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I hate to beat a dead horse but Chapuis makes their RGEX on 28ga frames, and both the 9.3 and the 30-30 are made on that frame and weigh exactly the same. I still can't understand your statement that chamber length would make a rifle heavier. .405 is a good caliber; a friend uses a M95 Win for black bear and hogs. The Hornady bullets are very fragile and open up fast. Here is a pic which you might find amusing; they are all factory loads, a 9.3 RWS, Hornady .405, a 8x57jrs S&B, and a R-P 30-30. All operate at about the same pressures; mid to upper 40s. You say you have a couple of rifles in mind; which ones? Also, as I stated before, a 45-70 can give you a very light rifle with very high power at very low pressures. Sorry, I must like beating dead things to try to revive them.  | |||
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I think the factory load requirement is totally unrealistic. Very few suitable rimmed rounds are available at this time and in the next 5 to 10 years most of those will disappear. In the end about all that will be left is the 45-70 and the 30-30. Some obscure continental or Scandinavian load does not count for much since they are very expensive if you can find them. Distribution of them around the world is between non-existent and terrible. Why not just pick around that you like and load for it? Count on wagging your own ammo around the world in a caliber that is your best choice for your application. | |||
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dcpd Good post, and good picture. Grenadier, is seem to me that you are wanting to either build this rifle yourself or have someonelse build it for you verses buying a factory rifle. If so what reciever are you planning on using? What do you think your overal costs will be? And then there is the resale value thing. As to calibre, I also have a 405 as well as 9,3x74R. If a rifle could be made in 405, then it could be made on 9,3 as well. I like the 405WCF, but the 9,3x74R is IMHO the BEST calibre for a double rifle under 450/400. As to the 30/30 vs the 38-55, there is not enough difference in killing power between the two to negate the fact that you can get 30-30 ammo nearly anywhere, and it will always be avialable as long as we can still own guns. The 45/70 in standard 45/70 pressure loads, ie a 300gr bullet at 1850, would also make a good lighweight NA double rifle. At one time I think Chapuis also made some double rifles in 444 Marlin. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I remember back in the 70's, when i brought into the U.S., the FIRST two 9.3x74R DR bbl. sets for the Valmet 412. Several people told me then, "in 5 or 10 more years that round will be dead and you won't even beable to get brass for it, let alone factory rounds!! Well, you see how that worked out, now about 40 years later! There's MORE 9.3x74R factory ammo available today than ever before! Higher quality too, like Nosler and Hornady! DM | |||
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The fact the RGEX uses the same frame for both the 9.3x74R and the 30-30 is exactly what I am trying to avoid. A much smaller and lighter double suitable for .30-30 can be made than will ever be acceptable for the 9.3x74R. And, although the .405 and 9.3x74 are about the same diameter and the chamber lengths are close, the .405 operates at SIGNIFICANTLY lower pressure and a smaller action (and lighter barrels) can be made for it than required for the 9.3x74R. It would be interesting to see the calculated backthrust of the .405 and the 9.3x74R. Look at this picture:  All of these look about the same but you wouldn't want to build a .444 on a light .410 shotgun action. Just as a smaller action can be used for the .410 vs .444 a smaller action can be used for the .405 vs 9.3x74R. Remember, I am talking about a rifle purpose-built for the cartridge. . | |||
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I was thinking the exact same thing. I've got a 9.3X74R DR as well and it seems the chambering is growing in popularity almost daily! It's hardly on the downhill slide. | |||
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I agree. The popularity of the 9.3x74R is at an all time high and increasing in the USA. Also, Norma, Nosler, and Corbon are helping the .375 H&H Flanged make a noticeable return. . | |||
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Well don't hold your breath on the 9.3X74. If you really care about availability it is not really available down at the corner gun shop. Just think of all the others rimmed rounds that are dead and gone. Even if there is some botique ammo around it may disappear. Take a look at Cartridges of the World and look at all the extinct rounds. That is why I say pick what you like and load for it. Forget about depending on factory ammo. | |||
