I'm sure this "dawg" has been kicked before, but I credit "Will" (Bill Stewart) for bringing the subject to my attention.

DR's have traditionally had 2 triggers and I understand the reasons. However, more of the newer rifles are offered with either single selective or nonselective trigger.

Based on actual field experience is their a big advantage either way? Any double trigger failures out there? Any single trigger failures out there?

I have had a single trigger failure on an O/U shotgun. For me a single trigger is completely unnatural as I was raising using a 2 trigger shotgun. So I am sure I will never have any hunting experience with a single trigger double rifle.

What your use to is the supreme field advantage. If someone uses a bolt rifle or a single trigger shotgun the majority of the time then they might want to consider a single trigger DR. You mentioned actual field use, as the saying goes,"fear the man thay owns one gun" it's what you get use to. If you shoot a lot you can get use to anything in a short time. For me I'll stick with two triggers on a DR.

1 trigger 2 problems...2 triggers, no problems...

...WR was about the only maker I've heard of that had any sort of reliability on DR singles.

I would consider a single on a small-bore DR - .300 smaller, just because I'd most likely be shooting a little ways out there and by not changing finger position the second shot would possibly be a bit smoother, thus more accurate.

...For DG - DT period...No "1" way about it...

JW

PS - STs (on DRs) are the "Kiss of Death" on the re-sale market!!!

I have double rifles with both double triggers, and single triggers. IMO if you are hunting deer with your double then it is simply a matter of personal chioice, in fact, it is a matter of personal choice either way. There is on thing you need to think about when selecting a double rifle with a single trigger set up. It doesn't matter if there has ever been a failier or not, the fact is, if the trigger does fail, the rifle is out of service till a gun smith can get inside it with new parts! At least with a double trigger rifle, if one trigger fails, or any part in one a lock, the rifle is still a working single shot! "IF" a single trigger fails what you are left with is a 10 pouund club to fight with! Not a place I want to be with a wounded cape Buffalo, however, others may do as it suits them, and with my blessing!

I've had a double discharge with a mechanical single trigger gun, but have never had one, or any other problem, with a double trigger gun.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Adding to that truthful logic, I too have had enough "Doubles" from ST guns to be glad they were on shotguns and not a DR during a DG charge, or, DFOADRDADGC!...Which is about a screwed-up an acronym as it gets!!!...Only the thought of a ST on a DR is more so!!!

I just wonder how much of this single-trigger doubling is imagination. Maybe no manufacturer wants to install a ST because of operator errors!

When was the last time anyone was standing a charge by an elephant, buff, etc. and a ST rifle doubled?

Short of that, instead of DG, how about a charging cock pheasant or a beserk claybird?

I had a Ruger red Label 20ga that had the bad habit of doubling about 1 out of ten pulls of the trigger. It was of course a ST gun.

So yes on occasion when being charged by a rabid dove or a killer quail I have had the ole ST gun double on me.

As far as elephant's and buffalo go it wouldn't happen because it is not my choice to use a ST gun in those situations.

Of course following the fuzzy logic presented here: It can't happen because nobody here has had it happen to them while they were being charged by an elephant or a buffalo. Ok, it's all cleared up for me now. Thanks.

My choice-

Double rifle=two barrels, two sets of lockwork, two triggers, one set of sights.

I have seen numerous single trigger failures, both selective and non selective.


--Tinker

I used a cheap, ugly but reliable CZ, O/U, chambered 7,62x54R (7,62 Russian) for 5 years. It was originally based on combined system of rifle and shotgun (7x57R/16). Rifle had a front trigger set for upper bore and a second trigger for lower bore with first pull and upper bore with second pull. I used this gun strictly when tracking wounded boars. When using it in field there was no need for different bullets in barrels and those boars are nasty fast when charging, I found myself simply pulling the second trigger twice to be much faster and less complicated (for me that is), so I just asked my gunsmith to simply saw off front trigger - it worked as needed – no doubling experience.

Yes, there is a BIG advantage to a single trigger. How many millions of rounds have been fired but compeitive shotgunners? Do they use single or double triggers?

