My new DR arrived yesterday. I have been collecting custom bolt rifles and trading up over the past 12 years, in the hopes of someday being able to own a nice double rifle. I have been selling off several nice guns since October 08...many to members here on AR, in my quest to raise the money. My thanks go out to all of you that have helped me accomplish this.
I just purchased a left hand Searcy 470NE from Big Mo here on AR. Stan is a most pleasant gentleman to deal with and was very patient with me as I raised the money. The gun is "AS NEW" with only 20 rounds through it...a PH model with beautiful wood, leather pad, ejectors, fitted case, and fits me perfect. Stan gave me a good deal on the gun and I couldn't be happier with it.
I will stuff some Woodleigh's on some IMR 4831 tonight and weather permitting, shoot it this weekend.
Thanks to all AR members that post here on the DR forum, for all the education over the years. It has been most helpful in my decision to purchase the Searcy. Now...to start saving for the next DR...
Many thanks to you Big Mo!!!
Nitrodave

Congratulations!

I am sure you'll enjoy the new sweet heart in your collection. Good hunting.

Congrats Dave!

Keep us posted with shooting reports!

JPK

(still haven't shot the 45/70, but will immeadiately following duck season)

John,
Thanks! I'm excited!!
Let me know how the 45-70 works for you with the 405gr loads. I never tried any of that weight.
ND

Congratulations! Yes the saving and serch for the next one. Just don't believe the people that say you can quit aney time.
Bill

I went to the range Sunday. I will take a picture of the target this evening and post here....some good...some work needed on my part.
I will welcome advise from the experienced, based on the target...more to come.
ND

Here are some targets. This is a left hand rifle, so the left barrel fires first (front trigger). This was my virgin run, so there is some operator error as I get used to it. Please feel free to comment...you won't hurt my feelings.
First group is 25yds 500 Woodleigh soft over 106gr IMR4831. L1 is 2.5" right of center, R1 is 1" spread.


Second group is same load at 25yds. R1 is 1.25" straight up. L1 is 1.5" low right. I marked L&R backwards.
Group 3 is to the right shooting same target. 500gr cast over 106gr IMR4831. L1 is 6.5" right and R1 is 2"high and 3"right.


Group 4 is 50yds 500 Woodleigh soft. R3 is 3"right and 1"high. L3 is 1.75"spread.


Group 5 is 50yds 500 Woodleigh. R4 is 1.5"high right. L4 is .75"low and 4.75"right.


The height difference is probably me. I had to pull down really tight to get on target and probably didn't stay focused on the higher shots. The crossing pattern seemed to get worse at 50yds than 25yds...suggestions???
All shots were standing leaned over top of car...no bags...fairly steady but not rock solid.
Thoughts?...
ND

i am confused -- is that the load butch regulated it to?

you said you marked them wrong, L and R, so that is also a little confusing

if they are crossing at 25, it gets worse at 50, yep...

to ME it says your load and the regulation load a very different..

remedy is to call butch, get his regulation load, and use that until you master the rifle.. but i am not double rifle jedi

Jeff,
The group over the + in the second picture are the only ones I marked backwards. Forgot to correct before I took picture. The 500gr Woodleigh over 106gr of IMR4831 is the load that Stan told me Butch Searcy gave him. I have seen it listed here before as Searcy 470 regulation load. At first, I thought the crossing was just me...but the trend continued. I don't know wheather to speed up or slow down. I have heard that Butch regulates fairly hot compared to others?
ND

Congratulations Dave. Nice rifle. Envy is setting in.

Dave,

If full power loads are crossing, they are too fast and you need to slow them down. Remember that a perfect two shot group is like a figure eight laying on its side with the spread between centers equal to the spread between centers at the muzzle. Right barrel on right and left barrel on left.

Might as well skip the 25yd shooting, it is difficult to see your load alterations moving your respective points of impact at less than 50yds, especially as you near the perfect load.

Get some bags, and shoot off a standing bench if possible. To find the right load, you must eliminate all variables, because when you start changing your load you need to see the incremental improvements and that is difficult if your hold and shooting is less than pefectly repeatble.

I find that I shoot the best groups, especially regarding elevation, shooting with a six oclock hold on a 4" or 6" round target. Its relatively easy to hold the round target on top of the bead.

Remember to hold the barrels and rest your right hand on the bags, not the barrels.

Good luck! Your not too far off, imo.

JPK

Dave,

Call or e-mail Butch with the serial number of the rifle and he'll give you the load for which the rifle was regulated.