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38-55 is a cool cartridge, brass can be hard to come by, like 32-40, they only do occasional runs of it. But, it is supposed to be a .379 bullet. Squeezing a jacketed bullet .004 may raise pressures a bit on you. And having the barrel at 375 creates custom dies, and issues down the road on resale. You have created yourself an interesting puzzle there. Krieghoff Classic 30R Blaser Stevens 044-1/2 218 Bee Ruger #1A 7-08 Rem 700 7-08 Tikka t3x lite 6.5 creedmo Tikka TAC A1 6.5 creedmo Win 1885 300H&H. 223Rem Merkel K1 7 Rem mag CCFR | |||
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I have built many 38-55s with true 375 barrels; dies work fine and you use 375 bullets. Major bullet companies don't make the larger bullets anyway. So that is not a problem like you think it is. True, it was originally a larger bullet diameter, but not these days. As for 9.3 availability; true it not as common as 30-06, but it is readily available as stated above. My first 9.3x74r was in 1981 and then, the only brass and ammo was RWS and that was very hard to get. Some tried to stretch 444 Marlin brass, but that was too soft (I have some somewhere). Bullets; Speer 250s were about the only ones and they were not common; I have a die to swage 375s down. We have come a long way with many of those dead cartridges over the years. Don't count them out yet. BTW, the 405 and 9.3 operate at about the same pressure; mid 40k psi, and would have similar back thrusts. For each, with a chamber pressure of 45,000 psi, back thrust with an oiled case would be 5600 pounds. At 40000 psi, it would be 5000 pounds. And we know (PO Ackley showed) that brass alone can withstand more pressure than you realize. I see, and use, many 9.3 loads below those numbers. I notice in Hogedon data most 405 loads go from 42.5 to 44K psi. | |||
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Well, that, just makes life simpler. Certainly do wonders for the bullet choices. Makes for an interesting project idea. Krieghoff Classic 30R Blaser Stevens 044-1/2 218 Bee Ruger #1A 7-08 Rem 700 7-08 Tikka t3x lite 6.5 creedmo Tikka TAC A1 6.5 creedmo Win 1885 300H&H. 223Rem Merkel K1 7 Rem mag CCFR | |||
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CUP is not the same as PSI.
Take a closer look at the Hodgdon load listings. Hodgdon lists the pressures for the 9.3x74R loads in CUP. Hodgdon lists the loads for the .405 Winchester in PSI. CUP is not the same as PSI. The correlation is: PSI = -17,902 + 1.516 x CUP *. What is more, Hodgdon lists .405 max loads that exceed both CIP and SAAMI pressure standards (they do this with some other calibers too). Since SAAMI does not list pressures for the 9.3x74R but CIP lists loads for both it and the .405, let's compare what CIP publishes: Max CIP for 9.3x74R is 49,000 PSI or 44,000 CUP Max CIP for .405 is 36,000 PSI or 32,000 CUP dpcd - How does backthrust compare using 49,000 PSI for the 9.3x74R and 36,000 PSI for the .405 Winchester? * Correlating PSI and CUP . | |||
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My point is, and has been, that there are MANY loads for the 9.3 that are less than 42K CUP, or 45000 psi. I use loads less than 40K psi. Backthrust for 36000 psi would be 4500 pounds. BTW, my Vihtavouri manual shows a CIP pressure of 43500 PSI. I believe the 49k figure is for the 9.3x62. I can find no load data which is anywhere near 49K psi. Also, if you do the math, pressures in the 30-40K CUP are essentially the same as PSI which is why I use the terms pretty much interchangeably in this area of pressure. | |||
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Point well taken I. However, regardless of what loads one chooses to shoot, a rifle must be manufactured to handle industry standard factory loads. My guess is that the pressure shown in your Vihtavouri manual is in CUP. The 44,000 CUP figure I listed above came from a reference that rounded off to the nearest 1000. Apparently, 43,500 CUP got rounded up to 44,000 CUP. This all has made me very curious so I went to the source. From the CIP website ( http://www.cip-bobp.org/homolo...&cartridge_type_id=2 ) the maximum average pressure for the 9.3x74R is 3400 bar. After converting, 3400 bar = 49,313 psi From the CIP website ( http://www.cip-bobp.org/homolo...&cartridge_type_id=2 ) the maximum average pressure for the .405 Winchester is 2450 bar. After converting, 2450 bar = 35,534 psi I, too, like the 9.3x74R and agree that it is a wonderful cartridge for just about anything. A relatively small, light double can be made for the 9.3x74R but an even smaller, lighter double can be made for the .405 and smaller and lighter is my goal. . | |||
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What is your target weight, how small is small (you may not have to give up strength to achieve the small size), also do you plan to mount a scope? Years ago I had a no name Belgium double in 22 Sav. if memory serves me that weighed about 5 lb. Got talked out of it by a friend. I still think about it from time to time and even think about having a new gun made. Down side is not all states will allow a 22 centerfire for big game. I have also seen a few 6.5x57R's that were very small. Ken DRSS, PP Chapter Life NRA Life SCI Life DSC | |||
