Can doubling damage a rifle?

yes.. and the shooter, too

quote:

the shooter, too

physically and mentally

i doubled a 500 nitro and a 577 it was deffintly a eye opener its been quite some time since iv been on the ar forums i got married had a few kids ect and settled down alot i see the forums have slowed down a fair bit since 2004 ect...

I doubled my 500 NE yesterday. It didn't hurt me but I do hope to never do it again.

What should I look for in terms of potential damage?

Larry,
Don't be too concerned, VC's are a solid rifle!
I have doubled my 600 VC twice, man does that rock your world!!!
No damage to mine at all.

The only thing to check is any splitting of the stock where it is joined to the action. The weakest spot would be the rear tang behind the safety.

Ken can probably chime in on this as he would be more knowledgable with the VC.s

Cheers

Nick

I would say no.
Rifles are proofed with more than a double charge in one barrel. Doubling the standard charge in each barrel is not over pressure. It's not fun, but I doubt it damages the rifle.
Cal

Only if you wind up dropping it :-)

I had shot the gun 40 times with reduced power target loads. No issues. Gun shoots great. Fits me well. Love it.

Yesterday was my first attempt at full power loads. It was also the first time I shot CoreBon ammo I acquired in their close out. I was on high alert to see what this would be like.

I decided to pull the rear trigger first as I often have my middle finger hammered by the trigger guard. When I pulled the trigger, I got the ever loving @#$% kicked out of me. I thought, damn I was not expecting that. I went to the front trigger. Nothing happened. I broke the gun open and both cartridges ejected. The gun had doubled.

I fired it 8 more times pulling the front trigger first. No problem. I also noted that firing 1 barrel was a hell of a lot more pleasant than doubling! LOL!

I wonder if somehow I used the front trigger instead of the rear. I have never once done that in my life including shooting thousands of rounds with a double trigger SXS 12 ga.

What I should have done is load one barrel with a live round and one with an empty. Pull the back trigger then eject the spent shell. If both eject, I have a problem. Obviously, I am an idiot for not doing this yesterday.

My wife said she noticed the kick and the noise but has no idea if I accidentally used the front trigger.

I am going to head to the range after I finish at the office to test this .

I would add that I was vaporizing clay pigeons at about 47 yards. I love the gun.

Larry, I will be interested to see your diagnosis of what happened.
peter

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I would say no.
Rifles are proofed with more than a double charge in one barrel. Doubling the standard charge in each barrel is not over pressure. It's not fun, but I doubt it damages the rifle.
Cal

..................Plus one! However it will ring your bell for you!

As Cal said, I would not worry about the barrels or the action . . . the stock is what would concern me.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
As Cal said, I would not worry about the barrels or the action . . . the stock is what would concern me.

When I think I've given a good and complete answer someone comes along and one ups me. Mike is 100% correct--the stock (probably at the wrist) is a concern.
Thanks, Mike.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I would say no.
Rifles are proofed with more than a double charge in one barrel. Doubling the standard charge in each barrel is not over pressure. It's not fun, but I doubt it damages the rifle.
Cal

I mean this with all respect possible for Cal, not to harp at him or anyone else

i think it's actually 30% over pressure according to CIP, and it's single loaded ..

NOT DOUBLE CHARGED - i realize that was shorthand, but there is not a standard for this, and since pressure rise isn't linear, a double charge would be more than double pressure, assuming it would fit in the case - and 40kpsi at +30% is 52K psi -- 40K at (merely) double PRESSURE would be 80k, and well into brass failure ranges for a BOLT gun

doubling can damage the hinge pin, break the stock, and even damage the under bite -- i don't think it could hurt a third bite, but i wouldn't be surprised if a dolls head could be bent.

it had damage the shooter physically and induce a flinch, in big guns, with bad injuries, it has to be trained out...

it MORE than doubles felt recoil, to boot.. and in a 577, can result is vastly deeper than expected contusions, "draining" bruises, bashed fingers, and/or even cuts on the finger and hits in the face...

Well gentlemen, I worked several hours today then went to the range. There is zero doubt that it is the gun.

