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None and zero. I've needed to wear eyeglasses my whole life and so cannot focus on 3 planes. I would need any DR to be equipped with a riflescope. I have looked at scope sighted doubles here and I just don't think they look...what's the word? Svelte? Kinda dorky. I value form as well as function. Also, you can buy a nice 2 barrel shotgun for $2k but not a rifle. The WOW factor for a DR is too pricey. I'd rather use the money for trophy fees. Hey, you asked. | |||
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There is still hope. The older I get the better my eyes are getting! Even with the front sight blurry, a rifle can still be shot pretty accurately, at fairly close ranges anyway. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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500NE,sidelocks,exposed hammers,very nice wood, no engraving and 5k or under. R. | |||
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Dave Strangely enough I have discovered the following. Take a well handling bolt rifle, and a well handling double, both with iron sights, then mount a scope on each of them, due to the "geometry" of the double rifle its handling is less effected by the scope than the bolt rifle. I have found that a properly scoped double rifle handles better than a properly scoped bolt rifle. Europoeans have been scoping 9,3x74R doubles for years so for most people a 9,3 with a scope is "acceptable". I have found a scoped double such a great hunting rifle that I scoped my British 450/400 3 1/4". After using it in Zim this Oct Nov, my wife used it too, I am now a firm believer that all 450/400, and 500/416's should be scoped. After all most people scope a 404/416 bolt rifle. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Will
True, you did not say DR's "sucked". And you are certainly under no obligation to provide any rationale for your belief that "there are few reasons to have a double rifle other than to play with". But, you have to admit that you are unequivocal in your statement. That, combined with other comments you have made on this forum could give people the impression that you have a less than glowing opinion regarding the use of double rifles for anytihng but play - i.e., they suck for hunting DG. They may not do it for you, but for me and many others here they work very well for hunting; better for a number of folks than bolt rifles. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Jim, i am of the OPINION that a double rifle is quite the necessity in a close range charge where the first shot fails to drop or turn the animal or in the case of two aninals charging where it could only be hoped that the two shots turn or drop the required number of critters. I have never faced a multiple animal charge and have no desire to do so. But I have faced a charge when the first shot didn't work and the ele kept on acomin'. Before I could get off the second shot my son-in-law shot and turned the elephant. I am a big chicken. With a double, there is nothing quite so assuring as having that second shot immediately available. But in a multiple animal charge I would rather bet the farm on a bolt for its sheer firepower. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Yes, throating variations could definitely have been present. Nothing seems to have been consistent. I can show you .450/.400 3" doubles from the SAME MAKER, made a year apart, one is .408" groove diameter, the other is .411". I've run into rifles from the same maker in the same caliber with very different throat dimensions. Yes, there were different forms of Cordite, but not that many. There were Cordite Mk 1, Cordite MD, Moddite, Axite, and Cordite SC. Moddite (Eley's version of flat strip) died with the roll-up into Explosives Trades Ltd in 1918, and Axite (Kynoch's flat strip) wasn't loaded in the larger bores after WWII. SC was a solventless naval artillery propellant developed after the battlecruiser's disasters with flash at Jutland, and was never used in small arms. Post-WWII, I believe Kynoch used only MD in the flanged nitros. No, I don't think it has anything to do with one being loaded with a different kind of Cordite from the other. Yes, I did check water capacity of both many years ago, but I don't remember what the numbers were now. The 3" is slightly larger. The length to shoulder of the 3" is .10" longer, and diameter at the shoulder is greater. The 3" has much less body taper than the 3 1/4". The result is that the 3 1/4" produces higher pressure with the same standard load. Modern CIP standards still reflect this - 2800 BAR for the 3" and 2950 BAR for the 3 1/4". I've pulled apart samples from several post-war batches of both cartridges. They all held right on 60 grains of Cordite. I've done quite a bit of the same myself and I think that what you may have encountered was a difference in caps. I never messed with the corrosive Kynoch caps, but their non-corrosive caps were not as hot as the RWS Berdan caps. Likewise, Federal 215 are hotter than the RWS. There's quite a difference between the Kynoch n/c and the RWS. ------------------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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2k 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Will, your experience level as a hunter has never been brought into question. Rather, the fact that you are an arrogant dick head. You are proof that all it takes to be an "experienced" tourist hunter is money. You have a nice day too, sir.. PS keep up your little one liners they do make you look like a long stem eye donor desperately in search of a purpose in life. | |||
