Howdy fellas. Newbie with silly newbie questions here...

I am slowly coming to the realization that I have quite a few more years behind me than I have ahead of me, and it is time to start living some of the dreams. Working all those years that are behind me may even let me live a few of them.

One is a few trips to Africa, for buffalo and maybe even a jumbo or two or few. I am wanting to start gtting serious about selecting and ordering a decent double rifle. I was wondering what the general consensus (is there such a thing?) is about rifle makers. I see Merkel, Heym, Krieghoff and Searcy mentioned regularly, and they probably fit into my price envelope. Is anyone willing to offer som thoughts on these, or others? At the same time, I guess any thoughts on box-lock vs. sidelock, or benefits of an underlever would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your time, and any thoughts or comments you can provide.

there is a current thread on the Heym PH - watch that too for info.
IMO, the Heym is the best made/best price on the <$30,000 market. Fit and Finish are excellent and the balance is unbeatable. Handle as many makes as possible and the differences will be readily apparent. I have shot/handled Heym,Chapuis,Merkel,Kreighoff,Blaser,Rigby and by far the Heym felt best. (I have a 470 on order) A key point is to look at options as Heym includes many as standard that are quite expensive or not available on other makes.
I don't see a huge functional difference between box & side locks and a sidelock will about double the cost for not much apparent gain other than appearance (no flames please, I'm talking working gun .

RedRoot
One of the best things you could do is to come to a hunt/shoot of the DRSS [Double Rifle Shooters Society].

It is one place that you could see and shoot up to 20+ different double rifles.

Any of the names you have mentioned, and I will add Chapuis, would make you a good double.

I have to concur with NE450No2 that would by far be better than any narrative you would get on this forum or any other. Everyone has their favorite and is biased toward it. I have owned and shot Valmet,Chapuis,Heym,Merkel,Cogswell & Harrison,Otto Geyger doubles from 9.3x74r to 470NE.Somehow my favorite always seemed to be the one I had in my hands at the time. I will have to admit a fondness for the Heym and the Chapuis upon retrospect but like the Merkel I have now very well. If you could posssibly make it to one of the DRSS shoots I would highly reccommend it. No matter WHAT you buy it IS a significent investment for most of us.

quote:

IMO, the Heym is the best made/best price on the <$30,000 market. Fit and Finish are excellent and the balance is unbeatable. Handle as many makes as possible and the differences will be readily apparent. I have shot/handled Heym,Chapuis,Merkel,Kreighoff,Blaser,Rigby and by far the Heym felt best. (I have a 470 on order) A key point is to look at options as Heym includes many as standard that are quite expensive or not available on other makes.
I don't see a huge functional difference between box & side locks and a sidelock will about double the cost for not much apparent gain other than appearance (no flames please, I'm talking working gun

+1!

Crony Manion:

Chapuis is the best made double.

Spoken like a man that does not own nor shoot double rifles.

Do what I did, Go to Cabela's and other gun stores and try the Merkel, Heym, Krieghoff, Searcy, and Chapuis. See which ones you like the feel and fit of. I don't care what the rifle looks like as long as it fits me. My Merkel fits me like a glove. I liked the Kreighoff but, found out that I, under stress, could not get the decocker to work.

I'd suggest trying all of the rifle and I'd wait until this fall.

Heym is bringing our a 450/400 3 inch with 25 1/2 inch barrels or there abouts! Contact Chris at HeymUSA for details.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Crony Manion:

Chapuis is the best made double.

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Heym is a very good gun. I'd also look at some of the other Cont. makers Fanjoz, Grulla, Zeigenhan (sp),J. Just, Herr Geskie, Dennis Fontana, these are just a few of the makers that I have handled there guns. The are very nice and can be had between $25,000 and whatever your pocket book allows $$$$$$. They will be built to your spects and will be your dream.

Have fun picking it out. I cant think of anything more fun than picking out a double.

505ED

RedRoot
I have shot the folliwing new made doubles.
Several 470 Chapuis, a few Merkels in 470 and 2 in 500, a couple of Heym in 470, Searcy in 470,500 and 577, a Krieghoff in 500/416, and 470.

I could hunt with amy of them.
All were accurate and reliable.

I suggest you handle and shoot as many as you can.

How the double fits you is most important.

One think I have discovered, at a place that has several of the same kind of double, is if you try say 5 doubles of the same brand, each one will feel a little bit different.

RedRoot

N.E.450#2 is steering you totally in the right direction. You need to start off by shopping around and handling as many doubles as you can to start getting a feel for what your looking for. See what fits you and wich one looks and feels the best. Then get around some guys shooting them and make your final decistion after a couple of range sessions.