Not a logically derived analogy! Competative shooters have noting to risk but a lower score should their ST malfunction .i.e. "Double". And, EVERY serious shooter I know has experienced an ST doubling more than once...No big deal on the clays range, different story should this happen in a dire situation.

Been there,

JW

YES it's logical!! Under pressure, one trigger!!!!

No doubt.

Negative amigo...been under pressure...You do best with what you have been "trained" to do...and you train with what will be the most reliable under the most scenarios possible....The ST ain't.

The ST leaves you no option during a point-blank encounter should it double / fail to inertia cock. Or, the terrified individual forgets to release the trigger to allow it to set the second barrel. A DT is faster and reliable for this type of situation, period. That's a fact and any dispute thereof is just mere argument and nothing else.

That as we say is the "end of the road" for this thread.

JW

ALL THE MODERN DAY PUNDITS ARE "REAL EXPERTS" ON TRIGGERS.

LET US CONSIDER WHAT AN EXPERT ELEPHANT HUNTER OF LONG AGO USED

JIM SUTHERLAND USED NOT ONE, BUT A PAIR , OF WESTLEY RICHARDS 577 AND THEY WERE SINGLE TRIGGERS.

NOW THIS CLOSES THE THREAD AND SHOULD PUT A CORK IN THE MOUTHS OF THE "KNOW IT ALLS"

I'll say this, if you shoot double trigger shotguns, you will do your best with a double trigger double rifle.

If you shoot single trigger shotguns, you better practice with double triggers.

Practice makes perfect, and almost all of use shoot shotguns a whole lot more than double rifles.

I have never had, but know of several single trigger shotguns that have been trouble.

I shoot double triger guns almost exclusively, and a double trigger rifle is as familiar as ...

JPK

quote:

JIM SUTHERLAND USED NOT ONE, BUT A PAIR , OF WESTLEY RICHARDS 577 AND THEY WERE SINGLE TRIGGERS.

Hell, Tom - if he used double triggers, he would have only needed one, not two, rifles...

quote:

NOW THIS CLOSES THE THREAD AND SHOULD PUT A CORK IN THE MOUTHS OF THE "KNOW IT ALLS"

Gee Tom...Just how many DRs does one need to own, how many in-person experiences and testiminials...Etc, does one need to have to become a "Know it all"?

Guess you think that some of us don't have the experience to make a qualified comment on the subject, less our manes are Taylor, Bell, Selous...

...

JW

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
LET US CONSIDER WHAT AN EXPERT ELEPHANT HUNTER OF LONG AGO USED

JIM SUTHERLAND USED NOT ONE, BUT A PAIR , OF WESTLEY RICHARDS 577 AND THEY WERE SINGLE TRIGGERS.

...and if you knew much you'd know that Sutherland was WAY out of the mainstream in that choice among his peers, and that large bore double rifles with single triggers were a rarity in his day, as they remain today, for the solid reasons that Jeff gave.

So, yeah, Sutherland used a single trigger double successfully, just as Bell used a .275 Rigby Mauser successfully...and 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' isn't a very bright argument. The fact that both got away with it doesn't validate either choice as wise by definition.

quote:

NOW THIS CLOSES THE THREAD AND SHOULD PUT A CORK IN THE MOUTHS OF THE "KNOW IT ALLS"

You must like the taste of cork, eh Tom?
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Even Taylor didn't object to single triggers. He was a big fan of single-shots too. So why does anyone need a double anyway?

Taking JPK's argument one step further, use the trigger arrangement that makes you happy.

I should be so lucky to hunt enough to ever see my single trigger fail!

quote:

Hell, Tom - if he used double triggers, he would have only needed one, not two, rifles...SCI Life MemberDSC Life MemberDRSS Member

I can't imagine buying a single trigger double again. Did that once, still can't shoot it.

If you are worried about learning to use a double trigger instinctively, go out and buy a double trigger shotgun and shoot trap with it. After a while, twin triggers will become more natural than breathing.