The regulation loads have varied with model over time ... so you'll want the load for which your rifle is regulated.

(I have an old Field Grade and it was regulated with 108 gr of IMR4831. That was back when Butch was doing his regulation at about 2250 fps. Apparently he discovered that velocity simply wasn't needed in the field It is a bit on the exciting side.)

My Searcy was also regulated per Butch at 106gr of IMR4831 using Norma brass. If you are using Bell (Jamison) brass you will have to reduce your load because it is thicker, thus giving higher pressure. I found this out day one with mine as the Bell brass was difficult to extract. When I use Norma brass and the 106gr load it performs as Butch regulated it and easy extraction. The only problem is that the Norma brass is only good for about two loadings in my rifle before separation.

I e-mailed Butch last night with my seriel#. Should see a load back tonight, when I get home. I am using Norma brass. At the relatively low pressures, why doesn't Norma last longer? It damn sure costs enough!

John,
Great information!!! I assumed that a lot of the wide pattern was me, but didn't know if the way one's body reacts to recoil was built into the regulation. I will see what Butch says, and load some more. I will shoot some "bagged-out stable" targets at 50yds this weekend, and post results.
Thanks, ND

quote:

It damn sure costs enough!

Yes it does. You never know, all rifles are different and they may last much longer in yours.

ND,

Just a few more thoughts to what JPK has set down:
-- when you start getting the two barrels very close, not crossing with maybe some vertical stringing, then it's time to shoot three slowly from each barrel at 50 yards and see where they print.
-- Believe you are going to have to reduce that load maybe 6 grains to start with;
-- Use one of those dayglo orange 3-inch target stickies, and put that right on top of the bead at 50 with the bead down in the vee but with all the bead visible. Use the same sight picture for all six shots and see how each barrel groups and what composite group you get from both barrels. If I read your results so far correctly, you may have to unscrew or whatever your back sight and very slightly tap it over to the left 'cause it looks as if you may hold too far right. (I'm a lefty and had to do so with both my big bore and medium bore doubles.) But this refining on windage can wait until you get the load right and those barrels printing together.

Regards, Tim

Tim,
Thanks for the input...this will help. I need all this "first hand" advise to get my regulation running right. I agree that the sights will need adjusted to get my groups centered. I will get real steady this weekend, so I get more accurate targets. I'll bet I can hone it in Saturday.
Here is the response Butch gave me:

Dave,
The rifle you have was sold to a guy in Tx. in 06. Without any other info you are the third owner. As to the load info, you need to back the load to 103 or 104 grains. Try that and see if that doesn't take care of the crossing.
Take Care,Butch

Straight from the man!!! Can't beat that kind of service. Big Mo told me that the original owner passed away immediatly upon delivery of the gun and Butch took it back, then sold it to Big Mo. I have found that "gun guys" are some of the most honorable men on the planet...straight shooters!!!
I love this gun and am greatful to Big Mo for selling it to me. He is a good man!
Well, off to the bench, ND

Dave,

Tim Carney makes good points. Try Butch's 104 gr load first, so you can see the incremental improvement and then try the 103 load to see if it improves or doesn't. Too slow and the barrels will shoot apart, more distance between centers with the right on right, left on left.

Get the barrels shooting together before messing with the rear sight for windage adjustment. That way your dealing with only one variable at a time.

Like Tim, as a lefty, I had to drift my rear sight - but it doesn't take much. Does the rear sight have a witness mark or scribe - essentially a contiguous "scratch" on the sight base and the sight itself. Often there since a double is regulated in the white and then blacked (blued in American.) If so this will be your base line from which to drift the sight. Drifting is an inexact "science"! So only make small moves and see where your POI is moving.

Goos luck,

JPK

John,
You posted my plan exactly. I won't be able to shoot until maybe Thursday but Saturday for sure. Thanks for the detailed advise. You guys are a big help to keep me focused through the process.
Thanks, ND

ND,

Here are some pix from 7-1/2 years ago as I was regulating my 500/450. They appear in the DGJ Volume 14, Issue 1.

Key lessons: 1) use the six o'clock hold as I failed to do on all of them;
2) steady at the bench;
3) start at 50 yards.

REgards, Tim


Six o'clock hold 50 yds with 94grs IMR 4831 -- Not enough


Center Hold up to 97 grs at 50 yds; decent group and velocity is fine


Six o'clock with 99 grains. Barrels are crossing; reduce load


Center of bull hold. Six o'clock likely would have reduced the vertical stringing. A grain less might make a slightly better group, but I want velocity above 2,000 fps

Note need to drift back sight to the left.

