quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
#2

And I bet that bolt action jams are more often operator error than faulty rifles.

I wouldn't bet any money against that reasoning.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Food for thought.

What do you think is the more common occurance?

1. A failure of the single trigger on a double rifle.

2. Hunter forgetting to move finger from front to rear trigger?

465H&H

In my experience, the former by far.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
#2

And I bet that bolt action jams are more often operator error than faulty rifles.

I wouldn't bet any money against that reasoning.

465H&H

Me three.

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Food for thought.

What do you think is the more common occurance?

1. A failure of the single trigger on a double rifle.

2. Hunter forgetting to move finger from front to rear trigger?

465H&H

In my experience, the former by far.

Brent

I would bet its #2. You can see it in Buzz Charlton's DVD and he mentions it also. When we spoke about it he mentioned that it happens with unfortunate regularity.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I would bet its #2. You can see it in Buzz Charlton's DVD and he mentions it also. When we spoke about it he mentioned that it happens with unfortunate regularity.

JPK

If you do not practice, I would agree. I shoot only twin trigger guns, I do not have this problem. I do sometimes borrow a single trigger gun or steal my wife's double with a single trigger and find myself trying to squeeze off a second shot with the trigger guard. So, the reverse can happen.

Brent

Brent,

I wasn't accusing you of pulling the fron trigger twice, just noting that it is surly the more common of the two problems.

I shoot single and double trigger guns about equally. No issues going form one to two triggers. But on occasion I pull the heck out of the trigger gaurd on my sloppy weather, sloppy conditions marsh duck gun, which is a pump.

Most American shooters do not shoot double trigger shotguns too often. Most hunters do not practice enough either.

JPK

JPK,
I guess we can agree that it might depend on who the shooter is, and what his experience might be.

Even most of my single shots have two triggers. Of course they are used in reverse order and for different functions.

Brent

Like I said, the more frequent problem is surely the hunter who pulls the front trigger twice.

If for no other reason than there are relatively few single trigger double rifles compared to the number of hunters who don't shoot double trigger shotguns and who don't practice enough.

I suspect though, that statistics would show that the single trigger double rifle is less likely to foul up than the shooter, even when corrected for the greater number of shooters who don't shoot double trigger shotguns and don't practice enough.

And of course were talking about dangerous game rifles and not deer rifles with set triggers.

JPK

jpk, Your statement is akin ignoring that individuals can be and often are, completely different. If you want to lump everyone into one box and then prescribe the average answer for any specific individual, you are doing a lot of folks a disservice.

The only trigger issue I've ever had have been with single trigger guns. The only time I've pulled the wrong "trigger" was on a single trigger gun.

Brent

Brent,

Stop being so self centered and self focused. We're talking about the more common problem. Not the more common problem YOU have.

So far as doing alot of folks diservice, only those who neither shoot double trigger shotguns or don't practice enough are included and it is no diservice to point out that they make mistakes which are preventable.

If you make mistakes with a single trigger gun it is lack of practice; I have made the same (stupid, lack of practice) mistakes. It is of no consequence when we are speaking of dangerous game and double trigger rifles.

Watch Buzz's DVD and then comment. You will see a couple of double trigger screw ups. You will not see a single trigger problem. That alone should prove my point about reliability of the shooter vs. reliability of the rifle.

JPK

oh whatever....
christ, you must think you were out saving the world.

It is true, IMO, the the more common problem between the #1 and #2 would be #2, regardless of the numbers differences. HOWEVER, that wasn't the question, we were talking about the reliabitity of the sigle trigger when compared to the double trigger,machaniclly. The pulling of the wrong trigger is not machanical, but a training problem, just like a person forgeting to disengage an auto safety after breaking for a re-load,durring a tense sittuation, where speed, and calm are a must. The same goes for the pulling of the same trigger twice, both are lact of experience with the rifle.

The only question to be answered here is if a single trigger goes South, what is the effect on the rifle as a whole, and if one trigger goes South on a double trigger rifle what is the effect on the rifle as a whole?

On the one hand the single trigger renders the rifle out of service, while the double trigger leaves you with a WORKING SINGLE SHOT! That fact is not changed by the average likelyhood of one or the other breaking, but is simply the result of the different systems breaking. With that in mind, I see no good reason to build a DGR that way in the first place, when it actually costs more to have the one that is most detramental, if it breaks!

Amen Mac
Why ask why when you already know the answer. Go double or go with a different type of rifle. The double trigger with 2 seperate systems is a big part of what makes a double a good choice(not the only choice) when your life may be at risk.