Brent

Use what you want, but be aware, that a single trigger is the single item that if it fails in anyway, it renders the whole rifle out of service! The single trigger used on a double is far different than a single trigger used on a single shot. Because the trigger on a single shot has only one function, is is very reliable, while the trigger for a double has all manner of moveing parts, the must swing on tiny pins, parts that are quite suseptable to dirt, and grease or tiny amounts of rust makeing their movement sluggish, in order to fire the next barrel. Think of two Ruger No1s welded together, the two rifles are seperate, and no matter what happens to one, it does not effect the other. That is why double indipendant triggers are the best choice for a double rifle used for dangerous game stopping. It is simply BS that you can't learn to use double triggers, or if you are used to double triggers, get used to a single trigger. You can learn to shoot any system, but that isn't the point here. The fact that you can shoot a single trigger doesn't take away the fact that if it fails, YOU AIN'T GONA BE SHOOTIN NUTHIN!

But what happens if both triggers on the DT DR fail, or it turns out that the moon really isn't made of cheese?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
But what happens if both triggers on the DT DR fail, or it turns out that the moon really isn't made of cheese?

My life insurance company said they would lower my premiums if I used a British sidelock double in either .600 NE or .577 NE (with 2 triggers of course).

quote:

But what happens if both triggers on the DT DR fail, or it turns out that the moon really isn't made of cheese?

Will, this is where your exercise regimen comes into play. You should have developed the strength and flexibility to bend at the waist, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodbye.

quote:

Even Taylor didn't object to single triggers. He was a big fan of single-shots too. So why does anyone need a double anyway?

With all due respect to Mr. Taylor as he certainly had more experience shooting African game than have I.

It is clear to me however, that after reading, re-reading and reading some more of Taylor's works, he was fond of whatever came his way, and I'm just talking about guns here (no mentioning of certain "OTHER" proclivities, i.e single triggers on things other than rifles )....Fact is, if you are willing to put your life on the line with a single shot / single trigger DR, suit yourself. You might never be faced with a situation where it would make any difference what you were shooting, but should the occasion arise wherein a double was needed and you got caught, stomped and gored to death whils't fumbling to reload / perform an emergency ST failure drill...Well, you know the rest of the story...All luck runs out sooner than later amigo!

Don't shame your heirs by making them tell how stubborn and foolish you were for not carrying the best possible tool for the job!...


Might go like this: "Junior, I hear your dad was killed hunting Dangerous Game in Africa - what a brave guy!"...."well, brave he was, BUT stupider was he....He got stomped to death using a Single Shot 5.56 Fart-Squeezen", made by Purholndgby..."Really, sounds like a cool rifle AND sounds like your dad WAS a dumb-ass!"...shame, shame, shame...

As for Bell, Taylor, Selous, etc...all Heroes of the African frontier...BUT, Who gives a damn if they carried Daisey 1910 BB guns....that was then, them and now, history. There are a hell of a lot more folks who's names oddly enough have faded into history that had gotten themselves killed by trying less than intelligent means of securing dangerous game animals.

I realize you were trying to pick a fight, so I had some fun responding to an otherwise pointless argument!

JW

quote:

But what happens if both triggers on the DT DR fail, or it turns out that the moon really isn't made of cheese?

Now hold on a minute here BILL! Arguing over trigger configurations on DRs is fine....BUT, don't you dare bring something as exciting as Dairy-Astronomy into the discussion...

...That'll start a real fight.

JW

Perhaps single triggers are not as evil as they are made out to be.

After all, Chairman Mao Tse-tung only had one testicle although two is standard equipment.

After that article in African Hunter, I am sure if you were pimping for someone selling single trigger doubles, you'd be humping them like Boddington on a flashlight.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
...humping them like Boddington on a flashlight.

Saeed complains that I never have anything positive to say, and you complain that my writing is too positive. Will no one be satisfied?