Tim,
Great stuff here!!! Looks like mine are a bit hot. I loaded 104gr and 103gr IMR4831 last night. I'm taking my gun,bags,and targets to work with me tomorrow. If I get done early enough, I will stop by the range on the way home.
Thanks for the pictures, ND

My experience is not with a DR, but I have shot competitively at the National level, so take my comment as such.
When shooting from a rest or bags, I was always told to be sure to place my hand where it will be when shooting in the field. Has to do with recoil and pointing influence as the gun fires.
Best of luck.
Bob N.

quote:

Originally posted by Tebsinar:
My experience is not with a DR, but I have shot competitively at the National level, so take my comment as such.
When shooting from a rest or bags, I was always told to be sure to place my hand where it will be when shooting in the field. Has to do with recoil and pointing influence as the gun fires.
Best of luck.
Bob N.

Tebsinar,

This is critical when searching for the load that shoots to regulation in a double rifle, since the regulation of the double rifle takes into account the recoil of the rifle and so barrels rise.

If you were to lock a (SxS) double rifle barrel set into a vise, with the sights aimed at a target, you would find the right barrel pointing down and left and the left barrel pointing down and right from the target. Since a (SxS) double rifle's barrels are off center, the recoil isn't just upward. Each muzzle recoils in an arch, with the right barrel recoiling up and right and the left up and left.

Recoil doesn't change much when your load is within the realm of where it should be and you alter it up or down a bit. So the recoil induced arch remains largely the same. What changes relatively more significantly when you change loads up or down a bit is velocity, and so barrel time.

The art of finding a load that shoots to regulation is the art of managing a couple of variables at once. Recoil is one, but it isn't the primary variable. Velocity, and so barrel time, is the more important variable.

You have found your load when you have found the combination of recoil and velocity that has your bullets exiting their respective barrels at that moment in recoil when the centerline of the bores would be parrallel when fired one and then the other, and seperated by only the width of the center rib between the muzzles.

Once you have the barrels printing in that layed over figure eight, with the spread between POI's about equal to the spread between the barrels at the muzzle, makng elevation adjustments is a matter of replacing front sight blades. Making windage adjustments is a matter of drifting the rear sight.

Recall that if your load is close, but too fast, the barrels will print POI's that cross (right barrel printing left, left barrel printing right) indicating that the bullets left their respective barrels before the rifle had recoiled enough for each muzzle to have prgressed in its arch to the point that its bore is parrallel to the line of sight to the target. If your load is close, but the barrels print POI's that are spread (right shooting more than 1/2 the rib diameter to the right, left shooting more than 1/2 the rib diameter to the left) the load is too slow, leading to the bullets leaving their respective muzzles after that point in the arch caused by recoil where the barrels were parrallel to the line of sight.

BTW, this descibes a perfect load for a perfectly regulated double rifle, which is not an attainable result since double rifle regulation is not going to be perfect and there will be variations in velocity between even the best of lovingly assemebled ammo. Throw in the accuracy potential of each barrel and our own imperfection...

Some think 2" at 50yds makes a good shooting (SxS) rifle and load combo. I think 2" is pretty fair. Keep in mind that, measuring center to center, the perfect load has a built in spread of one bullet diameter (one half of the right bore, one half of the left bore) plus the width of the rib at the muzzles. So a 470NE has a perfect right and left group size of .474" plus the rib width at the muzzle, or nearing 1".

{As an aside, I prefer my big bore SxS rifle to shoot to one POI at 50yds, which is not theoreticaly perfect, but indicates a load that is slightly too fast and crossing at ~50yds. However, this is insignificant, and provides more than sufficient accuracy at 100yds or even 200yds, if I were to want or need it - certainly far better accuracy from a regulation point of view than I could ever shoot with open sights}

JPK

Congrats Dave, have a lot of fun with the new gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitrodave:
... Looks like mine are a bit hot. I loaded 104gr and 103gr IMR4831 last night. I'm taking my gun,bags,and targets to work with me tomorrow. If I get done early enough, I will stop by the range on the way home..., ND

ND,

Don't recall your mentioning whether you are regulating with solids or softs. If you plan to hunt elephant, strongly recommend you regulate with solids. Softs usually require about two grains of powder more than solids use so, whichever one you regulate with, load up four-six rounds of the other (down 2 grains if its softs you originally regulated with; up 2 grains if its solids you originally regulated with) to be sure they regulate, too.

Regards, Tim

John,
Another post with great information! I'm sure that I am not the only one getting smarter here.
Thanks!

