Question:
What calibre and what price would entice you to buy a double rifle?

At this point with my limited knowledge and experience, I would chose the standard Merkel in 9.3. I want to attend another meeting or 2 before making a decision. I also enjoyed shooting Bill74's Merkel in 470. It was very accurate and recoil was not bad.

I was enticed by the Chapuis group buy prices but would have much rather had a 375 flanged instead of the 9.3 that I ordered. I also would have been fine spending more money but am not patient and didn't like the one year or more wait.

Mississipian

That is exactly why a person thinking about getting a double rifle should attend a DRSS hunt/shoot.
There are very few places where a person can shoot so many different double rifles.

Let me add it was a pleasure to meet, shoot, and hunt with you.

You are truely a Southern Gentleman.

Dennios
I think you will find, with field experience that the 9,3x74R, with the proper bullets will be very satisfactory for you as a medium nbore double.

I think it is the best of all double rifle calibres under .40 cal.

I have used mine quite a bit.

Since at my age the idea of pursuing dangerous game is no longer feasible, I would be interested in calibers up to 375 H&H, with more interest in the smaller ones. Right now, I think an 8X75RS would be nice......

quote:

Originally posted by DennisHP:
I was enticed by the Chapuis group buy prices but would have much rather had a 375 flanged instead of the 9.3 that I ordered.

Same story here. I would of rather had the 375 flanged simply because I have a huge supply of bullets for this caliber. If any .30 caliber rimmed cartridge and brass were easy to find in the USA it would of been a close second choice.
The main reason I chose the Chapuis was because of the "group buy" purchase price. I never heard anyone speak badly about there design or accuracy. For $4,200 and change it makes purchasing one in reach of the average hunter. And I do intend to hunt with mine as much as possible.

quote:

Let me add it was a pleasure to meet, shoot, and hunt with you.

You are truely a Southern Gentleman.

Thank you for the kind words! I am looking forward to future DRSS meetings with you as well as other members!

A 450-400J would be at the top of my wish list. To bad there are not any in the 6k range. So, that means a 9.3x74R Chapuis.

Keith

Honestly, I entertained getting a double but two things turned me off -

1. From what I could tell, you could buy a real lemon and not know it for awhile. Even the big name guns can be lemons. I just did not feel I could trust the seller enough with the limited knowledge I have. By the way, the seller was a very well known double rifle dealer from my state. Basically, if the gun was not a Rigby for $50,000, then I was not worth messing with.

2. The calibers are confusing, but I would likely go with a .470 NE or one of the "40's".

Oh well, I will stick with my bolt guns.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Honestly, I entertained getting a double but two things turned me off -

1. From what I could tell, you could buy a real lemon and not know it for awhile. Even the big name guns can be lemons. I just did not feel I could trust the seller enough with the limited knowledge I have. By the way, the seller was a very well known double rifle dealer from my state. Basically, if the gun was not a Rigby for $50,000, then I was not worth messing with.

2. The calibers are confusing, but I would likely go with a .470 NE or one of the "40's".

Oh well, I will stick with my bolt guns.

Some cars are lemons too. Do you walk instead?

Bolt rifles that are lemons are much more common than doubles that are, which is part of the reason I quit bolt rifles.

Like anything else, there's no substitute for educating yourself before you jump. The calibers aren't confusing. You just have to do a little reading, and talk to people with experience with them.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

At this point in my life the 8x57jrs I just purchased for $4000 hit both the caliber and price dead on target. Buying a new Double to me is safer than buying a new bolt gun as far as the reliability and accurracy go due mostly to the hand work required to regulate the double. The only thing now is to come up with economical scope mounts for them. I feel there are several O/U configuration doubles available for a reasonable price chambered for medium bore cartridges. I feel for American hunters to become double users there would have to be a better selection of RIMMED calibers available. There is really nothing wrong with calibers such as 30/40Krag,303British,348Win,405Win to name 4 such calibers that are currently loaded by the factory and with heavy for caliber regulation would be perfectly capable of performing well on game of the plains variety. O/U configuration would probably be more popular with the American hunter than SxS in my opinion. They seem to be able to produce an O/U for less than an equivalent SxS, and that seems to be the prime American requirement for a popular gun, reasonable price.

Considering what you would pay for a custom bolt rifle with all the bells and whistles, you aren't talking that much more for a Chapuis 9.3X74R. A little more will get you an Evolution Rifle converted to 450/400 3 inch.

I dont' know what the new Heym 450/400 will cost but I'm sure it's in the same price range as Butch's rifles.

Doubles come (RTS) Ready To Shoot! They are lots of fun and the guys that I know who like to shoot them are grand bunch of fellows.

In my dream world, it would be a dangerous game caliber for $5000.

