I am certain this has come up before, but when one carries a double rifle muzzles forward over the shoulder while walking single file on a game track, it is virtually impossible to avoid "sweeping" the chap ahead of you, yet we see many highly experienced hunters doing this. Sometimes see "sweeping" as well when hunters are belly crawling in single file and lifting their rifles ahead of them.
Thoughts?

Who was the PH who said that he was sure that a buffalo was not going to gore him but he was far more afraid that the client behind him would shoot him in the back.

the topic has been pretty much beaten to death here:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/2881069252


- Mike

Probably the No. 3 beat to death dead horse subject on this forum right behind Mark Sullivan and SCI.

But I never read those other topics; no time to read every Category; but I do read Double Rifles; so I have never read anything on the topic.
Dead horse? Not to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I am certain this has come up before, but when one carries a double rifle muzzles forward over the shoulder while walking single file on a game track, it is virtually impossible to avoid "sweeping" the chap ahead of you, yet we see many highly experienced hunters doing this. Sometimes see "sweeping" as well when hunters are belly crawling in single file and lifting their rifles ahead of them.
Thoughts?

Sorry Bill, but you are simply wrong in this case! It makes no difference how one carries a firearm, it is still his responsibility for the control where his muzzles are pointed at all times. Carrying a rifle with a sling is no safer than any other method. A quick removal from the shoulder will sweep not only the one in front of you but the guy behind as well. dip down to go under a low tree branch with the rifle slung, and you may shoot the guy in front of you, hang the barrel on that low branch, and point the barrel at the guy behind you.


There is no perfect way to avoid sweeping except using your head, and guard the direction your muzzle/muzzles direction with your own mind.
A loaded fire arm IS DANGEROUS, and more dangerous when YOU don't pay strict attention to where YOU let YOUR muzzles point!
The method of carry has nothing to do with it, it is the owner of the fire arm who is responsible, not the carry, not the rifle's .

The carry method has nothing to do with a persons responsibility to know where his muzzle or muzzles are pointing at all times.

……………………………………………………..

Sorry but this topic has been discussed at length in the Double Rifles forum as well.

Here'a a link to one such discussion from a while back.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...461059081#5461059081

BTW, you'll notice there is a link within this link, pointing to yet another discussion of the African Carry. In said link, the forum is all set to blame the African Carry method for the accidental shooting of Ant. In fact, it turns out the AD was caused by the rifle slipping off the client's shoulder while carrying with a sling.

Simply put, the African Carry is the ultimate in muzzle control when performed correctly. Just carrying your rifle at sling arms in the traditional method is no guarantee of safe muzzle control.

It's not the method of carry but rather the vigilance of the guy carrying the rifle, regardless of the method he uses.

I use a sling about 90% of the time. I have the rifle in my hands 5% of the time and the remaining 5% of the time, I use the African Carry method. I always feel I have more active control of the muzzles when in that 10% of the time when the rifle is not on my shoulder with a sling. There are variables with the sling most simply fail to consider. For instance, when you go down a steep gully, you tend to lean back just a little. If the guy behind you is pressing, he'll end up looking down your barrel. Do you know where everyone behind you are 100% of the time? Not unless you have eyes in the back of your head. There are many, many other conditions when the rifle is on the sling whereby the muzzles can sweep the guys behind you without you knowing it.

African Carry does not mean "Muzzles Forward" and pointing at the line in front of you. It's typically 45% off to the side. When the line switches direction and you need to switch directions with the muzzles, you pull the muzzles in toward your body, muzzles pointed to the ground, then switch hands, never sweeping the guys in front ... why? Because you can see them and know exactly where the muzzles are in relation to them.

For a more in depth discussion, the "Find" feature is your friend. Go to the Advanced Search feature of the Find feature. Type in "African Carry". You'll get 103 PAGES of threads on the subject.

