What is the best light double rifle cartridge for North American big game.

Parameters:

Cartridge must be rimmed or flanged

Cartridge must be available in factory loaded ammo

Target species include deer, black bear, elk, feral hogs. Assumption is made that if stalked within a reasonable range the rifle would also be fine for antelope, sheep, and goats.

Exotics in Texas may be on the target list but African dangerous game is not

The rifle will not be used for brown, grizzly, or polar bears

Action is not suitable for the higher pressure cartridges like 7x65R and .303 British - desire to stay well below 50,000psi CIP (piezo)

Bore diameter will be .429 or smaller, therefore .45-70 is out

Question:
Using the parameters above, which lower pressure cartridge would you choose for a light double rifle for North American big game? After you choose a cartridge I would like to hear what bullet weight you would suggest the rifle be regulated for.

Choices:
25-35 (6.5x52R
7x30 Waters
.30-30
.32-40
.357 Max (will shoot .357 Mag)
.38-55
.405 Win
.44 Rem Mag
Other - Please specify and explain

 

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Since elk are on your list of target species, I would choose the .405 Win or 444 Marlin, possibly the .348 Win. They exceed your pressure limit, but the .375 Win and .356 Win would be a fine choice as well.

Where is the 9.3X74R? That is the obvious choice that fits your parameters.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Where is the 9.3X74R? That is the obvious choice that fits your parameters.

The pressure for the 9.3x74R is too high, "desire to stay well below 50,000psi CIP (piezo)". 9.3x72R would be okay but a little hard to find ammo for.

I don't know the pressures a 30-40 Krag is loaded to, but I love the cartridge. My first centerfire!

What action are you using for this DR? Some 9.3 loads are well below 40k psi (W760 gives very low pressures and good velocities) and most all are below 50k psi. More important is your firing pin diameters. 405 wcf is a nice caliber and is below your limit. So is 8x57r and I am thinking about that one and ammo is readily avaialble. 375jdj, or 38-56 hot loaded would be good rounds too. You will need to hand-load.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I don't know the pressures 30-40 Krag is loaded to, but I love the cartridge. My first centerfire!

47,000 piezo - CIP. Can you still get factory ammo?

What's wrong with a 45-70; you can get some nice power at very low pressures. Your possibilities will open up if you hand load. Yes, .303 is readily available; saw plenty at the gun show today.

quote:

Can you still get factory ammo?

Both Winchester and Remington still load 30-40 Krag factory ammunition. Might be others as well.

Being as you put elk on the nemu, the 405 is really the prime choice for what you have listed.
It's really not all that far behind a 450/400NE, but, has to work at a bit higher pressure to get to that level. And, it's no speed demon. 300gr tsx should work well in it, or 300gr cast bullets. I'd be more inclined to use a 30-40Krag or 30R Blaser case and power it down a bit to use 170grFN Partitions, the 30r is essentially derating a rimmed 30-06. You may be able to find a happier medium with that type of setup.

I would consider the 7x65R like having a 280 to 30-06 ballistics in a rimmed case which IMO is the ultimate North American caliber that is a rimmed case for a DR.

7x57R

The 9,3X74R is perfect. Alphin's "Any Shot You Want" shows all loads under 45,000.

Okay, so you can get a better idea of where I am coming from, here is what I am looking at. These are CIP standards measured with the piezo method. I used CIP piezo because it was the only pressure standard that I could find for ALL of them and I wanted to use the same measure for a comparison. The rifle is to be light in weight and the very long .30 FL will made the rifle weigh too much. The various x57mm cartridges and the 9.3x74R are too close to my pressure limit. An exception here is the 7x30 Waters because it is a short and very narrow cartridge.

****** Desireable Pressure *******
34k psi - piezo: .32-40
35k psi - piezo: .38-55
36k psi - piezo: 6.5x52R
36k psi - piezo: .405 WCF
41k psi - piezo: .44 Rem Mag
44k psi - piezo: .25-35
44k psi - piezo: .357 Mag
45k psi - piezo: .357 Max
46k psi - piezo: .30-30
46k psi - piezo: .30 Fl.Mag. (Not suitable because it is a very long cartridge)

****** Marginal Pressure ******
48k psi - piezo: 6.5x57R
48k psi - piezo: 8x57 JRS
49k psi - piezo: 7-30 Waters (suitable because it is a short narrow cartridge)
49k psi - piezo: 7x57R
49k psi - piezo: 9.3x74R

****** Undesireable Pressure ******
51k psi - piezo: .444 Marlin
53k psi - piezo: .303 Brit
55k psi - piezo: 7x65R
57k psi - piezo: 7.62x54R
59k psi - piezo: .30 R Blaser

How much easier will it be to find 7-30 Waters factory ammo than the 9.3X74R?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
How much easier will it be to find 7-30 Waters factory ammo than the 9.3X74R?

There are several more factory offerings available for the 9.3x74R then there are for the 7x30.