This will probably be a little hard to do because you don't find double rifles in every gun shop nor every day at most ranges. You may have to invest some time and money just in the shopping stage of aquiering the right double for your purpose.

I hade to look around a long time to find the right one for me when I bought my last double rifle. I ended up flying down to the Tulsa show to find what I wanted. That payed off for me but that was a long time ago and now days we have the internet and that helps us a lot.

I have'nt attended a D.R.S.S. event but as N.E.450#2 says that would be a good place to go to cut your teeth in the double rifle world. I hope to make it to one soon.

There really ar'nt any bad double rifles (except possibly some Spanish made guns) So the right choice is whats right for you.

Start your journey

I agree with AK's advice based on personal experience: It IS worth the investment in doing what it takes to actually handle/shoot the different makes. I spent about $500-$600 in travel, shipping, ammo before ordering the Heym and it was worth the money. In financial terms, it represents a small percentage of the overall cost (3%) which compares to incurring a $25 expense to buy an $800 factory gun. You'd drive half a tank of gas see a new factory gun you were interested in right ??

RedRoot
I found myself in the same situation concerning the purchase of a DR. I wanted something that fit me and had all the bells and whistles that I thought necessary. After a long search I was turned onto a rifle maker by the name of Nathan Heineke of Laramie, Wyoming. Nate was featured in a Rifle Magazine article where I first observed his work. After a lot of discussions we settled on a Holland style sidelock with ejectors, over the comb tang with full bottom tang in 450-400 3 1/4 with 26 inch chopper-lump barrels. Gold bead front with one standing and one folding rear for 100 and 200 yards, cheek-piece and leather convered pad, arrow cocking indicators, gold safe and Nates name in scroll on the sidelock. Disc set strikers with an extra set in the grip cap. Full engraving in the Woodward style of rose and scroll pattern. I'm going up to Larami in June to be fitted.

The action is being made by Keith Thomas in England. Keith builds rifles for Westley Richards. There are two other individuals involved in the barrels and rib. Nate will proof the rifle in July or August in Birmingham under his name. He will then finish it in Laramie. I'm supplying the stock blank of English walnut. Comes with fitted case and accessories. Will be regulated for the Westley Richards ammunition although I will be working handloads to match the factory ammo. the rifle was ordered in January and will be ready and in my hands in April of '08. Cost is right at $35,000.00. While not cheap it is what I want and I think worth the money. I had to sell some things to justify it, though. I'm preparing an article for DGJ when completed. I will post pictures here when they are available to show progress. Nate's phone number is 307-745-8592. Nate put in 5 years at Griffin and Howe before striking out on his own. If you wish to contact him his website is www.nlheineke.com

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Will be regulated for the Westley Richards ammunition although I will be working handloads to match the factory ammo.

I strongly recommend that you not use the Westley ammo. It's loaded by Wolfgang Romey in Germany. I know of one nice double that was blown to Kingdom Come with it, and I had a very bad experience with it myself. If you must use factory ammo for regulation, use Kynoch.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Dutch44 that is a tremendous price for a British made bespoke sidelock double rifle with the features you are getting. I am looking forward to seeing your photos next April!

Fellows - THANK YOU for all the replies and information. Your response is truly appreciated. I fully understand and agree with the suggestions to 'get out' and handle as many as possible. And yes - several hundred bucks travel expenses is a very worthwhile investment towards "getting it right".

I googled the DRSS, but didn't come up with anything. Then again, I'm not much of a computer whiz... Can anyone point me in the right direction to find a schedule of dates and locations for the DRSS shoots mentioned?

Our local shops here in Western Canada don't stock doubles, but if the big Cabelas down South are carrying a good stock then that is definitely an option as well. Recommended locations to visit?

Thanks again for all the info, and the time to convey it!

Instead of googling, just use the search function at the top of the page and type DRSS. You'll find a bunch of stuff there.

400 Nitro Express:
thanks for the heads up on the ammo. In addition, I understand that the London and Birmingham proof houses utilize different methods of proving the guns. Are you familiar with these different methods?


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
400 Nitro Express:
thanks for the heads up on the ammo. In addition, I understand that the London and Birmingham proof houses utilize different methods of proving the guns. Are you familiar with these different methods?

I'd sure like to hear the details of that. Not that I would be surprised that those guys in London have done something weird again. That isn't supposed to happen though, as the standards have been required by law to be uniform since 1813. UK became a CIP member in 1980, so more of the same. Hard to imagine that uniform standards can be maintained with different methodology.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by RedRoot:
Fellows - THANK YOU for all the replies and information. Your response is truly appreciated. I fully understand and agree with the suggestions to 'get out' and handle as many as possible. And yes - several hundred bucks travel expenses is a very worthwhile investment towards "getting it right".