When I Africa carry,the muzzle of my double is my concern,it does not matter which hand? which shoulder? it's where the muzzle is pointed at,it's pretty darn simple unless one does not care who he sweeps & I will in sane mind avoid that at all costs,point it downwards,point it away,just point it away from what you are not hunting,

Todd is correct in his analogy,just be aware of where your muzzle is pointing at period,it does not matter what method you choose to use.

Damn, I missed it, 7 years ago.
And I didn't see the link back then either.

Sorry I brought it up fellas.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Damn, I missed it, 7 years ago.
And I didn't see the link back then either.

Just one example that happened to be 7 years ago. Just used the Find feature and grabbed the first one it presented. Again, there are 103 PAGES, not threads, but PAGES of threads on the topic. There is an active thread on it in African Hunting right now that is up to 3 pages so far. It's a common topic that reoccurs frequently, is discussed round and round and round, but is never resolved.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Sorry I brought it up fellas.

It's not that Bill. Just pointing you in the direction to find the prior discussions on the topic if you are interested in it as it really has been beat to death ... numerous times.

Look, it was not a topic in which I was interested, thought about, or wanted to look at, until I saw it here, so I had no impulse to "find" anything related to it, now, or 7 years ago.
Never even thought about it, until Bill said something.
But I get the policy; once it is discussed, it is not to be brought up again.
So, thanks to Bill for bravely broaching it. Sorry you had to be shot down over it. Place in the "No good intention goes unpunished" category.
So noted; I will move on....

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Look, it was not a topic in which I was interested, thought about, or wanted to look at, until I saw it here, so I had no impulse to "find" anything related to it, now, or 7 years ago.
Never even thought about it, until Bill said something.
But I get the policy; once it is discussed, it is not to be brought up again.
So, thanks to Bill for bravely broaching it. Sorry you had to be shot down over it. Place in the "No good intention goes unpunished" category.
So noted; I will move on....

Good lord man. Take a chill pill.

Between this one and the insistence on never allowing any humor into so called "serious" threads, you're going to have a heart attack.



Here' the bottom line on the African Carry subject.

It's been discussed, hashed, re-hashed to no end. It's currently being re-hashed again right now in the African Hunting section. If it's a topic that interests you, the find function will direct you to more comments on the subject that any new discussion will bring about ... why? Because most of the folks who have made comment on the subject are probably not interested in re-hashing again and again and again ... why? Because it's one of those subjects where guys line up on one side of the discussion or the other and no amount of discussion changes anyone's mind.

Just like the SCI and Mark Sullivan discussions.

In the end, it's no big deal either way. Want to discuss it again? Go for it. But don't be surprised if there is limited participation ... why? See above!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Sorry I brought it up fellas.

Well don't be sorry you brought it up. No offense meant, too bad some here have taken it that way.
I merely posted so that you or anyone else that missed that epic thread could see the other opinions and note the major teeth gnashing therein.
- Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Sorry I brought it up fellas.

Well don't be sorry you brought it up. No offense meant, too bad some here have taken it that way.
I merely posted so that you or anyone else that missed that epic thread could see the other opinions and note the major teeth gnashing therein.
- Mike

Exactly!!

At you shooting range with your doubles (or any other rifle) do you walk around “African Carry”? Asking for a friend (J/K)lol

A lengthy thread going in African hunting forum

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
At you shooting range with your doubles (or any other rifle) do you walk around “African Carry”? Asking for a friend (J/K)lol

A lengthy thread going in African hunting forum

At your shooting range, do you carry your rifles in their cases?

And people wonder why AR is losing posters.....


.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
And people wonder why AR is losing posters.....


.

Why is everyone getting their neck in a twist on this subject? Gentlemen it is simply a discussion, and all opinions are welcome.

Discussions like this one are where people learn, but if one is unwilling to being disagreed with, how is he to learn some things he may not have taken into his learning on any subject.