I fired 2 target loads first using the front trigger first. No problem. Then on 3 separate occasions, I loaded the left barrel with a full load round and placed an empty in the right barrel. I pulled the back trigger first. Then moved to the front trigger. It was not possible to pull the front trigger as the right barrel had "fired" each time.

There is no problem (yet?) if I shoot the front trigger first.

Any ideas? Is this dangerous? Should I worry about normal shooting (front trigger first)?

I had shot 40 rounds before I had the problem but it was the first time I fired full power loads. I now have a total of 63 rounds through the gun. 50 reduced power target loads and 13 full power loads.

Your rifle should not double if you pull either trigger first, period. I would call the factory rep and have a talk with them.

AKMATT

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Moore:
Your rifle should not double if you pull either trigger first, period. I would call the factory rep and have a talk with them.

AKMATT

I agree 100%. You should be able to fire front or rear trigger first without the rifle doubling.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I would say no.
Rifles are proofed with more than a double charge in one barrel. Doubling the standard charge in each barrel is not over pressure. It's not fun, but I doubt it damages the rifle.
Cal

I mean this with all respect possible for Cal, not to harp at him or anyone else

i think it's actually 30% over pressure according to CIP, and it's single loaded ..

NOT DOUBLE CHARGED - i realize that was shorthand, but there is not a standard for this, and since pressure rise isn't linear, a double charge would be more than double pressure, assuming it would fit in the case - and 40kpsi at +30% is 52K psi -- 40K at (merely) double PRESSURE would be 80k, and well into brass failure ranges for a BOLT gun

doubling can damage the hinge pin, break the stock, and even damage the under bite -- i don't think it could hurt a third bite, but i wouldn't be surprised if a dolls head could be bent.

it had damage the shooter physically and induce a flinch, in big guns, with bad injuries, it has to be trained out...

it MORE than doubles felt recoil, to boot.. and in a 577, can result is vastly deeper than expected contusions, "draining" bruises, bashed fingers, and/or even cuts on the finger and hits in the face...

Jeffeosso:
I'm on the road traveling in the lower 48 and don't have any resources with me, but I seem to recall some proof loads with double powder charges and 2-3x the projectile weight. Perhaps it was in the black powder proofing or maybe my mind is slipping. I appreciate your feedback.
Cheers,
Cal

Larry, I agree that you should be able to pull either trigger first in that gives you the ability to select a solid or soft as the first shot if you so desire to load it that way.

Speak to Ken. He'll take care of you.

I called Ken. He is closed for several days.

I called JJ and spoke to him. He said that the only way to fix this would be to increase the trigger pull weight on the front trigger. With the weight my gun was set at, he would expect this to happen.

Frankly, the only time that I shoot the back trigger first is off the bench when checking the zero on the Doktor Optik. I do this because of my past issues of gettin my middle finger hammered when using the front trigger.

It seems like the issue is solved.

Now another question. What do you think doubling the 500 NE is comparable to in terms of recoil? 577 NE, 600 NE ????

I do not trust factory ammo at all,just to share my experience why?
I shot factory Federal ammo thru my Heym 470 & the safety jumped back on one occasion after firing the right barrel

Next was Corbon,loaded with Barnes solids,my smith happened to have some & was nice enough to give me 38 rounds no charge,so off to the range again using my standup rest,I touched off the right barrel & saw stars ha ha,the tip of the barrels was wedged into the corner of the wood structure that I was using as a support,the gun had doubled,checking the gun to make sure everything seemed ok,I loaded again & this time off hand I fired the right barrel,the gun doubled again,puzzled I loaded up some of my reloads & fired the gun,it shot normal,I shot some more Corbon but only loading one barrel,& every time the gun doubled,eventually it started doubling with my reloads as well,long story short,the gun went to JJ to have the triggers checked & I do not shoot any factory ammo anymore.

Your call Larry, but I would want the rifle to work like it is supposed to and I am sure that VC would make the issue right.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Your call Larry, but I would want the rifle to work like it is supposed to

+1

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
I would say no.
Rifles are proofed with more than a double charge in one barrel. Doubling the standard charge in each barrel is not over pressure. It's not fun, but I doubt it damages the rifle.
Cal

I looked up some info on the bore rifle book I did. 4-bores were proofed with 1000+ grains of powder and 8s with over 20 drams (550 grains). I don't have the projectile weight of proofing, but they are higher than 30%, at least in the old tables I have. The leafiest 4-bore charge I've seen is a few at 16 drams (440 grains), with most at 14 drams or 390 grains (about), so a proof charge of 1000+ grains is over 100%.
Cheers,
Cal

Certainly, Cal -- i can see where you could draw that conclusion - CIP proof loads, however, arent in this realm, per my understanding - though my french is weak, even with google translate.