Mac

AzGuy asked "Based on actual field experience is their a big advantage either way?"

So it does answer one of his questions. By field experience we know that an average hunter is more likely to forget to move his finger from one trigger to the other than have his single trigger gun fail. Advantage to the single trigger gun. If the single trigger fails you are left with a club. With a double trigger gun you still have another gun available albeit a single shot. Advantage to the double trigger gun.

465H&H

Ditto what Mac said.

I think the concern over switching back and forth between single and double trigger guns is overblown. All of my double shotguns are SST and my double rifles are DT. I've never tried to pull the front trigger twice, nor have I ever tried to switch triggers on an ST gun. I've never had a bobble of any kind.

Over the last few years, we've had multiple double discharges at every DRSS event. Some guys are so plagued by DDs that they insist that L-R is the correct firing order! Some folks just can't master double triggers for some reason, and others simply refuse to learn how to use them correctly. Those folks are probably better off with an ST, despite the obvious disadvantages. However, there is no question that double triggers are superior for double rifles, for those who can master them.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

BTW, you can get a troublesome inertia trigger to switch to the second barrel by smacking the butt on the ground. Surely not ideal, but if someone is in a pickle...

JPK

JPK

Is that technique known as the "double dribble"?

No, it is known as the "single (trigger) dribble" because if the rifle had two triggers it wouldn't be nessecary.

The "double (trigger) dribble", which can be observed a number of times in Buzz Charlton's DVD, occurs when the shooter is actively trying to bend the first trigger of a two trigger gun after firing his first barrel.

JPK

Ah, but they are both double rifles.

I would not recommend bouncing a rifle off the ground unless one was absolutely certain it was a trigger failure and not a hang fire. Even then, if it was an issue with the mechanism, I would not want to chance the bounce loosing the firing pin on the first barrel (or the second for that matter).

That could lead to a somewhat embarrassing predicament.

I had this happen to an inertia single trigger shotgun once, and a good rap to the butt with the barrels downrange did switch the barrels.

I think the right answer is to use what works for you. It has not been an issue for me,personally. But maybe that is because I have shot so many different types of weapons (thanks to my rich Uncle, Sam) that I just zone into what I am using at the time. IF a belt-fed double somes along, I'm set!

Jim,

Your "double dribble" meaning didn't sink in til after I'd posted and was getting some dinner.

I am a fan of double triggers, but if a fellow had a problem with them then I don't think he'd be risking life and limb to shoot a tested and tried single trigger double rifle.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
BTW, you can get a troublesome inertia trigger to switch to the second barrel by smacking the butt on the ground. Surely not ideal, but if someone is in a pickle...

JPK

JPK, this is only true if the rifle has an enertia cocked second barrel. That is even worse than a plain single trigger where the rifle cocks both barrels when broken.

everyone else, The thing some are forgetting here is, the broken single trigger may not fire either barrel. That has nothing to do with being profecient whith the rifle. It is my opinion, anyone going into the weeds with bite-backs, is going to be practiced with the rifle he chooses, if a brain exists, in his skull! All the practice in the world will not fix a broken trigger, double or single.

Very clear reasons have been offered here for the reliability failing with either system, and the result of each, So you make your own decission. Mine will always be a double trigger rifle, with a manual safety, but that is not a law, use what ever you want!

Just when I thought I had heard it all on this subject, and much more than has any relevance to reality, I remembered a double trigger shotgun I had once that used to double.

So you guys are all wet.

quote:

I remembered a double trigger shotgun I had once that used to double.

Is that the same shotgun you used when you hunted with Samuel Baker?

This may be off the point a little but if you were on safari and one of your double triggers ceased to work, would you continue to hunt dangerous game with it knowing all you had was a single-shot? Or, assuming you don't have a 2nd double barrel bibore with you, would you stitch to a big-bore bolt-action?

Switch to bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Switch to bolt.

Me too!

It is a two part question. If I had a good bolt rifle in a suitable caliber, a switch would be the obvious choice. If my only choice was to hunt with a double barreled single shot or not be able to hunt DG at all on an expensive safari, I would use it as a single shot but my hunting tactics would change significantly. I would not generally approach as close or I would pass on very close shots. I would also want to be absolutely sure of my first shot (we do that anyway---Right?). I would want to make sure I had time to reload the single shot if and when the #*%@ hits the fan.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
It is a two part question. If I had a good bolt rifle in a suitable caliber, a switch would be the obvious choice. If my only choice was to hunt with a double barreled single shot or not be able to hunt DG at all on an expensive safari, I would use it as a single shot but my hunting tactics would change significantly. I would not generally approach as close or I would pass on very close shots. I would also want to be absolutely sure of my first shot (we do that anyway---Right?). I would want to make sure I had time to reload the single shot if and when the #*%@ hits the fan.