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Buliwyf, My choice for a working double is Searcy. However just last week I missed a chance on an Army Navy 450/3.25 that was in ugly cosmetic shape but functionally very nice for $6500 USD. If you must have a British gun keep looking they are out there at "decent" prices from time to time. Also I believe that Searcy is making a slimmer round action gun at some time in the future. That might be a possibility as well. The .500 NE is a fine caliber for your intended purpose. Components for the .500 are generally very easy to come by. I do not know that you'll be able to find a rifle that 100% meets your requirements in a .500 NE. The .500 is definitely a step up from the .450-.470 class rifles where stopping power is concerned. Good luck. | |||
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An affordable Holland & Holland Royal in .500 Nitro Express would pretty much do it for me.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Will, Now I get it. Thanks  SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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What caliber would I want im not really sure. 450#2, 470, 577 dont really know. Will I own one in a few years probably. I think 2-3 grand would be plenty enough for any working double rifle. But are they WAY WAY WAY OVERPRICED heck yeah. Although within a few years even though they are overpriced I will have one because I want one. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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Lots of unrealistic expectations. From a historical perspective, entry level double rifles of decent quality have NEVER been as cheap as they are today. The Chapuis UGEX is a fantastic deal. You simply can't build one worth having for less money. Yet some still think entry level DRs are "WAY, WAY, WAY OVERPRICED". Some will never get it. -------------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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I fell into lust with the Heym PH in .470 at the DSC show, but my better judgment says that I should start out and hunt with a good, used Merkel (which also felt nice) in that $7500 price range. Of course, I don't always listen to my better judgment!  | |||
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DR Folks, I am enjoying and learning a lot from this thread. I do not own a DR yet...but I'm trying to educate myself on them. What would be a good caliber for a DG hunt with enough range for the occasional outstanding PG that you just can't pass up? I have used my .416 Rem Mag Rem. 700 KS on cape buff and handle the recoil fairly well. Thanks so much in advance. My future plans BTW are leopard/sable/and anything else I might could afford in the future. "In these days of mouth-foaming Disneyism......"--- Capstick Don't blame the hunters for what the poachers do!---me Benefactor Member NRA | |||
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400 NE, Is the Chapuis UGEX offered in .470 NE? | |||
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Kudu4u, The .500/416 NE sounds like the ticket for you. 400 grain, .416 caliber @ 2300 fps. | |||
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.450/400 NE for 1/2 price of a buffalo hunt | |||
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buliwyf... according to the catalogue that dale nygard sent, the 470 ne , 416 rigby, 300 win and 375 h&h are availble in AGEX Brousse, AGEX jungle, and AGEX Savanne, different grades, features... go big or go home ........ DSC-- Life Member NRA--Life member DRSS--9.3x74 r Chapuis | |||
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Yes double rifles are WAY WAY WAY OVERPRICED. and I stand by that statement as it is not Rocket Science to see it or figure it out. Not to get in a pissing match about how much double rifles are worth but it doesnt take much common sense to know they are overpriced. Will I buy one in a few years probably. You can buy new cars for not much more than that, that have a lot more metal and a heck of a lot more moving parts for about the same price. Heck for the price of some of the higher priced doubles you can build a new house and furnish it, heck in the area you can build a fairly big house for the price of some of the more expensive doubles. And then people sit there and try to tell me they are not overpriced what a croc of sh*t.  Do I think double rifles are pretty yes, do I want to hunt dangerous game in Africa with a double rifle yes, will I yes, or they overpriced heck yes. Is a double being overpriced going to stop me from buying one no. There are lots of things overpriced in this world though not just double rifles. No 90% of the expectations on this thread are not unrealtistic at all they are common sense and yes I get it perfectly. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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Jarrod: You are utterly clueless. -------------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Uh yeah I am. Oh wait let me guess market value, supply and demand, price them high so that the average Joe can't afford them bla bla bla. Oh yeah also let me guess I will get this speech about how many man hours it takes to build a double etc. etc. Whatever you want to say they are still WAY overpriced and anyone with half a brain could see it. But as I said before I still like them and I still plan to buy one. that being said there is no reason why there a working double rifle cannot be built for a heck of a lot less than what they are, no reason whatsoever. I am not going to argue this with you as it will be a useless argument. Let's argue about something else like which caliber we like best or what is the best rate of twist  400nitro have a good one. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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I'd guess the Blaser Co. is making DR's the cheapest way that it can be done for a big bore caliber. Ugly as can be. Multi decade reliability, who knows? I hope to buy a U.K. built vintage dbl rifle myself. History, character and just done right. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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When I was saying my WR in 3-1/4" gave obvious signs of less pressure than the Greener in 3", I was referring to the use of FACTORY Kynoch ammo in both guns. Why that was true, I can't say, but it was true. Again, I conjecture it may have been a result of the throating of the two different rifles by two different manufacturers. Here, of course, I am talking about working results in my two specific guns, not results in pressure barrels at the ammunition factories. Anyway, I still would NOT use 60 grains of the cordite I have on hand, in either of MY guns. Not often, not occasionally, not ever. Factory ammo, I couldn't control content back then, but my handloads, I sure can now, and do. If I had the time to go back and check my files, I believe there a couple of other kinds of cordite you may not have covered in your listing, but am not certain of that. Seems to me there were at least three different cordites used in the .303 British military rounds alone. Anyway, not worth the considerable trouble to do so at the moment, to be honest. Have too many other things to do. BTW, just for info on a slightly different tangent, I still have some Kynoch ammo loaded in the 60's which does not contain Cordite or other English propellant at all. It is clearly labelled "Assembled in England of Swedish components", using a "glue on" sticker on the outside of the very thin Kynoch brown paper wrapper around each 50 rounds (10 5-round boxes). My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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What would entice me to buy one right now is not even possible much less realistic. I couldn't even afford a Remington right now. In 4 days I'm leaving for training in preparation for Afghanistan in May. I'm hoping that I'll be able to save enough to get a Chapuis if I can find one in the 4-5K range (maybe another group buy in '08?). 9.3x74 will be the most likely choice since it doesn't seem very realistic to be able to find a 450/400, 450, or 470 in that price range. If I decide to reenlist while I'm in Afghanistan and take advantage of the generous, tax-free bonuses I may be able to get both (9.3 & 400, 450, or 470) if I can get the big bore for around 10K (or less). Or get the 9.3 and MAYBE go to Africa!!! They are expensive. I won't say overpriced but they certainly are expensive, especially when you can't afford one. I don't have a problem with paying the prices that they're going for if I had the expendable funds for one. The possibility of getting one for less than 2K is not very realistic from what I've seen in my research unless you get one of the Valmet/Tikka guns which I don't think are very pleasing aestetically. If someone could make a good SxS cheaper than Chapuis (which is the cheapest I've seen NEW) then they would certainly appeal to a lot of people. An exact lowest target price is hard to pin down IMO from MY perspective. The lower they're priced the more people they will appeal to. If someone can do it cheaper then by all means jump on it. Do the best you can and get them as low as possible and be happy with that. There will always be those that will complain that they're too expensive. You could give it to 'em for free and there would still be someone that would complain. It's all very relative. If one can afford to pay 15-20K then something in the 10K range is a bargain. But for the rest of us it's just something to dream about. | |||
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Bloodnativ, take care in Afganistan .  No sleeping in class before you shipout. Thank you for your service,  Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Ditto Keith!!!!! 577NitroExpress Double Rifle Shooters Society Francotte .470 Nitro Express  If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming... | |||