IMO, all here have made good points in their individual opinions, and if they are unwilling to receive a dissenting opinion for at least to compare it to their own with an open mind, nobody will ever even consider that one idea may make more sense than the one they started with.

Gentlemen don't get your nickers in a twist, simply because someone has a different opinion on your take on any subject.
In this case there is no reason for bad feelings, everyone has a right to their own opinion. ………………………………….AS LONG AS IT AGREES WITH MINE!

Mac, the only time I use a shoulder carry is when Todd is in front of me :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mac, the only time I use a shoulder carry is when Todd is in front of me :-)

lol

Biebs made a funny!

:-)

Done to death it may have been, and those pointing that out could have left it there.

However, in not doing so it is back on - and I notice advertisements etc still showing PHs carrying their own rifles in the African-carry position.

It is slow to get into action for the person using it but does make sense if a PH can find a tracker who will carry his stopper like that, ready to be grabbed when needed.

Also, Pondoro warned against carrying hammer guns in that position, as trailing vines tend to cock them.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Done to death it may have been, and those pointing that out could have left it there.

However, in not doing so it is back on - and I notice advertisements etc still showing PHs carrying their own rifles in the African-carry position.

It is slow to get into action for the person using it but does make sense if a PH can find a tracker who will carry his stopper like that, ready to be grabbed when needed.

Also, Pondoro warned against carrying hammer guns in that position, as trailing vines tend to cock them.

Hey, I'll always engage in this particular conversation. Why? ... because we are talking hunting and shooting and not politics which seems to be the way the forum has gone as of late. But at the same time, I'll point out that anyone interested in the topic will likely get more info from the find feature than from new commentary.

As to the African Carry method being slow to get the rifle into action ....NO! It is not!! I can get a rifle into action from the African Carry much faster than from a sling if time is critical.

Maybe for the unpracticed or those unfamiliar with the carry method such as the guys who insist the muzzles sweep the guys in front simply from watching a few videos where camera angles play tricks on perception.

But then again, speed of getting the rifle into action really isn't a deciding factor from a practical matter, any more than a 2 lbs heavier rifle isn't any faster to get back onto target due to excessive recoil. In the field, getting the rifle into position a few fractions of a second faster would only be an issue in the event of an unannounced ele, or maybe a unknown wounded buff charge from close range. Sure, it happens but it's extremely rare. In most instances of that nature, you'll have adequate time to get the rifle even off the sling and into action in plenty of time. For that matter, your trackers and PH will probably have picked up on the situation well before it registers with you and the PH will have his rifle into action and the event completely sorted before you as a client are fully aware of what is happening! Any other time you need the rifle into action right now, such as the PH allowing you to accompany him on a wounded animal follow up, you'll have the rifle in hand and at the ready. THIS being the time the PH or trackers are really in danger of getting shot accidentally.

As to comment about the PH finding a tracker to carry his rifle in that manner? These aren't the old ivory hunter's days! LOL. I've hunted with 5 PH's that carry doubles and they all use the African Carry method 100% of the time they have the rifle. I've never seen a sling on a PH's double. Not to say there aren't PHs that sling their doubles, but in my limited experience, I've not run across one yet.

The typical set up between PH and tracker is that the lead tracker will be out front and he carries the shooting sticks. The PH will be directly behind him carrying his DR, using the AC method. Then when action starts to heat up, in the case of buffalo, the PH will take the sticks and the tracker will take the rifle. The PH will be first, followed by the client, followed by the lead tracker. In the case of elephant, the PH will retain possession of his rifle the entire time. I've never seen the lead tracker out front carrying the rifle AC style, waiting for the PH to slip up from behind and grab the weapon already pointing at the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Done to death it may have been, and those pointing that out could have left it there.

However, in not doing so it is back on - and I notice advertisements etc still showing PHs carrying their own rifles in the African-carry position.

It is slow to get into action for the person using it but does make sense if a PH can find a tracker who will carry his stopper like that, ready to be grabbed when needed.