465H&H

I agree completely, but that sittuation would always be, for me,to switch to the bolt rifle or a smaller double rifle, because my small rifle is always legal for DG! The smallest bolt rifle I ever take on safari is a 375 H&H, and the smallest double I take is a 9.3X74R!

The picking of my shots more carefully , and watching the angles would also apply though!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
because my small rifle is always legal for DG! The smallest bolt rifle I ever take on safari is a 375 H&H,

Holy sh-t! We agree on two points.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
because my small rifle is always legal for DG! The smallest bolt rifle I ever take on safari is a 375 H&H,

Holy sh-t! We agree on two points.

JPK

JPK, I totally agree with you on a lot more than two points! Nobody, however, will ever agree with everyone, on everything. Different perspectives are what makes a good debate, so people on the sidelines, have more than one opinion to choose from!

I am not old enough to remember like some of you. Firearms first came with one barrel one trigger. An enterprising gunsmith added a second barrel and a second trigger system. That was all they knew how to do back then. It is much easier to build a double trigger system. There are fewer parts and they are easier to build then the parts built for a single trigger system. I bet the single trigger system was marketed as faster and less prone to shooter error. Single trigger systems can be just as reliable as double trigger systems but they cost more and are harder to tune, because there are more parts and springs.
I think most doubling problems are caused by shooter error. It is just as easy to not get your finger out of the way with a single trigger system as it is with two triggers. The fix in both cases is a heaver trigger pull, to require more effort on the shooters part to release the hammer. My Tika512 never doubles with 3 lb double triggers when shooting 9.3 x 74r rounds, but with heavy 12ga duck loads it would fire both barrels once and a while if I pulled the front trigger first. I now pull the rear trigger first end of problem. It was shooter error, not a mechanical problem . If one trigger of a double trigger goes out you are still in business. If the single trigger system goes south you are out of business.

What the old timers used is of little help in this discussion. In many cases they had to use what they could get their hands on. I don’t think they had a choice of a single trigger system on a DR. I am not old enough to know. We need to ask Will or Mac they may remember..

JD

quote:

JD, don't worry about the snide little jouvenile remark about old age! you young whipper snapper!


Just Joshing you JD, but in responce to the idea expressed on the doluble/single trigger thread, single triggers were available, I REMEMBER,back when Taylor, and I first left Ireland, but the fact is they cost more, and were a hazard to the health!
Your Valmet doubleing with heavy loads, "IS" machanical. I have a valmet with a single trigger, and it is the same way. Light loads, it never doubles, but when I shoot hight brass goose loads in it it doebles quite often. The recoil is shakeing the sear out of it's notch in the striker! I love that cheap old shotgun, though, and when the doves are flying, though I have some very nice shotguns, it is the one I go to! Doubleing is always the result of one of two things! With a double trigger it is most times because the person shooting it is not used to it, and hits the back trigger when his finger slips off the front trigger. Machanicly indused doubleing has nothing to do with the triggers at all, but is a poorly fitted sear, notch engagement, and is fired because of recoil. If a single trigger malfunctions, it will not fire either barrel, in most cases, and if it does, when recocked will not fire either barrel, because something is either borken, or jammed. Doubleing is another matter all together!

Doubling with a single trigger gun can be caused by at least two different mechanical problems both related to trigger/sear adjustment. The first is as described by Mac and is usually caused by trying to lighten the trigger pull by filing the sear. There is not enough bite and the sear jumps off. The second occurs when the trigger resets with too little forward trigger movement. This is especially true with heavy recoiling loads as the trigger bounces off the trigger finger resets and then bounces back against the trigger during recoil causing the trigger to trip again. I have seen it happen in a few cases with Colt 1911 style pistols whose triggers have been adjusted incorrectly and in a couple of more cases with semi-auto shotguns.

4656H&H

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
What the old timers used is of little help in this discussion. In many cases they had to use what they could get their hands on. I don’t think they had a choice of a single trigger system on a DR.

JD

Not a very well informed post, as the exact opposite is true. Successful single trigger patents began to appear well before the Nitro Express cartridges did. Almost all of the single trigger designs in use in the British trade today were available by 1900, or are derivatives of those that were. Boss, Holland & Holland, Rigby, Greener, Beesley, Baker, Lancaster, Evans, Westley Richards, et cetera, ad nauseum, had single trigger designs in the marketplace by that time. Even the final version of Westley's famous "One Trigger" as built today dates from 1909. During the heyday of the Nitro Express double rifle (late 1890s to WWII), a far greater variety of single triggers were available to the buyer than is the case today, because there are far fewer double rifle makers today.