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So Jarrod, How much did you pay for your last custom bolt action rifle? Ever price a new Square Bridge Mauser action? Doubles too expensive?. . . .Oh, Please! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Jarrod, if the price is the only thing different between a good bolt rifle, and a double rifle, and the price is not justified, then there must be a large profit being made on double rifles! That said, and since the price should be no more than a RemChester bolt rifle, how come Remington, winchester, and savage are not makeing double rifles by the carload for shipment to Wall-Mart, and K-Mart? Rather than bother you for the answer, I'll simply tell you the reason they are not, and that is because there aren't a dozen people in the USA firearms industry who have the skill to build a double rifle that would be worth owning. Hell, they can't even build a simple bolt rifle that doesn't need to be sent back to the factory a dozen times before it's right!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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All of you please pay a little closer attention to my posts. I said that in a few years I WILL buy a double rifle. That still doesn't mean they are not overpriced. A lot of custom bolt rifles are way overpriced also. Just because someone will pay a certain price for something does not mean it is not technically overpriced. The only place that doubles are actually really needed are in charge situations in Africa aganinst Elephants etc. but even then they are not truly needed as thousands of charges have been stopped successfully with a bolt rifle. A double for the most part is like a Harley they are mostly just a novelty item, a status symbol so to speak. Harley's are not needed, expensive multi-million dollar paintings are not needed, yacht's are not needed, house boats are not needed, 100,000 dollar cars are not needed. I guarantee you if people would refuse to pay it the price of double rifles would be a lot less than they are now. Just because a custom gunmaker charges you 10 grand for a reworked model 70 does not make it worth it value wise, same goes for a double, or a half million dollar painting or whatever, but it doesn't make it technically worth it as far as what you are getting for your money. All it means is someone has the money and will buy it. Now please read my post a little closer. I SAID THAT I STILL PLANNED ON BUYING ONE IN A FEW YEARS REGARDLESS. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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No I NEVER said that they shouldn't cost more than a remchester, savage, tikka or __________ insert name should cost. But as much more as they do cost they should not period. You know it's funny very very few people I know ever have any of the problems that everyone seems to mention on these forums with the run of the mill Model 70's, remchesters etc. etc. Of course im sure a lot of that is due in part to most people sensible people don't complain if their rifle doesn't have any problems it is they bad you hear about on places like this. I've heard plenty of issues with double rifles on this forum alone. As far as their not being that many skilled workers that could make a double rifle. That is hog wash as they could be taught just like any other skill or trade. It is just simply not the dream of most people when they grow up to be a skilled double rifle maker. Most of them want to own a business, or sell real estate, or be a mechanic, or work for some big corporation, or play pro sports or whatever. Go out here to high schools or colleges or just where people that age hang out and ask them what their dreams are. I would bet very few of them will say I want to be a skilled double rifle maker. Most of them wouldn't know the difference by looking in double rifle and a double barrel shotgun. But if enough people wanted to be double rifle builders people could be taught, like they have been for generations for those that do build them. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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I want one, like everyone else. That does NOT mean that they aren't horribly overpriced for what you get. Explain, if you will, why any DR with basic engraving and decent wood costs over $10K, and the answer is because there is this thing called "Snob Appeal" and too many people like to let the rest of the population know how much money they have to spend on toys. Everyone will know, instantly, that you are a serious horse's ass if you carry around a Halliburton briefcase with $100,000 in cash in it. Pack a quality DR around in a hardcase...now that's taste and style. Owning a DR puts you waaaay out front in the "Dick Measuring Contest", as does driving a Ferrari. It's about money and being ostentatious in your displays of wealth in lieu of tasteful. It's ALL about money and a substitute for Viagra. These are the same type of guy that pays somebody to build him a custom Harley, with a 40' motorhome and 24' travel trailer..all painted in matching swoopy designs, so he can trailer to within 50 miles of Sturgis and then ride the last 45 minutes in while woofing about the adventure of the open road. You can pick him out of the crowd...he's got the old lady twenty years his junior with silicone tits. Status man, and the pursuit of it. Rich DRSS | |||
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Thanks Rich! Well said.  Packy | |||
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Jarrod, Yes, I read your posts. Yes, I understand you plan to buy a double some day. I just think that the statement of double rifles being "over priced" not the case at all. Yes they cost more. As I have said before, the nice thing about double rifles is that they come RTS (Ready To Shoot). You don't need to spend a lot of money and time to trick one out! Considering this and the time and craftmanship it takes to put one together, I think they are within reason. Or to say, not over priced! Just my opine! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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But the fact is, they haven't been tought, and there are few here who could teach them!