Also, Pondoro warned against carrying hammer guns in that position, as trailing vines tend to cock them.

Hey, I'll always engage in this particular conversation. Why? ... because we are talking hunting and shooting and not politics which seems to be the way the forum has gone as of late. But at the same time, I'll point out that anyone interested in the topic will likely get more info from the find feature than from new commentary.

As to the African Carry method being slow to get the rifle into action ....NO! It is not!! I can get a rifle into action from the African Carry much faster than from a sling if time is critical.

Maybe for the unpracticed or those unfamiliar with the carry method such as the guys who insist the muzzles sweep the guys in front simply from watching a few videos where camera angles play tricks on perception.

But then again, speed of getting the rifle into action really isn't a deciding factor from a practical matter, any more than a 2 lbs heavier rifle isn't any faster to get back onto target due to excessive recoil. In the field, getting the rifle into position a few fractions of a second faster would only be an issue in the event of an unannounced ele, or maybe a unknown wounded buff charge from close range. Sure, it happens but it's extremely rare. In most instances of that nature, you'll have adequate time to get the rifle even off the sling and into action in plenty of time. For that matter, your trackers and PH will probably have picked up on the situation well before it registers with you and the PH will have his rifle into action and the event completely sorted before you as a client are fully aware of what is happening! Any other time you need the rifle into action right now, such as the PH allowing you to accompany him on a wounded animal follow up, you'll have the rifle in hand and at the ready. THIS being the time the PH or trackers are really in danger of getting shot accidentally.

As to comment about the PH finding a tracker to carry his rifle in that manner? These aren't the old ivory hunter's days! LOL. I've hunted with 5 PH's that carry doubles and they all use the African Carry method 100% of the time they have the rifle. I've never seen a sling on a PH's double. Not to say there aren't PHs that sling their doubles, but in my limited experience, I've not run across one yet.

The typical set up between PH and tracker is that the lead tracker will be out front and he carries the shooting sticks. The PH will be directly behind him carrying his DR, using the AC method. Then when action starts to heat up, in the case of buffalo, the PH will take the sticks and the tracker will take the rifle. The PH will be first, followed by the client, followed by the lead tracker. In the case of elephant, the PH will retain possession of his rifle the entire time. I've never seen the lead tracker out front carrying the rifle AC style, waiting for the PH to slip up from behind and grab the weapon already pointing at the game.

Well said Todd! Mac

The issue is safety and being brought up again is not a bad idea.

Dave

The PH will not let anyone walk behind him with a loaded rifle unless he feels safe.If he is hunting with a new client he will get a sense of their experience with a rifle and often check behind him to see if the rifle is on safety and if it is carelessly being pointed in the wrong direction.Only when the PH feels safe-which can take more than a hunt with that client, will everything run smooth.

I wonder, Todd, if you could explain exactly how we should get a rifle carried in the African fashion into action quickly? Merely comparing it with a slung rifle isn't saying much ... and tells us nothing about how it is done.

With no sling on my double, I carry it variously by my side in the right hand, crooked in the right arm or cradled in the left or ready to go in two hands. The arms may get tired in any one position for too long but safety is less contentious and getting the butt to my shoulder only takes a moment.

When hunting on my own with a heavy rifle, or at the end of a conga line, I sometimes have it over my shoulder with the barrels pointing to the rear. Simply pulling the butt down will bring barrels and fore end swinging past my ear, to be caught by my left hand as they point forward. Then the right hand just needs to shift to the pistol hand, orient it and pull the butt into the shoulder.

This may not be much of a procedure in your opinion but at least I have explained it.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I wonder, Todd, if you could explain exactly how we should get a rifle carried in the African fashion into action quickly? Merely comparing it with a slung rifle isn't saying much ... and tells us nothing about how it is done.