I suspect at least one of the reasons double triggers are so popular is that most English doubles were built for and bought by Englishmen that grew up using double trigger shotguns. Here in the US double triggers are a rarity in rifles or shotguns. Double triggers are as foreign to American hunters as single triggers are to English hunters. Best quality English rifles equipped with single triggers have an excellent reputation. I don't ever remember anyone that used one ever mentioning having a single trigger rifle fail them in the vast number of books on African hunting that I have read. The Westley Richards single trigger has a well deserved reputation for reliability. I am not sure that the lower quality European doubles will match that level of reliability. Hopefully they will.
I am a typical American and never used a double trigger gun or rifle until I got my first English double. I have had very little trouble adapting. On one occasion I had a problem similar to Will's in that I tried to pull the front trigger again on an insurance shot on a downed ele. I find that if I constantly visualize firing a quick right and left while switching triggers, when the time comes I then do it subconsciously.

465H&H

The question seems to be are ST's reliable enough? Some say they are, some say you can't count on them. They will break (presumably more often than DT's). I don't remember Sutherland ever writing that his ever failed, except for one time.

Sutherland wrote that one of his .577s doubled in the face of a charging bull elephant - and failed to stop him - after which the elephant banged into Sutherland rather harshly and shuffled a few of his bones and body parts around, IIRC.

So, ST's can apparently double. But so can DT's. And if Sutherland had had a DT .577 that doubled on him in the cited case, he'd have been no better off. Doubling is caused by wear or breakage, it seems to me, and not necessarily any inherent design weakness. Why should a ST be an inherently weaker or less reliable design than a DT? I have never read anywhere, including in any of the old elephant hunter's writings, that ST's were somehow found to be more prone than DT's to breakage or other failures.

All the DT supporters ever seem to say is that if your ST does break, then you no longer have a functioning rifle, whereas if one of your DT's breaks, you will still have a single. That was a big deal when men hunted elephant alone and the nearest gunsmith was days or weeks away. Not so much nowadays, when anyone on an African DG hunt will have a PH at his shoulder - and a back up DGR handy, just in case.

As for the problems that may occur after an ST double does fire both barrels at once, or after the shooter fails to release the trigger after the first shot, these problems strike me as training issues, not inherent and disqualifying design failures.

Assuming no inherent ST design failures or weaknesses (and I should emphasize that I don't presume to be an expert on that question, although it would surprise me if there were any - given the degree to which ST's are used in double shotguns), then it simply boils down to a question of what type of trigger one is used to using, or prefers to use.

I would agree, however, that it would seem best to equip all of one's doubles with one's preferred choice of trigger - either make them all ST's or all DT's - in order to avoid the potential for confusion and operator error when switching from one to another.

quote:

I don't remember Sutherland ever writing that his ever failed, except for one time.

This is my point...It only takes one time!

JW

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
The question seems to be are ST's reliable enough? Some say they are, some say you can't count on them. They will break (presumably more often than DT's). I don't remember Sutherland ever writing that his ever failed, except for one time.

Sutherland wrote that one of his .577s doubled in the face of a charging bull elephant - and failed to stop him - after which the elephant banged into Sutherland rather harshly and shuffled a few of his bones and body parts around, IIRC. So, ST's can apparently double. But so can DT's. And if Sutherland had had a DT .577 that doubled on him in the cited case, he'd have been no better off. Doubling is caused by wear or breakage, it seems to me, and not necessarily any inherent design weakness.

Mrlexma, a doubleing is not a trigger failier, but a sear engagement failier! Failier, to me, in the case of triggers is it fails to fire the rifle at all!

quote:

Why should a ST be an inherently weaker or less reliable design than a DT? I have never read anywhere, including in any of the old elephant hunter's writings, that ST's were somehow found to be more prone than DT's to breakage or other failures.

The single trigger could be inherently weaker than a double trigger, because the double trigger is a one piece afair that simply presses against sear FOOT dislodgeing it from the striker, allowing it to fall. The single trigger usually has a thin "WING" the swings on a tiny pin ot a position under the FOOT of one sear, and when that striker falls, the striker falling flips the wing over to the other sidebelow the foot for the other sear. When this works properly, everything is OK in the bush, but since it is inside where it is rarely seen, or cleaned, and very little lubrication get to these floating pieces, condensation can cause a tiny amount of rust locking this little swinging wing in a central position, so it fails to fire either barrel!