And it is the same in areas where double rifles are made. The diference is, there you have a history in double rifle makeing, that is 300 yrs old, and hand made rifle makeing is a respected trade!
You are correct in this instance, because you can go to most high schools in the USA,and there wouldn't be 10% of the studants that knows one end of a rifle from the other, and the ones that do know a little, they got their knowledge from Gangster movies, with AK47s as the only rifle they recognize, and they think the proper way to hold a pistol is side ways.
My point exactly! The fact is the trade is tought by a father to his son, in a family apprenticeship, from a very young age. In the USA, even well known gun makers do not understand the process, and the best machinest in the world doesn't necessarily have the skill to build a good working double rifle, that is a fact, not an opinion. Stop and think, if the double rifle could be made intirely on a machine, which it can't, think what they would cost then at the cost of machine time, at the skilled labor costs in the USA! Jerrod, you seem to have more than a modicom of intelegence, but that doesn't help you here, for you evidently do not understand the process any better than the high school kids you use as an example of the knowledge of firearms in the USA! I'm afraid the Disneyfacation, and pusification of our youth started 50 yrs ago,with DR, Spock, and that translates to 50, and 60 yr old people, today, who have no clue! So, how are they to teach the up, and coming, especially since they themselves have been tought that firearms are something to be avoided, by the teachers, and the "know nothing" media! Admittedly, the dressed up doubles, and those with big time names, are over priced, and those are the ones people buy simply for the snobb factor, but the working doubles are not over priced,, and if made in the USA would cost at least 1/3 more, simply because of the cost of the rare skilled labor involved! The double rifle is the only new rifle you can buy that is worth more ten yrs down the road than when you bought it new! Be well! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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NE 450, No.2: This is a "fun" question that we all can answer as if we would be setting out tomorrow. (In my case, I hope that's true because I'm really too old to want to face charging DG!)  Let me dispose of the "price" question quickly. I really don't think it enters into the discussion (barring, of course, exquisite scroll work and a price above $150,000 {US} and in that event the rifle belongs in a display or a museum) The caliber I believe I would use would be a 470 NE. I had the pleasant experience of shooting my PH's 470 double about a dozen times (at paper I hasten to say) and was astonished at how well I could handle the rifle. I could even imagine myself shooting at a charging elephant with it. (No, I never had the experience) What I'm trying to say in a longwinded fashion is that I felt as confident with it as with my 375 H&H. Like the 375 I never felt a "kick" but rather a "push". Sure, it was a real "push" but it didn't jolt my back teeth - like a 7mm Rem. Mag did to me once on a range. I knew then that I could fire that second shot from a 470 NE in a bad situation -and isn't that what we are talking about? | |||
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With a post like that, and you are calling someone else a SNOB!  One other thing, HARLEY DAVIDSON, and DOUBLE RIFLE don't belong in the same post, or even in the same web site. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Buliwyf and Mouse93 thanks for your replies to my question on recommended DR caliber. I will study the .500/416 NE and .450/400 NE closely. "In these days of mouth-foaming Disneyism......"--- Capstick Don't blame the hunters for what the poachers do!---me Benefactor Member NRA | |||
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This is a common thought expressed by those that love the old doubles. I've long wondered how much of that thought process was a way to justify the romance of a classic old gun that would be hard to duplicate by a new gun just out of a box. Nevertheless, my question remains, is there really a difference in the feel and fit of an older gun vs the newer designs? Does a new H&H feel different than an old one or are we just comparing a Searcy/Chapuis style with something English? Are the newer guns bulkier because of today's legal environment or are we comparing more affordable new guns with sleeker designs from a century ago? Aren't some of the newer guns still made using the slim designs of yesteryear? | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Question for non double rifle owners
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