My 2 cents, nothing more.

I don't think it would damage the gun at all, unless you dropped it. "Doubling" is never a simultaneous firing of both barrels, (else they would hit side by side, a bit high, and crossing, think about it), but rather the recoil of one barrel either causing the sear to slip on the other or a finger to brush the rear trigger. It may indeed seems simultaneous to the shooter (been there!) but is really a very fast 1-2 separated by a few hundredths of a sec, which is many lifetimes as far as the instantaneous peak forces on wood or metal are concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
My 2 cents, nothing more.

I don't think it would damage the gun at all, unless you dropped it. "Doubling" is never a simultaneous firing of both barrels, (else they would hit side by side, a bit high, and crossing, think about it), but rather the recoil of one barrel either causing the sear to slip on the other or a finger to brush the rear trigger. It may indeed seems simultaneous to the shooter (been there!) but is really a very fast 1-2 separated by a few hundredths of a sec, which is many lifetimes as far as the instantaneous peak forces on wood or metal are concerned.

......Absolutely perfectly explained!

Mostly just your ego! Especially when your your DRSS buddies are all laugh their asses off at you for doubling a 470!

As long as you're shooting it as designed - standing with nothing touching it except your shoulder and your hand on the forearm, the stock will be fine as well. It will be fine because your body absorbs the punishment.

I doubled a .470 Heym shortly after acquiring it. I thought leather gloves with the finger tips cut out was the way to go, and to keep the leather from fraying, I had the cut ends rolled and stitched. This made a nice little doughnut around the first knuckle of each finger. On the range it was fine, but I decided to go for a walk. On the walk I jumped an axis, and apparently in that situation my trigger yank was a bit more aggressive. That nice little leather doughnut around the first knuckle was thick enough to engage the top of the back trigger while the front was being jerked. The gun went vertical and after a couple steps back, I regained my balance. The leather on my trigger finger is now cut back to the second knuckle ....

The good thing about doubling is that subsequent (single) shots suddenly feel very tame!

First time I fired a 577 full 750-100 load, it doubled, I thought WOW!!....didn't expect that much recoil!! I didn't drop the fine H&H Royal, but it knocked me back about 2 steps, almost stepped on a friends HOWDAH behind me, and spun me around about 120 degrees and was almost pointing the closed gun at the shocked owner!!

Felt like I had whiplash for a few days...and hammered my pride....the gun was fine and OTHERS went on firing it!!

Yes, I pulled the back trigger first too!! This is NO, NO on a Holland as they set the front trigger lighter so you aren't apt to slip off and hit the back and set it off....AND the interlock is supposed to prevent doubling....according to George Caswell....fire the back trigger first and it might double due to light sear on front trigger , if the interlock is disengaged or worn??
Didn't hurt the gun....and this one has been fired thousands of rounds by the owner...who shoots it like a small bore!!

Cheers,

I am not familiar with the VC so pardon my ignorance. Does the VC design not include intercepting sears? I know that the Heym 88B does have intercepting sears and cannot double without the triggers being depressed.

quote:

Originally posted by Tsquare2:
I am not familiar with the VC so pardon my ignorance. Does the VC design not include intercepting sears? I know that the Heym 88B does have intercepting sears and cannot double without the triggers being depressed.

Intercepting sears are not "standard" on most VC DRs however they can be ordered with them for a relatively small additional cost.

Doubled my 470 only one time. I didn't find the recoil painful but it did bring the muzzle a lot closer to vertical. Reason for doubling was that I am a lefty shooting a right hand configured K gun, pulling front trigger first. I promptly had the trigger configuration changed to left hand and no further troubles and much more comfortable to shoot.

That being the case, I have no desire to shoot anything bigger than a 470. I don't care if mark Sullivan thinks it's a girl gun. It's all I can handle.