With no sling on my double, I carry it variously by my side in the right hand, crooked in the right arm or cradled in the left or ready to go in two hands. The arms may get tired in any one position for too long but safety is less contentious and getting the butt to my shoulder only takes a moment.

When hunting on my own with a heavy rifle, or at the end of a conga line, I sometimes have it over my shoulder with the barrels pointing to the rear. Simply pulling the butt down will bring barrels and fore end swinging past my ear, to be caught by my left hand as they point forward. Then the right hand just needs to shift to the pistol hand, orient it and pull the butt into the shoulder.

This may not be much of a procedure in your opinion but at least I have explained it.

Carrying in the crook of your arm, at the ready as you mention, certainly is the best method for quickly getting the rifle into position. HOWEVER, we aren't talking about hunting upland birds over a dog, or expecting an unannounced flush at any moment. A double rifle will weigh close to twice what a good upland shotgun will and will quickly lead to fatigue. For example, if you read the hunt report I just posted, hunting a place like the Dande Safari area, where you are constantly dealing with steep gullies, walking though frequent patches of thick cover, and walking between 10 and 15 miles each day, often in the heat, you find you really need to rest the rifle in a manner that doesn't take constant muscle strain. As mentioned before, I use a sling about 90% of the time and only have the rifle in hand as you describe for about 5% of the time, with the AC method being used the remaining 5%, and that being mainly when my arms or hands get tired of carrying the rifle per your description when for whatever reason, action heating up or short distances between patches of thick jess, it isn't convenient to put the sling back on.

As to the quick deployment method from the AC position, I can explain it but let's realize there are some caveats.

First and foremost, as I explained in my earlier post, time to get the rifle into action from rest, as a practical matter, is almost never a critical issue. My safari experience is limited to 11 trips, of which 10 were DG hunts of various and multiple types, always involving a buffalo and / or an elephant. In that limited experience, and in speaking with others with more experience, as well as several PH's, I've not run across an example where getting the rifle into action to prevent disaster or take an animal depended on doing so from the at rest carry position in a matter of fractions of a second.

I state that disclaimer for a reason. Under normal circumstances, getting the rifle into action from the AC position takes about the same amount of time doing so from any other carry method does, save and except having the rifle in hand and carried at the ready, such as from the sling position. But in the extremely rare instance where the rifle has to be employed in that fraction of a second, to prevent something like being freight trained by an unannounced elephant, where if the rifle isn't deployed RIGHT NOW, your life is in question, under that circumstance, there is a VERY fast method of deploying the rifle.

Now the reason for the disclaimer. This very fast method involves sweeping your own shoulder for a fraction of a second. Because of that, one would only use this method in the above described extreme circumstance needed to save your life and WOULD NOT use this method as standard practice. The method is from the AC position, with barrels pointed forward (typically 45 degrees or so from straight forward, but I digress), you simply and very quickly pull the muzzles toward your body with the right hand (if right handed), creating the motion of setting the rifle into an end over end spin, let the spin continue, grab the forearm with your left hand as the rifle approaches the position of pointing forward again, the right hand finds the grip area, while allowing the butt to rise to your shoulder. This causes the rifle to go through a 360 degree arc and as noted, the muzzles will very quickly sweep your shoulder. This "Emergency" procedure allows the rifle to be put into action, from the AC position, in less than 1 second when performed correctly.

I thought about posting a video demonstrating the procedure but have decided against it as it would invariably be taken out of context, as this explanation likely will be, and be commented on as being advocated for normal deployment of the rifle from the AC position, which I am very positively NOT advocating.

What I may do in the next couple of days, if I can find time to do so, is post a video demonstrating how the AC method, properly executed, avoids sweeping the hunting party members in front of you by maintaining 100% positive control of the muzzles. From the multitude of comments from those unfamiliar with the carry method, on threads of this topic over the years, I think it might put some of the misunderstanding to rest, but I'll not hold my breath as to that matter. LOL

Todd this is off point, but I was wondering how your son is doing with his illness that didn't allow him to go with you on your last safari?