I’m really dreaming here, but a, well built, “Plain Jane†field gun around $2500 (US), or $3500 - $4000 (US), with a second set of barrels, would certainly get my attention.

.375 H&H Mag or .416 Rigby
and a second set of barrels in either
.458 Lott or .470 NE
(with my preferences being the .375 and .458)

i got in on the chapuis group buy in a plain case-colored extractor model 9.3....for around $4400 with scope rings and bases...for the time being it'll be a helluva ground squirrel gun...in the next couple of yrs, i'll find a merkel, heym or searcy in 470ne or 500ne...something for $7k to $15k...i missed going to the DRSS shoot, and didn't get to see and shoot all the rifles i wanted to see, i'll make the next 1....

I think part of it is a lack of easily available ammo -- now, a handy little 405 or 45/70 is tempting -- I think I'll buy a Chapuis 9.3x74, but I need to get back home to get measured, and I see one in person.

I don't fit the non-owners group at this time. But I had to borrow to get this Valmet. It was the most economical gun I could find with shotgun barrels available. I also had a hard time with the advice to sell some of my current squeezes. I have been involved in "seller's remorse" in the past. I can't bring myself to do it again. So the dollar amount was around but under $2000 with scope mounts and case. Packy

Deliver a pair to the front door for under $12K.
One in 9,3x74R with 26" barrels; there is not really enough difference between it and the 375 flanged to live on.
The second one in .500NE 3" with 22" barrels.
Both with extractors.

That sets me good to hunt the world...
I like what I have seen from Chapuis, get a group buy together for consecutively numbered sets, and delivery in less than 18 months...guaranteed...and I start selling boltguns in about 15 minutes!
Serious as a heart attack or a registered letter from the IRS!!!

Rich
DRSS

technically I'm not an owner yet as I've ordered but not taken delivery. I'm posting though to give you my thought process. I had always discounted buying a DR due to price. I'm obviously a lefty and when the time came to purchase a real DG rifle in large caliber I came face to face with the fact that it was going to cost $7k no matter who I had build it (in order to do it right). My perception of value was that I'd rather spend $10-14K on a good DR than $7k on a bolt gun. Did I like the fact that my Heym is going to cost $14K + ? No but I believe it's worth $14K more than a bolt is worth $7k. And yes, the Chapuis is very popular and less money but if I'm going to spend $7 +, I may as well get exactly what I want, right?

2-3k
24" barrels
9.5#
470 or 450(don't care which)
made to my LOP (and perhaps I supply the wood)
NO ENGRAVING - none- zero, nada (no value add)
extractors
articulated triggers

cut for NECG front inserts (masterpiece would be better) and ONE standing rear, that can be swapped out for a peep.

jeffe

I too was enticed by the $4000 Chapuis 9.3x74R. In reality it will be a long time before I get to Africa and my non Africa hunts will always greatly out number my African ones. Deer, Moose, Bear, hogs etc will fall to this new beauty. Hunting here in the Northeast is always thick and shots are rarely long making the compact double rifle ideal

This is a toughie for me because of my past....

I used to buy double rifles at auction in England for $300 and LESS (2nd half of the '60s and the very early '70s). They were, amongst others, Greener, H&H, WR, C&H, Simson(of Suhl), Tolley, Rodda, Manton, and many others. So, needless to say, I haven't been able to bring myself to pay the sums asked these days.

I know they are good rifles and for some specific circumstances, the ONLY truly desirable choice IMO. But those specific circumstances run maybe 2% of the time for almost all of us.

So, I guess if I was going to buy a double today, it would have to be a plain-jane SxS, with two triggers, extractors rather than ejectors, top OR bottom lever, clipped fences, unfiled fixed rear sight, 1/8th-inch ivory-coloured front bead, AND COST less THAN $5,000 by at least $100 (just to mollify my wallet).

Caliber? Any of the following, in this order:

1.- .450/.400 3-1/4" (I know, I know, everyone wants the 3"case. Except me...larger capacity means same ballistics at less pressure IF the correct powder is used.)

2.- 9,3x74-R

3.- .450 Nitro(I prefer the .470 but if I can only have one, then I need something a bit more "all-around" than the .470. Besides, if I was gonna go that big, I'd throw in another couple of G's and opt for a .500 Nitro.)

4. - .375 H&H Flanged.


I know it's never gonna happen, but that's what it would take for me. Since I sold all but one of my doubles clear back in the late '70s and haven't been gored or eaten yet, I know there are a lot of good used bolt guns out there at significantly less dinero that a guy can do just fine with.

Anyway, I guess I will continue to opt out of the market, since as said above, this ain't likely to happen in what's left of MY lifetime.

A DG rimmed caliber for under $2000. But it ain't going to happen.