I googled the DRSS, but didn't come up with anything. Then again, I'm not much of a computer whiz... Can anyone point me in the right direction to find a schedule of dates and locations for the DRSS shoots mentioned?

Our local shops here in Western Canada don't stock doubles, but if the big Cabelas down South are carrying a good stock then that is definitely an option as well. Recommended locations to visit?

Thanks again for all the info, and the time to convey it!

RedRoot:

Welcome to AR. You won't find any official references to DRSS outside of AR - we are an informal group of guys who like DRs. Most of us own DRs, but to be a member of DRSS you do not have to own a DR - we are open to anyone.

The DRSS membership tries to get together at least once a year to socalize, shoot DRs and do some hunting. It is truly a great time.

Our next DRSS get together is schedule over the weekend of June 15 to 18, 2007 at the 4K Ranch located just outside the town of Brady, Texas (about 4 hours from Dallas). We are going to have approximatley 25 guys in camp over the weekend. Some are coming for the entire time to hunt, shoot and socalize; others are only coming for the day to shoot and socalize.

Here is a link to the official coordination thread for the June DRSS get together:

June 2007 DRSS Hunt/Shoot

Here is a thread from the last DRSS get together we had at 4 K Ranch this past January:

DRSS at 4 K Ranch - January 2007

Prior to that, we got together at Camp Cooley in August 2006. Here is a link to that hunt recap:

DRSS at Camp Cooley, August 2006

If you are interested in possibly coming to the June DRSS get together, send me a PM and I'll answer any questions you have; I'm the coordinator for the hunt.

400 Nitro Express:

What I was led to believe is that Birmingham uses a high pressure cartridge while London utilizes an "oiled" cartridge. I don't know what an "oiled" cartridge is but I have heard this from two different sources now. Just wondering.

Dutch

Most proof houses in europe use a High pressure proof round to test guns before they are proof stamped.

I have wathced this process at the proof house in Munich. It usally blowes the primers and go'es off with a big bang.

If you oil a case it prevents the side walls of the case from adhearing to the chamber walls. This will alow for the case to blow back into the reciver and creates maxamum backthrust possible for the load. For a full understanding of this read chapter 11 vol 1 handbook for shooters and reloaders by P.O.Ackley.

I'd say it is a pritty smart system for proofing the guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
400 Nitro Express:

What I was led to believe is that Birmingham uses a high pressure cartridge while London utilizes an "oiled" cartridge. I don't know what an "oiled" cartridge is but I have heard this from two different sources now. Just wondering.

No, that isn't correct. Proof testing for rifles in the UK has always be conducted with high pressure "purple stripe" proof cartridges. This has been true since the advent of the metallic cartridge. In the UK this has always been law, not industry guideline. In the old days, the standards were in bolt thrust, not chamber pressure. "Standard" pressure was determined using greased cartridges in base crusher guns. When the UK joined CIP in 1980, the previous standards were converted to chamber pressure. Like the old standards, the current CIP standards are law in the UK.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Most proof houses in europe use a High pressure proof round to test guns before they are proof stamped.

Correct. Most European countries are also CIP members, and the CIP standards are the same everywhere. CIP rules require a proof load that produces 125% of MAP (maximum average chamber pressure) for rifles. This would be a proof pressure of 53,483 PSI for a .450/.400 3 1/4" NE. That's how it's done in Birmingham and London, as well as on the continent.

I think what you're hearing about are departures from the rules, not the norm. I think I read one of the instances that you mentioned. The London proof house didn't have any proof cartridges in the particular caliber needed, and the Proofmaster used the oiled cartridge as a stop-gap measure on his own discretion. I would not have been happy.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro

No I had not heard anything about that incident. I was only surmising what was going on based on dutch 44's question and knowing about Ackleys experiments with oiling cases when he was blowing up rifles.

I'm sure that is what the guy in London was thinking at the time but I really don't know what is going on in the London proof house. I think your the one here that is more up on that than the rest of us.

I should have been more clear about what I was saying previously.

Ak:

Sorry for the confusion. My comments were directed at Dutch, in answer to his question. I just quoted you as part of it.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burn gunpowder."

Ken Owens of Mosco,Tennessee (901-877-6853)made me my wonderful 4 bore double "Mastodon"..He also makes 600 and 577 doubles for well under 20k! He has been featured in Double Gun Journal several times,hunted Africa and does double gun repairs for all the big names all over the world,including regulating them.Ross Seifried has said Kens 600 Double was the most accurate he has ever shot! Here is the 4 bore in action! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHfzdQ8HWoI