David,
Good to here from you! PM me some hunting stories about the 450 Ackley. It already has several nice whitetails to it's credit.


Tim,
I am using Woodleigh softs right now. It will be a few years before I can go to Africa...but I will go!!! My second round of kids are still in school and my "current wife" likes to hunt, so my trip will be very expensive. I must clear my house of children first...then I will play till I die.
After I get this thing running smooth with the softs, I will work on the Woodleigh solids. Again...all this information from your experiences is very educational. This thread should help many new DR guys solve problems.
Thanks, ND

quote:

{As an aside, I prefer my big bore SxS rifle to shoot to one POI at 50yds,

JPK,

This makes the most sense, assuming one can see that well at 50 yds! Shooting the barrels one inch apart for infinity might be nice psychologically but makes little sense in a short range double rifle.

As long as my double is shooting within an inch or two at 25 yds. I really don't care whether they are crossing, doing back flips, or much of anything else!

Will,

You have low standards!

Doesn't mean I can brain an ele as well as you, but at least my rifle shoots better!

JPK

Here is my second try at the range. First picture is 104gr IMR831 and the second picture is 103gr IMR4831...same 500gr Woodleighs as the first targets with 106gr 4831.
Still crossing. Right barrel seems to be shooting higher than left...keep in mind that Left barrel shoots first (LH gun).
I was shooting off sand bags, standing with both hands resting on the bags. Felt stable!


Not sure what to do now? I could live with the first target if the right barrel was the left(first)shot. I am thinking of loading 101gr and 100gr next, to try to get the crossing stopped. Also have considered switching to H4831 to keep the cases full.
OK smart guys...let me have it!...

heh, i aint that smart..

got a chronograph?

Jeff,
I have access to a chronograph? I can't be too slow yet...am I? The 104 & 103 grains were Butch Searcy's loads.
Thanks,ND

Dave,

A chronograph is a huge help, if you can get access to one you should. In my experience, I've found a flat spot in powder performance where a particular powder might provede nearly the same velocity for several grains woth of variation.

Yes, try the slower loads, but with the same powder. Try the Hogdon powder too, but don't bank that it will perform the same, it amy or may not, my bet not.

I believe that H 4831 is an Extreme powder. Hogdon powder in the Extreme line is Aussie powder developed to be temperature insensative, which is good for cold weather use and also for the heat of Africa.

JPK

Dave:

A few observations.

quote:

I have access to a chronograph? I can't be too slow yet...am I? The 104 & 103 grains were Butch Searcy's loads.

What you need to know is what velocity it was regulated at. Regulation of doubles is velocity sensitive, that's why you've flying blind without a chronograph. Generally, velocity and bullet weight are the critical factors. Further, knowing that a gun was regulated with a specific charge of a given canister grade propellant is useful only as a guide. There's too much density variance between lots of the same powder to expect a specific charge to always regulate. What you need to do is to work up with IMR 4831 shooting over a chronograph until you reach the required velocity. That could be 103 grains with your current lot, and 108 with the next. I've had it change 5 grains between lots with an IMR powder - shooting both the old and new back to back from the same rifle over the same chrono on the same day, and that was with a medium bore!

Starting loads should be wide (not crossing) and POI of each barrel should come together as the charge is increased. Stop when they come together. Fire pairs, never multiple shots from one barrel, then multiple shots from the other. Crossing means too fast, wide means too slow.

quote:

Still crossing. Right barrel seems to be shooting higher than left...keep in mind that Left barrel shoots first (LH gun).
I was shooting off sand bags, standing with both hands resting on the bags. Felt stable!

Crossing and the second barrel pitching high can also be easily caused by an improper rest. The rest that you describe sounds like the kind that can do that.

Since the basics haven't been posted here for a while, here's a quick thumbnail. When a rifle fires, movement into the recoil arc begins as the bullet leaves the case and enters the throat, and continues as the bullet traverses the bore. It's in constant motion until the bullet exits - this is called "barrel time". With a single tube, this is no issue. With a double rifle, each barrel moves in a different arc during barrel time, so if the barrels are perfectly parallel, their respective POIs can't strike a common POA. "Regulation" of a new double rifle is the process of adjusting the POIs of each barrel to a common POA with a specific load - a specific bullet weight and velocity. Generally, if too fast, the bullet leaves the bore too early in the barrel's arc during barrel time, and the POIs cross. Too slow, and the bullet "rides" barrel time too long, and the barrels shoot wide. Finding that same velocity with a 500 grain Woodleigh from your rifle using IMR 4831 is what you're looking for.