Hope he is OK! Mac

Thanks Todd, yes, that method should do the trick in an emergency.

There is another circumstance in which a rifle may be needed in a hurry, though. I'd had a shot at a big kudu in long grass but the semi-spitzer bullet clipped a piece and was deflected.

The PH and tracker then resolved to track the bull and apparently came upon it close up twice more over the next few hours. I didn't see it though, partly because two guys were in front of me and they didn't dive sideways to give me a shot. However, had I been up to expectations, I'd have had to get that rifle into action double quick.

BTW, I hope your son is OK.

If you are hunting it should be in your hands. If you are moving from point A to point B covering ground it won’t be for practical reasons for the most part. How you carry it when not “hunting” and in a group of people is what we are talking about right? That’s my reasoning anyway. How you carry it during the latter is the crux of the issue...

quote:

If you are hunting it should be in your hands. If you are moving from point A to point B covering ground it won’t be for practical reasons for the most part. How you carry it when not “hunting” and in a group of people is what we are talking about right? That’s my reasoning anyway. How you carry it during the latter is the crux of the issue...

What's "hunting" while hunting I carried firearms in all manners of ways.

Including doubles with muzzle forward over the shoulder.

Take walk up bird hunting one can cover many miles. Where one can expect a shot at any instant.

But where carrying ones hands at instant ready can become very tiring.

Being able to bring one arms into action from different positions fast is a big advantage..

Practice from all is a big help.

Hunting with a guide adds a whole different perspective to the equation.

Mac,

He seems to be doing much better. Docs have him on a plan. Took getting into a specialist to get him diagnosed but since then, he seems to be in good shape.

Thanks for asking and for all those who have inquired.

Why can’t members discuss a subject that THEY have not participated in, but others have??

There is subject under the sun concerning hunting that has not been discussed here at one time or another.

Good to hear

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mac,

He seems to be doing much better. Docs have him on a plan. Took getting into a specialist to get him diagnosed but since then, he seems to be in good shape.

Thanks for asking and for all those who have inquired.

And that’s why we like it!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Why can’t members discuss a subject that THEY have not participated in, but others have??

There is subject under the sun concerning hunting that has not been discussed here at one time or another.

So what’s your definition of hunting? Getting out of the vehicle? Walking in a line of people to get fron point a to b? Tracking close or far? Closing in on an imminent encounter? I guess flying to Africa can be considered “going on a hunt”.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

If you are hunting it should be in your hands. If you are moving from point A to point B covering ground it won’t be for practical reasons for the most part. How you carry it when not “hunting” and in a group of people is what we are talking about right? That’s my reasoning anyway. How you carry it during the latter is the crux of the issue...

What's "hunting" while hunting I carried firearms in all manners of ways.

Including doubles with muzzle forward over the shoulder.

Take walk up bird hunting one can cover many miles. Where one can expect a shot at any instant.

But where carrying ones hands at instant ready can become very tiring.

Being able to bring one arms into action from different positions fast is a big advantage..

Practice from all is a big help.

Hunting with a guide adds a whole different perspective to the equation.

Practice is always the key in just about everything

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

If you are hunting it should be in your hands. If you are moving from point A to point B covering ground it won’t be for practical reasons for the most part. How you carry it when not “hunting” and in a group of people is what we are talking about right? That’s my reasoning anyway. How you carry it during the latter is the crux of the issue...

What's "hunting" while hunting I carried firearms in all manners of ways.

Including doubles with muzzle forward over the shoulder.

Take walk up bird hunting one can cover many miles. Where one can expect a shot at any instant.

But where carrying ones hands at instant ready can become very tiring.

Being able to bring one arms into action from different positions fast is a big advantage..

Practice from all is a big help.

Hunting with a guide adds a whole different perspective to the equation.