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My friend Todd Williams and I got into an interesting discussion on the Sabatti thread that I thought deserved a thread of it's own. To me anyway, the beauty of a double rifle is that it doesn't wear a scope. I see a double rifle as a specialized tool designed to be shot at the regulation range for close encounters with game and especially dangerous game. Because they have two barrels, they are inherently heavier than bolt guns and a scope just makes them more barrel heavy. Aesthetically, I believe mounting a scope on a double is like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. It's an abomination that destroys the clean lines of a the gun. I can live with a Dr Optic but not a scope. Others must feel differently because I see lots of scopes on doubles. What say you? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | ||
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Dave - I personally think putting a scope on a big bore double rifle is like putting an outboard motor on a canoe - you can do it, but it just never looks right. I must admit that I do have scopes on my small bore doubles (eg 30R Blaser) so I can use them for North American game at 100 yards and beyond. My old eyes are just not good enough for iron sights at those ranges. My 470NE is a different story. I would never consider mounting a scope on it or any other double I would use for dangerous game. I can see the sights well enough in sunlight to hit a dessert plate 10 out of 10 times at 50yds offhand, and I think that is more than adequate for my applications. Small bore doubles are fine with a scope for me - the bigger stuff for dangerous game - no way! Mangwana | |||
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Big Bore Doubles, no scope. Maybe a holographic sight like the Doktor if your eyes are bad. Small bores, why not. Take that 30R Blaser of Admiral Dave's. Is that a 50 yard rifle only? Of course not. Some of us just like to hunt and shoot doubles instead of bolt guns. Some like semi autos instead of bolts, or even single shots. In fact, I like single shots more than bolts as well. My 9.3X74R with the scope will shoot 100 yards just fine. 200 just fine as well. Beyond that, I haven't tried. Why limit that little rifle to 50 yards? And putting the scope on it does not add weight to the barrels. The scope sits right at the balance point. The scope did not affect the balance point at all. As far as doubles being ugly with a scope, well ... take a look at my Chapuis:  You'll likely slap yo mamma before calling that gun ugly!  | |||
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Todd - I'd take that gal to the Prom any day of the week! I agree completely! Mangwana | |||
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Agree completely. I've scoped a .35 caliber double; use a top lever peep sight on a .303 double and a .22 k-Hornet double, and will have a scope for the .375 H&H flanged magnum that Butch Searcy is nearing completion on. Use the irons on my 500/450. Took a nice black wildebeeste at 196 paced yards using the scoped .35 double. Regards | |||
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If I get so blind I can't see the irons which isn't much longer I'll go to throwing rocks before I scope a SXS. Sure you can do it to an O/U but please not a SXS. | |||
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There are other "tricks". ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Todd Great looking rifle! Just awesome wood. Is that a Elephant hide bar top?? | |||
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Plan on scoping both of my Chapuis's because I am tired of getting belted in the cheek and to cheap to want to spend at least $2,500 to restock a $4,500 rifle. Not sure if I'll go with a Nikon 1x4 or an Ultradot. Searcy has built in Talley mounts and at some point it may get a red dot if these eyes can't shoot irons any more. Aesthetics wise I agree a double looks better without a scope but a low power scope or red dot can really extend the rifles use. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Gentlemen the double rifle is the polar opposite of a bolt, or single shot rifle no matter the game animal it is to be used for! To explain what I mean by that statement, with the bolt or single shot the scope is the primary sighting equipment, with irons as back up for special purposes. For general hunting the scope is mounted all the time. If there is a need for close in fast action the scope is removed for that purpose. With a double rifle the iron sights are the primary, and the rifle is normally carried without the scope. The scope is mounted on the rifle for special purposes. Purposes like when an animal is spotted where a bullet has to be threaded through a tiny hole in the bush to avoid small sticks that are often time invisible to the naked eye, but if hit will defect the bullet causing a wounded animal to sort out. For this reason the scopes on either type of rifle must be mounted in very high quality quick detachable mounts that will absolutely return to zero when removed and replaced every time without fail. On smaller chamberings, double rifles have been used with scopes in Europe for as long as scopes have been available. They were used to hunt mountains for wild boar, roe deer and ibex or even big bore doubles for guys with poor eyesight to hunt all of the big five. Even lion on bait can be taken easier with a scope sight on a double rifle. Cape buffalo can be taken easier when the light is poor in heavy jesse with an illuminated reticle. A reticle that shows up well on their black hide, by simply attaching the scope such as a true one power with a green or amber reticle. The one power lets the shooter shoot with both eyes open for fast action. Of course personal preference can be adhered to if a double rifle owner simply doesn’t like a scope on a double, but IMO the stubborn denial of the value of a scope on a double rifle for special purposes is in a word “ignorant”! It’s use can increase your chances of collecting a very high scoring trophy that may not be collected without that sight. I have a very old Westley Richards 500/450 double rifle that has facility for mounting a scope, so the use of scopes on doubles are not opposed to when attaching a scope when the need arises! As you well know, there are many of us who hunt almost exclusively with double rifles, and IMO it is silly not to use every advantage you can on your hunting rifle regardless of it’s type! ........................................................................  ...............................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Double rifle = big caliber, open sights for instinctive shooting, and close range use on large/dangerous game. If you want to use a small caliber DR at distances out to 200-300 yards, knock yourself out. I can't understand what the advantage of 2 ultra-reliable shots gives you when the animal is that far away. That's what scoped magazine rifles are for. | |||