Perhaps I am missing something but what does the length of the cartridge have to do with pressure or rifle weight? Your action face does not know the difference in ammo length, or in the chamber pressure; only in the axial pressure exerted on it. It would help me help you if you would explain what it is that you are doing; ie, which action are you using, etc. There is more to consider than raw chamber pressure, although that is certainly important. As I alluded above, in my current 9.3 build, I am using loads giving only 33000 psi, wanting to stay as far below 40kpsi as I could. And I still get a 286 grain bullet above 2200fps. Some of the low pressure choices will be anemic for elk. Why not 45-70? Good power at low pressures.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
How much easier will it be to find 7-30 Waters factory ammo than the 9.3X74R?

There are several more factory offerings available for the 9.3x74R then there are for the 7x30.

My point exactly. You stated as one of you objections to my earlier post, that the 9.3X74R might be hard to find in factory ammo as well as the pressure being too high. But you have the 7-30 Waters listed in Green (assume those most closely meet your criteria). The pressures between the 9.3 and 7-30 are identical per your data and the 9.3 is easier to find factory ammo for, so ... why is it again that the 9.3 is less favorable to your criteria than the 7-30 Waters?

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
How much easier will it be to find 7-30 Waters factory ammo than the 9.3X74R?

There are several more factory offerings available for the 9.3x74R then there are for the 7x30.

Absolutely the 7x30 waters is all but dead in the water for finding factory ammo eventhough it is a good cartridge, and it can't come close to matching the 9.3X74R!

In any event one must handload to get the absolute best from a double rifle. There are very few double rifle that will regulate at it's best with factory ammo, especially vintage doubles.

.......................................................................

Like others said the 9,3x74 does it all. And like Mac said, you really need to reload to get the most out of your double in the first place.
9,3 would have better resell advantage as well. I have killed moose out to almost 300 yards with my Chapuis so elk is a no brainer.
Keep it simple and stay with the obvious good choice.

I did not discount the 9.3x74 because of difficulty in finding ammo. I said that it was hard to find ammo for the low pressure 9.3x72R, a different cartridge than the 9.3x74R. I guess you read past that.

quote:

The pressure for the 9.3x74R is too high, "desire to stay well below 50,000psi CIP (piezo)". 9.3x72R would be okay but a little hard to find ammo for.

Longer cartridge length requires longer chambers (X2) - adds weight
Fatter cases require fatter chambers - means larger breach, bigger action
The 7x30 Waters is short and narrow - suitable for a small action and light barrels. Though it operates at more pressure then I would prefer, an action of suitable strength would not necessarily need to be as large as an action needed to be for 9.3x74R. Yes, factory ammo in 7x30 Waters is limited.

I had consider the 9.3x72R but not only is loaded ammo limited, it takes a special case. Though factory ammo is limited for both the 25-35 and 7x30, cases will always be easy to obtain.

I guess we can't convince you to hand load; given your criteria of easy availability of ammo and mild pressures, and a small DR, Just go with a 30-30 and if you have to shoot an elk, get to within 30 yards and give it both barrels at once. Good luck with your project.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I guess we can't convince you to hand load; given your criteria of easy availability of ammo and mild pressures, and a small DR, Just go with a 30-30 and if you have to shoot an elk, get to within 30 yards and give it both barrels at once.

I do handload but I shoot more factory ammo. That's also how I get my cases. You don't think a 30-30 is adequate for elk to 100 yards, especially loaded with some of the better pointed .308 bullets?

How small of a rifle are you wanting? A Chapuis UGEX in 9,3x74R weighs just a hair over 7 pounds. Not sure who makes one significantly smaller or lighter than that.
Good luck in your search.

I used to have a .25-35 Manton & Co built on a Webley action and it weighed just over five pounds. I would like something under seven, closer to six. Of course, a .405 or .44 Mag would weigh more.

I just like to plan for worst case scenarios; under perfect conditions, a 30-30 will kill an elk. I personally would, and do, use much more powerful cartridges for game that big. Under less than perfect, a 9.3 will give you more room for error. As for a 44 mag, it could weigh far less than a .405, which has substantially more recoil. At least double the recoil energy. As stated, the most power for rifle weight is a Chapuis RGEX 9.3, which weighs right at 7 pounds, being built on 28ga frames.

my vote is for the 9.3X74R, though if you are dead set on using one of the cartridges you listed above, I would go with the 405. My greatest concern is with hunting elk. Even using pointed ammo, 30-30 ballistics are marginal, especially if the game gets out past 200yds.

Well, I suppose I did read past the 72R vs 74R. Honestly, I'm not real sure of the intent of your OP. Sounds like you don't really want any of the advice you asked to receive.

Good luck in building or buying whatever it is you're searching for!

Take a look at the Heym 26B O/U.

It is avialable in the popular European calibres including 9,3x74R, as well as 30/30, 30/06 [I know you said flanged, but just showing the strength of the rifle] and the 308 Marlin, and chambering for the 45/70 is in the works.

It also has its own QD scope mount that goes back to zero.

It is a nice, light, handy rifle.

I have one in 30/30, but I have shot them in 9,3x74R, 30R Blaser, and 8x57R.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Well, I suppose I did read past the 72R vs 74R. Honestly, I'm not real sure of the intent of your OP. Sounds like you don't really want any of the advice you asked to receive.

