those rounds, recoil is apparently similar. Additionally even though the 416 starts at 2300 the downrange numbers seem to equalize pretty quick. Look at the energy and drops at 100 and 200 yards, they are really close. You could just as easily make a 200 yard shot on non-dangerous game with any of them. The sweet spot always seems to come right back around to the 450 3 1/4 NE  | |||
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| One of Us |
I have a 470,500-416,458 Lott,450-400,375 H&H & 30-06,all DR's,I never really studied the numbers much,they all called to me  DRSS | |||
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One of Us |
Well no the 470NE misbehaved itself at 200 yards, suddenly had a bit of energy left but no velocity | |||
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| One of Us |
Back in the '70's, when my company, Creighton & Warren, was the importer for Krieghoff hunting rifles, I tried to sell Dieter on the idea of a .375 H&H Flanged necked up to .458, a sort of rimmed .450 Watts. I even had a double rifle chambered for it. I called it the .450 C&W Magnum. To me it made a lot more sense, since bullets were more reeadily available and duplicating .458 WM performance with lower pressure seemed appropriate for a double rifle. Dieter was not interested and went instead with the 500/416, with predictable results. | |||
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| One of Us |
A kreighoff safari classic in this caliber sold for $7000 last week. | |||
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One of Us |
Love our 450 3 1/4 and .458 bullets are easy to come by. Jim PS, when Cal says a 450/400 will kill anything he forget to mention ........depending on who's shooting it. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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