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Dave, as I look at your list of doubles, Continental guns, the 9.3 begs for a scope. Classic claw mounts are beautiful in themselves. I agree with Mac | |||
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Well, Last November while tracking elephant, I carried my 600NE and my dad the 375Flanged. Neither wore a scope. For the leopard - the 375 sans scope. For Oryx, I put the scope on the 375Fl as I backed-up my dad who was using a Rem 700Ti in 300SAUM - which also had a scope. I got an email saying that the trophies should ship in a week - so obviously all tools were effective on their intended targets. I put scopes on my 9.3x74R and 30R which I had intended to use in the dense woods of the Northeast for deer - but both with Recknagel swing off mounts and wanted the choice of using both with and without, depending on the circumstance. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Well Dave I love your argument about scooping a double. “ It's an abomination that destroys the clean lines of the gun.” That is the exact argument I use to hear when I was a youngster about bolt rifles. You will still find people who will pay extra for a pre 64 Winchester that hasn’t been screwed up by drilling and taping for scope mounts. I also think you have been miss informed about how a double is supposed to shoot. There are basically two kinds of regulation. The first is the barrels are regulated to shoot on the same plane and at the same with apart as the barrel spacing. Then the sights are cut or regulated to make it hit where you aim it. Properly regulated rifles are never designed to cross or converge at a given distance. On many of the old English rifles they had sight leafs out to 150 and 200 yards and the people who bought them expected their rifles to shoot well enough to take game at these ranges. I think it would be Stupid (sorry I cant think of a nice way to put it tonight) not to take advantage of every advantage we can. I like the illuminated recital, as it stands out on an animal in low light situations. You can’t hit what you can’t see. You can always take the scope off if you are going into thick stuff where you will be up close and personal. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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Thanks Chris. Actually, Buffalo hide! The scope is a Trijicon and is mounted in quick detach rings. But more than likely, if it needs to come off for some big nasty in the thick nasty, I'll just switch to the 577NE!!! | |||
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I have killed a lot of game with my 9,3x74R. A lot with the iron sights ans a lot with the scope, includingsome shots near 300 and over 300 yards. I could not make those shots with out the scope. I also scoped my 450/400 double rifle, which makes it an all round hunting gun. I just do not know why some people have such an adversion to scopes on a double? You would scope a 375 H&H bolt rifle qhy not a 9,3 double? You would scope a 404 or a 416, why not a 450/400 double. The scope does the same thing for a double it does for any other type of rifle. Use quality QD mounts and of you do not want the scope on the rifle take it off. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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While I do not yet have my first double, I will be using a scope with it. It will be a 450/400. Still on the fence if it's going to be a Searcy field grade or a VC. Decisions, decisions... Either way the purchase is coming soon. My sense is that the scope will spend most of the time in my backpack while out deer/bear hunting. I think that the scope will be a real need as I get older and my eyes prevent the use of irons (age age 44 I think this is now starting). Also, I think its a wise move to have mounts on it in the event that I need to sell it in the future. | |||
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Dave, whilst I would never put one on a calibre bigger than .450, I have to agree with Bill and MacD37, the option of a QD mount on a medium is indispensible and it doesn´t necessarily slow it down close up, I took this stag running full tilt broadside at 50 yards with the scope set at 2 and I´m no great shot !  | |||
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My eyesight has got to the point where I can still shoot with a ghost ring sight but not normal open sights. Also, I believe a double is for speed...and speed shooting means glass (I have been an active IPSC shooter for 30 years and since the first red dot sight came out, no iron sighted handgun has been able to compete) I have an aimpoint Mico on my double and have been using a Delta point and Tijicon mini red dots for the last few years (started with a Burris fast fire but that didn't survive much recoil). I want two shots, I want them fast, and I want them on target-usually moving, at any distance from 2 to 200m. The aimpoint gives me that. At 200m the shots are crossing and 4" appart but I can still keep all in the 8 ring on a standard Bianchi mover shooting at 150m (longest range where I can train on a moving target). I am happy I could put in effective shots on a departing buff, lion or ele out two 200m as well as stop an incomming one. I know all my mats say putting the aimpoint on my Krieghoff is like drinking Blue label with fanta - but hey- it works. | |||
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AND, Mike, NO ONE is going to call that H&H Royal ugly!!  | |||