It is my belief the reason you didn't find more that the one you found, which wasn't a trigger failier anyway, is, because for every single trigger double rifle used by the old Ivory hunters, there hundreds of double trigger doubles used. Averages would gather on the side of the double trigger failiers many times more than it would single trigger failiers, and that is not the case in the writings of the old ele hunters, when you found no failiers mentioned with double triggers.

quote:

All the DT supporters ever seem to say is that if your ST does break, then you no longer have a functioning rifle, whereas if one of your DT's breaks, you will still have a single. That was a big deal when men hunted elephant alone and the nearest gunsmith was days or weeks away. Not so much nowadays, when anyone on an African DG hunt will have a PH at his shoulder - and a back up DGR handy, just in case.

This assumes if your rifle fails the PH is always there to drag your nuts out of the fire, and that he can't be the first one hit, and you are left to fix things for him. In that case you don't have much time to take your rifle apart and fix a busted trigger, that has rendered OTS!

quote:

As for the problems that may occur after an ST double does fire both barrels at once, or after the shooter fails to release the trigger after the first shot, these problems strike me as training issues, not inherent and disqualifying design failures.

As I said, asingle trigger rifle fireing both barrels is not the fault of the trigger, so it doesn't qualify as a trigger failier, but is a machanical failier, and doesn't qualify as a training failier either. A dummy failing to release a trigger after fireing the rifle once, is not a training issue, either, IMO, it is the result of person forzen by bald faced FEAR, and that can happen with any rifle system ever made, including double triggers!

quote:

Assuming no inherent ST design failures or weaknesses (and I should emphasize that I don't presume to be an expert on that question, although it would surprise me if there were any - given the degree to which ST's are used in double shotguns), then it simply boils down to a question of what type of trigger one is used to using, or prefers to use.

I would agree, however, that it would seem best to equip all of one's doubles with one's preferred choice of trigger - either make them all ST's or all DT's - in order to avoid the potential for confusion and operator error when switching from one to another.

I agree that it is a good idea to use what you are used to useing. That said, I would say of those who us single trigger double shotguns, most also use single trigger bolt rifles, but I would wager most those who use single trigger shotguns, and bolt rifle, tend to use double trigger double rifles of the S/S persuasion. My objection to single trigger is that it is simply not the best choice for a DGR double, because everything on a DGR should be the most likely system to keep the WHOLE rifle opperating till the fight is over. An auto safety, has the potential cause a opperator mal function, after a quick re-load, presious time that could cost someone their life, any item that if it fails, puts the whole rifle OTS, should be avoided like a Black Mamba, that one item is a single trigger on a double rifle!

My opinion is not to be considered the last word on DGRs,by anyone, but I'm 70 yrs old, and been in a few tight sittuations,not all hunting animals, and I'm not carrying any scars caused by any mistakes in DGR choices. It simply seems senseless, to me, to incorporate any feature into a rifle, you intend useing the safe guard your life, that may not go the distance, and if it doesn't, leaves you unarmed! To me, it makes no difference if there has EVER been a single trigger failier, the fact is, if it does fail, you are unarmed at a most inopertune moment! Still every mans choice is respected, as long as he is the only one to pay, if it turns out to be the wrong one.

There are more "Ifs" in this thread than a thousand books.

If the single trigger fails in a charge, and that is the only area of concern apparently, who is not going to try to bend the trigger that fails in a double trigger rifle in the same situation?

Anyway, I give up on this thread.

Bill,

I'm with you,

Jeff

Dan,

As always, thank you for filling in that gap in my education. I am almost ashamed to admit it, but I never knew Mao was the father of the "single trigger".

Will,

What can I say:

quote:

After that article in African Hunter, I am sure if you were pimping for someone selling single trigger doubles, you'd be humping them like Boddington on a flashlight.

That has to be an AR "Instant Classic"!

Food for thought.

What do you think is the more common occurance?

1. A failure of the single trigger on a double rifle.

2. Hunter forgetting to move finger from front to rear trigger?

465H&H

#2

And I bet that bolt action jams are more often operator error than faulty rifles.