None of the above will work right if you're not holding the rifle properly. Doubles are hunting rifles. They're regulated to be shot off hand in the field. If your rest doesn't permit the rifle, and you, to move in the same way during recoil as it would when firing off hand in the field then, assuming the rifle is well-regulated, you're asking it to do something it can't.

This is part of why a special standing rest is preferred, but is not universal. Purdey uses a sitting rest. IIRC, so does Chapuis. The point is, although more comfortable with the hard kickers, a standing rest isn't required. If you don't have a properly designed one available (you don't), forget standing. A conventional bench at your range will work fine, it just isn't done the same way as you're used to with single barrel rifles.

Stack the sandbags in front of you pretty high, so that you're sitting erect to the shot. Hold the rifle exactly as you would when shooting it off hand. Grip the barrels, not the fore-end, firmly with the forward hand. Rest the back of the forward hand on the sand bags. Rest your elbows on top of the bench (I put hand towels under them). Use no other rest. Do NOT put any support under the shooting (trigger) hand or the butt. No rest should touch the rifle. If it feels "stable", you're probably doing it wrong. That's why small groups with a double rifle can be a challenge.

With a bag under the butt or the shooting hand, all of mine have crossed slightly and pitched the left barrel (right handed rifles) high, about like what your targets show.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

400,
Your good!!! Busted me on the rear bag...Thanks!
I am using a standing rest, holding the barrels with back of my hand on the bag...sounds good so far.
I used a rear bag on the second set of targets (shoot-n-see's). Sounds like this was a mistake.
I will load some more today and try again.
Thanks for the help, Dave

ND,

Getting there. Suggest you drop to 99 grains and use a chrono for the next adventure. Check your loading density.

Your left barrel shots look as if you are pulling a bit, that left trigger finger of yours is twitching the barrels off to the right a tad, the usual flinch for us lefties. Again, goal is to have a consistent sight picture and squeeze.

You've got good advice from 400 Nitro and JPK. Let's see the next six.

Regards, Tim

quote:

Getting there. Suggest you drop to 99 grains and use a chrono for the next adventure. Check your loading density.

I agree. Get 'em slow enough to shoot a little wide, then work up to bring them together.

400,can you not accomplish the same thing with sticks as with a standing bench?

BAD day at the range!!! I am consistant though...consistantly bad! It's still shooting the same...crossing 4-8" with the right(2nd) shot higher than the left by 2". I'm not even going to post the targets, as they look like the rest...maybe a little worse. I shot 101gr IMR4831, then 100gr IMR4831, then 104gr H4831. All looked the same as the rest of them.
I'm starting to think that I am too solid on the rest with my front hand. I'm leaning in a little with a firm grip, holding the gun tight to my sholder. I picked up a shooting stick today. It's a single pole with a rubber lined "V" at the top...thought this might be more apt to react to recoil like off hand???

Tim,
I do have that normal "leftie flinch" you refer to if I am shooting off hand, so I,m sure that it is showing some even off the bag. I need to really focus on squeezing the trigger, though I don't think this why I am crossing. My sight picture looks good at the shot and is printing consistant.

Not sure what to do now...I'm really down after today. I am guessing I need to drop another few grains, but 102gr is the lightest load for IMR4831 in "Any shot you want" book...this makes me nervous. I'm wondering if I am the biggest problem??? The consistancy makes me think not??? I'm babbling now...can you tell my mental state is not good right now?
Thanks, ND

I'm writing Butch again to request a velocity.

Big Mo said that he could hit a 8" gong at 100yds off hand. He was using 106gr IMR4831 and 500 Woodleigh's. This was my first load?
Thanks, ND

ND,

First, chrono your lowest load so you have a firm fact in hand; confirm with Butch and ask him if you should try a 99 grain load;

Second, in the admittedly unlikely event that it's you, rather than the rifle, and as a cheap double check, suggest you find a friend/someone from the Board to join you at the range and both of you try a 99 grain load. If the barrels still do not shoot wide, left to left and right to right, but are crossing, then the rifle likely needs to be regulated.

Third, Give Butch another call after that experiment and see what he'll do. If that doesn't work or would cost too much, you can save shipping and insurance because Clinton is 124.5 miles from Enid and JJ Perodeau at Champlin arms can regulate for a few more than several hundred dollars. Believe 'tho that you'd want Butch to do it.

I share your frustration. My double in .303 British is with JJ Perodeau because I could not get it to regulate the 215 gr. bullet with any sensible charge of either IMR 4831, 4350 or 4895.

Regards, Tim