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Nice rifle and GREAT STAG!!! Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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Bill, with you being in Ft. Worth, maybe you, me and Lane can get together sometime soon and do a bit of shooting? I'm in Weatherford and Lane is in Gainsville (IIRC). | |||
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...........  I don't under stand what is the advantage of four shots in a bolt rifle up cloise either, when I can shoot four shots, on target out of a double rifle faster than anyone I know can from a bolt rifle! for the long range shot, I suppose when you are hunting with a double rifle you could build a large holster and carry a bolt rifle like a gun slinger, But it is a lot easier to simply attach a pre-zeroed scope when that longer shot is presented to you! You know Biebs some of use hunt almost exclusively with a double rifle, and my question is, why not get all the rifle has to offer?  .................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I never thought I would scope one of my doubles but I picked up a Jeffery sidelock in 450/400 that had been scoped previously. I find I take this rifle more and more over my unscoped doubles for hunting in the states. It is the perfect combination. I wouldn't use it with a scope for Elephant but I plan on my son using it next summer to take his buffalo. I just got it back from Paul Hodgins who did a great job restocking it. Here is a link to a posting I did on NitroExpress.com: http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=1#Post166653 | |||
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Mac says I am ignorant and Bill Cooley thinks I am just stupid. I knew I was going to catch hell for this....  Two questions. What's the best red dot optic and where is it mounted, on the forward or rear mount? As distasteful as I find this, I may have to give a red dot a try on my 9,3. Oh lord, save me. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Here it is! copied and pasted from NE!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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 Dave you da man! ......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Well ... For me, a person who to often hunts with my 300H&H Craig Boddington African Series Kudu Special Model Ruger NO. 1 (sorry, no compass in the stock), the advantage of the scoped double is: Wait for it!! 1 extra shot! | |||
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Mac, if I can warm up to a red dot, maybe you can warm up to and S2? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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I don't know where the notion that a scoped double was somehow 'slower" than open sights came from. A properly scoped double (IMHO) is faster than open sights . Two things to line up instead of three. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Correct Peter. There have been numerous tests using scoped v unscoped rifles (one by our very own 458Win AKA Phil Shoemaker if memory serves) and ths scoped rifle won every time, even in close shots. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Out of all of my guns my favorite is a simply beautiful No1 Boddington model in .450NE. I love hunting with that rifle. I never thought about it but now I believe I will put a compass (or even a gps) in the stock! "The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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I like the Doctor Optic with the 4 minute dot. The distance it is from you eye does not matter to the accuracy fo the site but some people like them closer to the eye vs farther away. I suggest you get the DO and then tape it to your touble, trying both locations and see what you prefer. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Any suggestion on a mount? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave, why not check with nitro450 on the K gun thread? He has a Doctor Optic on his K gun if you look at the picture. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I'm all for it.  André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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Aimpoint make a standard mount that fits the K. Gun scope mount- I can now click the dot mount on or off the rifle as I desire- I could mout a 'scope if the madeness ever over took me or I could click on the old Leupold delta dot I now have on an aimpoint mount which lives in the trackers back pack to be sure to be sure... MacD.. Two fast shots at long range...well not my usual style, but there are occasions in any working PH's life when you have to make any and all attenps to stop a fleeling wounded animal crossing a boundary. I have twice had to take long range shots at a departing wounded animal- not common, but when necessary, an absolutely vital part of the service I am paid to provide. That is twice as often as I have had to stop a charge (charged in 1986...charged in 2010) Had to shoot an animal that charged off somebodyelse in 1998. Since 1999 had to shoot two departing animals at 200+ and c300m for clients to get and keep their trophies. I would hate to be limmited and unable to atted to this part of a PH's work as I would be at being unable to protect myself or the client. I see a good double with glass as no hiderance. I see an Iron Sighted double as useless to me beyond 50m or so unless fitted with a peep and even then limited beyon 100m or so (I know I cannot keep all shots ON the Bianchi mover at 150m with the Ghost ring on my 9,3 anymore Let alone hold them all in the 12" 8 ring ling I can with my double - or my 9,3 with the same aimpoint or Leupold or trijicon red dot on it). | |||
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Agreed, but with absolutely no hunting experience with a double to back it up! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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.................. ...... One is likely the other is not! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles To scope or not to scope, that is the question?
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