Despite their ready availability in the old days, the simple fact is that single triggers weren't popular for DRs back then, especially so the large bores, for the same reasons that they remain unpopular today, which we have already discussed.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
My Tika512 never doubles with 3 lb double triggers when shooting 9.3 x 74r rounds, but with heavy 12ga duck loads it would fire both barrels once and a while if I pulled the front trigger first.

That just means that you haven't mastered double triggers yet...

quote:

I now pull the rear trigger first end of problem. It was shooter error, not a mechanical problem .

...and taking the "rear trigger first" short-cut insures that you never will. Some folks just have more trouble keeping their finger on the front trigger during the recoil impulse than others - because they were trained on single triggers - and need more practice. If you can't use them in either order with no concern whatsoever of a double discharge, then you haven't mastered them yet. It's as simple as that.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The safest configuration is the zero trigger gun. Then there is no chance of a malfunction.

400
I agree with you that I have not mastered the double trigger system. For many years I shot speed type events. I trained to tap a trigger and get off it as fast as I could so it would reset as quickly as it could. I find that in many cases I can shoot my double trigger shotguns faster than my single trigger rigs. My SXS and over and under shotguns all have screw in chokes, I don't see a disadvange to pulling the rear trigger first.Is there a disadvantage to pulling the rear trigger on a double rifle? As stated in earlier post the most common errors made by a shooter of a double trigger gun is A (to pull the front trigger a second time instead of pulling the rear trigger) and to B(fail to clear the trigger finger from the path of the rear trigger has the gun comes back out of recoil causeing it to double.).
The Tika is 100% so far when I fire the rear trigger first (no doubleing at all), that proves to me that it is me, not the rifle failing. The day I had trouble with it doubleing, it was cold and I was letting the gun move in my hand too much. I was also shooting some of the hardest kicking loads I have ever shot. My tika has 3lb triggers, I don't know what my othere shot guns are set at, but they have never doubled. I am sure that they are set at more than 3lbs though.
Since I am training to hunt dangerous game, is it not best to use a method that avoilds the two most common shooter caused problems with double triggers. Please don't think I am pissing on your leg. I am asking for input,I need to know the how too's and why's. If I am lucky, I will make a second trip to africa. I will hunt for cape buff or pac elephant. I expect that it will to be my last trip. If I do it with a double in my hands, I will get it right if at all possible. I don't want so poor Ph haveing to clean up a mess caused by me not being prepared or worse haveing to shoot my trophy off me.

My knowledge of double rifles is very limited. I am 53 but I have some older buddies who tell me they double rifle were much more common down here in the late 50's or 60 's than they are now. I know of only one in the New Orleans area, other than my over and under tika in 9.3x74. Of the books I have read there seem to be two types of hunters at the turn of the centry. There were those who had unlimited resources such as Roauk who went for the sport,and those that did it for a living. The ones that did it for a living often had a hard time of it and had to make do with what they could afford. They did not often write much about what they shot.

JD

JD,

Don't let anybody spook you. I also fail to see why one "shouldn't" pull the rear trigger first.

There is so many "maybes" and "what ifs" around here it could drive anyone crazy.

You walk up to the animal and shoot the damn thing. That's pretty much it.

Well, we've pretty much shot this one out (no pun intended).

But not a single one of you can deny that a single trigger hurts the resale value / current valuation on any Double Rifle...

...Anybody dare dispute that fact?

JW

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
The Tika is 100% so far when I fire the rear trigger first (no doubleing at all), that proves to me that it is me, not the rifle failing.
JD

Mac here!

It could very well be that you were touching the rear trigger setting it off, but the fact that it doesn't double when you fire the back trigger first, doesn't PROVE it was you, and not the rifle! You see, in a double trigger rifle, rarely will both sear engagements be faulty. One may very well be up to specs, and the other faulty, so that the back sear may be the one going off under recoil. By switching to the the back trigger,(the offending sear), the other being in specs, would not fire, so no doubleing. IOW, the fireing of the front trigger (bottom barrel) first, can cause the back(top barrel) to fire as well, if that is the engagement that is not right. The rifle needs to be opened up, and the sear engagements inspected, because a sear engagement that is not right may fire at any bump of the rifle while loaded. A very unsafe condition!