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Hi, Ken. My target weight is something 6.5lbs +/- depending on caliber. As far as giving up strength to get there, well that's what most of the discussion seems to really be about. I am willing to give up the strength required for higher pressure cartridges (9.3x74R or 7x65R for example) and have a rifle chambered in a lower pressure cartridge (.405 or .38-55 for example). I'm thinking 6 to 6-1/2 lbs for a .30-30 or .38-55 and a little heavier, maybe 7 lbs, for a .405 to help with recoil. I see the RGEX is available in .30-30 with 21.5" barrels at only 6.5 lbs so I know it is doable. If I was going with the .25-35 (6.5x53R) I know it could be as light as 5-1/2 lbs because of the one I previously owned. Scope - nope, but maybe a peep. . | |||
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I do not think that a small caliber that will weigh between 6 to 7 lb as ultra light. You coming to SCI, correct? Come by and see me, I can show you several 9.3 with 24" barrels that weigh less than 7lb that are small in size and do not give up anything in strength. We can do a similar gun in any cal you want as long as regulation ammo and barrels in the bore diameter is available. Just pick a caliber, barrel length, and target weight. Ken DRSS, PP Chapter Life NRA Life SCI Life DSC | |||
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Ken, I do not want a 9.3x74R for this rifle. It makes a great gun, one of the best, but in an 8+ pound rifle. Recoil from a 7 pound 9.3x74R would feel like the recoil from a 7 pound .375H&H - Too much!. Recoil from a 7 pound .405 should feel about like the recoil from a 7 pound 35 Whelen - stiff but acceptable. Recoil from a 6-1/2 pound .30-30 is fairly mild. Recoil from a 6-1/2 pound .38-55 would be milder still Recoil from a 6 pound .25-35 wouldn't be worth mentioning . | |||
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Recoil in a 7 pound 405 and a 9.3 is about the same; 37.47 pounds for the 9.3 and 35.07 pounds for the 405. That's with a 300 grain at 2200 for the 405 and a 286 at 2350 for the 9.3. I also checked a 250 grain 35 load at 2450 fps; 32.80 pounds of recoil in a 7 pound rifle. A 375 will be 45-50 pounds depending on powdrer charge used. Anyway, I suggest you go with Kebco's offer. | |||
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Sorry I may not have been clear. I was not suggesting the 9.3 only that size and weight should not limit the strength of the action. Ken DRSS, PP Chapter Life NRA Life SCI Life DSC | |||
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Grenadier, Please PM me. I'll put you on to the .303 real quick.. | |||
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Grenadier, It seems you're wanted a frame size and weight much like the Merkel 141. Therein lies the caliber problem. The closest thing in the 141 to your criteria would be the 7x57R. Not a bad choice in that one. From what I'm hearing from you, it looks like it has to be either a custom in a couple of low pressure chamberings or a Chapuis in a .30-30, if they still offer it. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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 This is a Bailey Bradshaw double .405. I think it is about as light and trim as you would want! | |||
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Yes, now that's a nice one. Bailey's just got to figure out how to deliver 20 guns a year without exhoribantly raising his prices. They are as elegant as it gets. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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What does that weigh? . | |||
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9 lb 12 oz. Barrels are 27" Silvers type pad is certainly heavier than a plate. | |||
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9lb 120z, is NOT a Light Weight small calibre double. A Chapuis in 9,3x74R only weighs 7 1/4lbs. The Heym 26B even less. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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If it were me I would give serious thought to a 8x57 JRS. 465H&H | |||
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DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Other. I believe 375Win can still be purchased and 230gr Raptors would greatly improve this ctg. We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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drew Problem IS NOBODY I know of makes a double in 375Win. And it is not enough of a step up in power over a 30/30 to spend the extra money on a custom build. And IF you did, you would loose your shirt on the resale. IMHO of course. The truth is, when you talk about double rifles under 40 calibre, there are not many American cartridge choices. The 30/30, 30 Marlin, 30/06, and now the 45/70 is avialable in the Heym 26B. For All round use in NA I would recommend the 7x57R, 7x65R, 30/06, 30 Blaser, 8x57 JRS, and the 9,3x74R. For close up shooting on deer and pigs the 30/30 works great, and the 45/70 does even better, IMHO. BUT, if I could pick only one calibre, for a NA double rifle, it would be the 9,3x74R. I have killed more game, and more different species of game with the 9,3x74R, that ANY other calibre. It is my most favorite calibre between .30 and .40. IF I did not want a 9,3, for all round NA use, it would be the 8x57JRS. I would just stockpile brass and bullets... OR in a good double I would just get a 30/06, or a 308. I have killed a lot of game, and shot a lot of rounds with the rimless 308 and 30/06 in break open and combo guns with never any problems. Personally, I would rather have [baised on my personal experience, with several different makes of guns],a 30/06, or 308 double or combo gun, where I can buy ammo, most anywhere, including Walmart, vs a rimmed European calibre where ammo is hard to find... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Grenadier, just an observation here, get all the folks that insist you go with a 9.3x74R to donate $$$ to you to get the rifle built in that caliber, or just pick whatever caliber you like the best and start contacting the various manufacturers and see what they can put together for you. Obviously, everyone else has a better idea of what you need/want than you do. Repeating that you do not want a 9.3x74R does not seem to be translating very well.  Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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N E 450.....Are you saying that If I plunked down the money, Butch Searcy or Bailey Bradshaw would not build a 375Win for me? We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Ask then how much it will weigh, and what it will cost... Send them a check. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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This discussion is getting a little lost in the details in my opinion. So much emphasis on the differences in pressure and the corresponding need for more steel in the chamber walls. As a rule, .2" chamber wall thickness is the minimum I will allow regardless of how low the pressure, but feel better when it's thicker than that. .3" will hold any of these chamberings listed, so doing the math gives a chamber area diameter on a 9.3 at 1.071". It could be parred down to .95" and be safe. Thats pretty slim compared to the typical bolt rifle barrel shank diameter of 1.2". All this being said, my choice would be .303 British. In a light rifle it won't punish the shooter and has availability, tradition and plenty of power for all but the big bears. Bailey Bradshaw www.bradshawgunandrifle.com I'm in the gun buildin bidness, and cousin....bidness is a boomin | |||
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I have often wondered why someone didn't make a .375 Win that would also chamber and shoot .38-55. I would think all it would take is chambering for .375 and adding 0.065 inches to the chamber length so 38-55 would fit. . | |||
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I maybe wrong, but I thought when the .375 Winchester came out, the .38-55 round could be chambered and shot, but you could not shoot the .375 out of a rifle chambered for the .38-55. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse - I've heard and read the .375 will chamber in a .38-55 creating a problem because of the higher presure of the .375. But I have never seen any reference to cambering a .38-55 in a .375 Winchester. It is my understanding that the .38-55 won't fit because of the slightly longer case of the .38-55. I've never tried it myself. . | |||
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That sounds more reasonable. I just knew that one could be chambered in the other, but not fired. Thanks for the correction and Best of Luck on getting your, Not a 9.3x74R, double built. Hope you keep us updated on the project, as a 38-55 or 405 double sounds interesting. Have a Happy New Year.  Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Here are the facts on the 38-55; there are two lengths of brass and Starline makes both lengths. If you have a modern day 38-55 you would use the 2.085), and if you have an older model rifle you can use the 2.125 length. I think current Marlin Model 336 use the 2.085" length. It is confusing; when I do a 38-55 barrel job, I use only .375 barrels and the short brass reamer. No one would want a rifle with a .379 barrel these days unless you wanted to use custom bullets. Of course, 375 bullets work but they are up to .005 small. I have a new Uberti High wall with a .379 groove barrel in it.... Winchester started making short brass 38-55s about the same time as the introduction of the .375 in the 1978 so they would only have to make one length of brass and it would still work in old rifles. The .375 brass is 2.020, so it is shorter than the new 38-55s. A 375 Win will fit into a 38-55 but you aren't supposed to do fire them in older rifles but is has been done and no one got blown up; the shorter round and larger bore reduces the pressure enough to let the old rifle steel take it. And for a new rifle, like a Marlin, it will easily handle the pressure. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles What rimmed caliber in light double rifle for North American big game?
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