Hello,
$2500.00 and in a round for deer,bear and hogs. Needs to be cheap to shoot. I do not need to be beat to death with recoil on those three.
John

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

Oh well, I will stick with my bolt guns.

Regret not. There are few reasons to have a double other than to play with.

Bring on the hate mail!

The only one that I ever coveted was a lithe little thing in 30-40. It had 28" barrels and I doubt that it weighed 6 pounds. I could have had it for $1200. The p-dogs would have been stunned by the speed of the second shot . I should have never let it get away. Oh well; like my favorite comedian Ron White says, "ya can't fix stupid"

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
1.- .450/.400 3-1/4" (I know, I know, everyone wants the 3"case. Except me...larger capacity means same ballistics at less pressure IF the correct powder is used)

Nope. Both were loaded with the same load - 60 grains Cordite and a 400 grain bullet. This resulted in 2125 fps at 16 tons for the 3" and 2150 fps at 16.5 tons for the 3 1/4". The same charge produces less pressure and velocity from the 3" - because the 3" case has MORE capacity than the 3 1/4" case.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Tony,

If it fits me I'll take your 450/400 3 1/4 [I'd wish it was

the 3" Jeffery] with 1.25x4 scope in claw mount. I'll pay

into the mid teens depending on condition. I've been saving

money and I am driven now to find a nice rifle. Engraving and

pretty wood are nothing to me. I want a durable well built

rifle in nice shape.

None, but if you want to give one to me I'll sell it to pay for a hunt.
Just P.M. me with details.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Regret not. There are few reasons to have a double other than to play with.

Bring on the hate mail!

Will, haven't you figured out that your irrelevant nasty little pot shots that you are so fond of do nothing except maybe, provide you with a faint electrical sensation in your nether regions, that you seem to be incapable of by the "normal" avenues now days.

Haven't you figured out that we're all on the same side? Go get your thrills on an anti hunting web sight somewhere. This shit is getting old, AGAIN!!

Your crap is starting to remind me of another frustrated inept old man on this sight who is no longer posting here.

I usually ignore you and 500 grains for obvious reasons.

I'm not sure what your problems are, other than possibly jealousy. I don't know and really don't care, except you are so predictable.

And bring nothing to the table in your incessant rants against me. It is quite humorous. It is akin to a first year law student telling Justice Scalia how to do his job.

Have a nice day.

.470NE for less then $2,500 as a brand new rifle and I would go ahead and get one probably.

Surestrike:

Yep. Seems our resident novelist has been in that phase for quite some time.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

Oh well, I will stick with my bolt guns.

Regret not. There are few reasons to have a double other than to play with.

Bring on the hate mail!

Gentlemen, I fail to see what in Will's post has evryone so upset! Lord knows, I would gladly trade every other rifle, and shotgun I have for half that many double rifles, but as he says, there really is no solid reason I need more than one, so I think he is almost totally right! There is little reason to have more than one double rifle, other than to play with.

IMO, his "one liners" are the result of spending about five years writing his book, and figures he's about said all he needs to say, with more than a few words! Nothing wrong with a man of few words, I could take a lesson from him,but I'm not the only one, I think!

Mac,

Will is not saying you don't need more than one - he is saying double rifles are not necessary at all - there is no reason to even own one.

What gets people going is having someone, anyone, coming onto a double rifle forum and trashing double rifles.

I have not seen Will go onto any other forum and trash the subject matter there. On any other site, Will would be labeled a troll.

He seems to have some particular dislike for double rifles, but that is his problem. HE has yet to offer any coherent or logical reason to support his comments, probably because they would be shot down in a heartbeat.

If he would go on the big bore forum and start trashing big bores, he would be tarred and feathered in a nano second. If he does not like doubles, he can stay away from the double forum - if you don't like a TV show, change the channel. The only reason that someone would post negative comments about double rifles on this forum is to stir up some crap.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a man of few words-if those few words are words of wisdom and impart some intelligent value. His few words on this forum, "double rifles suck", only serve the purpose of conveying the message that those who love double rifles, when there is no reason to have one, are morons.

And I am one of those who find his comments, few words they may be, objectionable. And the condescending nature of his posts here implies that he is the pinnacle of knowledge, demonstrating a total lack of any class whatsoever.

It's fine to have an opinion - but you can express an opinion without being a troll.