I am very interested in hearing opinions, suggestions, and comments. But the fact of the matter is that the 9.3x74R, as great a cartridge as it is, is not what I am looking for for this project. Been there, done that and this time I am looking for something else. I do not have my mind set on a cartridge and I have not considered all possibilities. I posted the same poll on the NE forums to get as broad a base of opinions as I can. One poster, bonanza, suggested the 35 Winchester. I had not even thought of that cartridge and it does fit the criteria.

N E 450 No2, thanks for the heads-up on the Heym. Catalog says 6.5-7 lbs depending on caliber. I am a SxS guy and I prefer steel to aluminum but that looks like a nice rifle and I'll look into it further.

For now, the question is one of caliber choice.

I voted other as you might expect. The best would be the .375 H&H FLanged. After that would be a toss up between .300 H&H Flanged, 8x75RS, 8x57JRS, 7x65R, and the 9.3x74R. None of the calibers you listed would even be on my radar list. I'm surprised they would be on yours as well.

.348 winchester

35 or 348 Winchester??? I thought you wanted to be able to get easily available factory ammo. Now I am really confused.

Grenadier

I too was a Confirmed SXS double rifle kind of guy till I handled and shot the Heym 26B.

You really need to try and handle one if you can.

I bought mine in 30/30 because I had many other more powerful rifles and I wanted a light low recoil, fun double that would be easy and inexpensive to shoot, and that a kid could shoot as well.

I would not hesitate to shoot an elk or black bear with it out to 200 yards or so.

I do think the 8x57R would be a better choice for the elk, but baised on some big pigs I have shot the 30/30 with Federal 170gr or the 160gr Hornady Lever Evolution would do the trick.

The frame itself is aluminium, but is just the housing for all the steel parts that perform the lockup of the rifle.

They have been in use in Germany/Europe for several years and have a good reputation.

The 308 Marlin would be a good cartridge too, but I like being able to get 30/30 ammo almost anywhere.

I will say this, IF, I did not have a couple of other 9,3x74R double, and double rifle Drillings, I would definately have a 26B, or at least an extra barrel set for mine in 9,3x74R.
The 9,3x74R is one of my most favorite hunting calibres.I have killed more different kinds of animals with a 9,3x74R vs any other.

I don't see the problem with the 9.3 x 74. Sorry.

Going to 9.3 x 74 will add 1/2 lb or more to the weight of the rifle, depending on the caliber choosen.

I voted for the 38-55. The cartridge has as history of being accurate and 255 grain to 280 bullets sized properly and loaded right make it an interesting round in my book. I give it an edge over the 30-30 due to the heavier bullet weights.

The 8x57 IRS is an old, but up-and-coming cartridge here in Europe.
Easy to shoot, wonderful effect on game.

M

The Heym Mod 26B is not any heavier in 9,3x74R, near as I can tell, handling it and a 30/30 side by side.

The 26B is one of the slimmest lightest O/U double rifles on the market.

So this is where I am so far on this:

The favorite choices, this site and NE, are .405, .30-30, and 38-55, in that order. There are several people who seem to want to press for the 9.3x74R. The 9.3x74R operates at more pressure than the above three cartridges and requires longer chambers than any of them. Building the rifle in 9.3x74R will result in a rifle at least 1/2 lb heavier so, even though the long 9.3mm has some die hard fans (me included), this rifle will not be built for that caliber.

I am contemplating a true custom rifle with receiver and barrels built to the specific caliber. Many companies use one or two frames to build guns of several calibers. The best example that comes to mind is a .410, 28ga, and 20ga all built on a 20ga sized action. Doing so results in a perfectly sized 20ga, an over sized heavy 28ga, and a bulky .410 with ponderous chambers and barrels. The rifle I am considering would be perfectly sized for the caliber - action, chambers, and barrels.

The .30-30 would give me a handier, lighter rifle than the .405, and with the large selection of standard .308 bullets available it would seem more versatile. But it would be regulated for a single factory load and I could probably only get a few different .308 bullets to regulate.

The .405 is tempting because of the additional power. It could, and would, be built smaller and lighter than a 9.3x74R but then there may the issue of recoil in a light rifle.

The .38-55 seems like it might be the best compromise between the .30-30 and .405. The rifle would be both light and powerful (for the intended purpose). But I am wondering about the bore. A true .38-55 bore is a few thousandths larger than the standard .375 bore. If the rifle had a standard .375 bore could I shoot .38-55 ammunition in it without trouble? If the answer to that is "yes" then that would be a big plus.

I have a couple of rifles in mind. One has a stronger action than the other but that also makes it a little bit heavier for caliber. Handling would be a little different between the two. I would use the less strong action (I don't want to say weaker because it isn't weak) for the .405 to keep it light for caliber and handy. I would use the stronger action for anything smaller. The rifle would be a SxS with action made of steel. That would make for a .405 rifle of ~7lbs and a ~6.5lb rifle in something like .30-30 or .38-55.

So, as you can see, I am still contemplating.