It is my opinion that most hunters and shooters are constantly experimenting. We try different brands of rifles, scopes, loads, bullets etc to find what is perfect. Then we turn around and sell what we worked so hard on so we can do it all over again. For most of us it is a natural progression to migrate to more expensive weapons and hopefully a similar improvement in quality. We learn as we go and we keep ourself entertained learning new things. A double rifle is probably on the wish list of most serious hunters. If nothing else, just for the wow factor of shooting it at the range.
I plan on carrying my Chapuis on a blacktail deer hunt on Kodiak Island where the weather is terrible and I am going to love every minute of it.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
1.- .450/.400 3-1/4" (I know, I know, everyone wants the 3"case. Except me...larger capacity means same ballistics at less pressure IF the correct powder is used)

Nope. Both were loaded with the same load - 60 grains Cordite and a 400 grain bullet. This resulted in 2125 fps at 16 tons for the 3" and 2150 fps at 16.5 tons for the 3 1/4". The same charge produces less pressure and velocity from the 3" - because the 3" case has MORE capacity than the 3 1/4" case.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

You may well be correct on the capacity issue. I am writing from memory and it has been just over 30 years since I sold the last of my .450/.400s. I DO know that my .450/400 3-1/4" WR gave every sign of less pressure than my 3" Greener did and, for me, was a much better working gun. As they were of different makes, perhaps that was because the Westley Richards was a better quality gun than the Greener, I don't know for sure about that.

It is also possible some other variations came into play. Just as there were many differnt actual bore sizes in both the .404 Jeffery and the .470 Nitro, there may have been some chamber issues, such as throating, which came into play when firing pressures were the concern.

Whether Kynoch put the same weight of cordite in each one MIGHT not be a thoroughly reliable indicator of case capacity. There is also the question of WHICH cordite was loaded in each. Saying a cartridge is loaded with cordite is a lot like saying one is loaded with "stick" powder. That may be true, but what is the energy content and burning speed of the cordite with which it is loaded? There were many different formulations of cordite, just as there are in stick powders.

Not saying that is the case in the instance you cite, but it could be. Just out of curiosity, have you ever actually measured the content of the two cases, taken from the same time frame of manufacture, using either water or a ball powder? (Some of the early 3-1/4" cases were quite thin; I don't know if any of the early 3" ones were too, or not.) If you have, what did you find? (Would like to add the info to my files.)

Anyway, as I'm sure you are aware, what is commonly referred to as Cordite was a "cord" type powder, made primarily of what we'd call nitro-glycerine, nitro-cellulose, and vaseline. The nitro-glycerine content reportedly ranged from 60% or slightly more by weight in very early cordite, to less than 20% in some of the later versions. The cordites with less nitro-glycerine were often trade-named by such monikers as Axite, Modite, etc., but they were also still called Cordite by most.


I've actually used quite a bit of Cordite in my reloading of various English big bores, and still have some. I got mine from pulling down a case of Kynoch .416 Rigby ammo which had over time developed season splits in the necks.

I sure wouldn't use 60 grains of MY cordite from the Rigby cartridges in either length of .450/.400. My max would be about 55 grains. I tried 60 grains weight of it, and it was TOO HOT for my rifles. I guess I should really say for my BRASS...didn't harm the rifles, but was rough as a cob on brass.

Doesn't matter much in the long run, but for me, based on my previous experiences with the two rounds, I'd still opt for a .450/.400 3-1/4" as my first choice if I was going to buy a new economy double rifle. My experience was more pleasant with it than with the 3".

Obviously, that is just my preference. Everyone else is assuredly welcome to their own.

450 No.2,

Excellent topic.

1. Quality brass is my sensitive point. My vision of a double is that of a close range stopping rifle. Therefore, I would prefer a .500 Nitro because it is the same frame size as .470 Nitro. However, I am concerned about quality brass avalibilty for the .500 NE.

2. I am concerned about rim thickness consistency and impact on handloading, so I like the .450 NE No.2 because of it's .080" rim thickness, which I believe to be the thickest of the NE's. However, I am concerened about quality brass availability for the .450 No.2.

3. I would prefer not to have a double chambered in a bolt action cartridge, but maybe I should re-consider this point? i.e. .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 Win Mag.

4. The .470 Nitro has Norma backstopping the brass which leads me to believe the .470 is my best bet.

5. I prefer the feel and balance of the pre-war British. I appreciate the modern doubles, probably more accurate than pre-war, but I am a rifleman that values balance.

6. I don't want to create a problem for myself trying to assemble components and accuracy problems just to own a double.

7. Would prefer not to scope a double but might need to so unsure about mounting challenges?

8. The rifle must be a "working" rifle. I want to use it in the bush.

Any feedback appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
His few words on this forum, "double rifles suck", only serve the purpose of conveying the message that those who love double rifles, when there is no reason to have one, are morons.

When did I say double rifles suck? I was only trying to console Dogcat that if he can't afford a double rilfe it is no reason to commit suicide.

Hell, I own a double rifle. IMO, though, it is not the end all for hunting dangerous game. There are circumsatnces where it is needed and circumstances where it is to be avoided.

But just my opinion. You don't have to justify double rifles to me. Nor do I have to justify what I believe are limitations to you. You are so sensitive!