Anyone ever try the 280 grain CEB solids in a Chapuis?
If so, how did they regulate and perform on game?

I picked up a box of the HP's. But I need to try them out soon.

They work great. I was having an issue getting any bullet to regulate in mine with the scope on but I finally found the combo. However, pretty much every load I tried shot fine without the scope. Give them a try, I think you'll like them.

I haven't shot any game with them yet however so can't comment on performance except on paper!

Mike, if you'd like a larger sample size, I'd be more than willing to let you touch off a few CEB's through my Chapuis as well to see if there's a load that shoots well for more than just one rifle, or if it's just individual rifle taste.

Randy, if you're interested in ordering some, let me know, I'd be game to order a box or two and split shipping.

The shipping isn't a problem! Talk to Cindy at CEB and she'll send them out flat rate mail w/o a problem.

I'll get some built soon and give then a try with a recipe that posted here recently. Then we can get together and light off some

I guess I need to try to find a box or two of the Hornady solids as well and give them both a try.
About half the critters I shoot in Alaska end up being taken with a solid but have yet to try them in my 9.3's

Lets hope we get some warm weather guys and maybe a trip to Birchwood is in order. It was -20 on my ride home from playing poker tonight..brrrrrrrrrrrrr. The way this winter is looking my Chapuis 30R will come in before this fricking cold snap ends.

Try the 210 9,3 Rator too.
Lighter and faster is good for a lot of animals.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
They work great. I was having an issue getting any bullet to regulate in mine with the scope on but I finally found the combo. However, pretty much every load I tried shot fine without the scope. Give them a try, I think you'll like them.

I haven't shot any game with them yet however so can't comment on performance except on paper!

Todd:

Where were you seating them? I shot a few and I seated them at the last crimping groove and I am pretty sure they were touching the lands in the right barrel. I usually don't crimp bullets in a double but because of the driving bands, the BBW# 13s don't have much purchase on the case neck and could migrate under recoil so I am concerned about seating them much deeper.

Dave, I'm seating them in the last groove as well and crimping.

Don't wish to intrude, but just wanted to show how this bullet tested out, incredible. If you get it to regulate, it's extreme for it's consistent penetration, and stability during terminals. You can do a lot with this bullet and it's 255 matching NonCon.



Just FYI
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Try the 210 9,3 Rator too.
Lighter and faster is good for a lot of animals.

I think it would be interesting to try the Raptor in some of these doubles as well. Right now they have not gone into production yet. They are stable and shoot great in my rifles, the 9.3 B&M. Both solid and noncon end. I would like to have a new tip to try out with them.

Funny thing the other day shooting and testing all the BBW#13s in 9.3 B&M. This in a 19 inch gun I have. A 280 BBW#13 at 2450 or so, 255 NonCon at 2600 or so, and the 210 Raptor at 2900 fps. At 50 yds all were the same POI? Fluke or not, don't know, but that is not supposed to happen. But it did none the less. I am looking at the Raptor as being the all around do everything sort of 9.3 Bullet for all lesser animals. Nearly perfect medium caliber I reckon!







Another, FYI
Michael

Michael is the "Raptor" basically a BBW#13 with a boat tail? Sorry I am sure you have it answered in one of your other threads but I have yet to run across it. And also what is the idea behind it?

Mac

Michael:

I know how well they perform. They are fantastic. The problem (if it is a problem) is that they are very "blunt". I loaded some up the other day seating them at the last crimping groove and shot them at the range. I closed the gun and then opened it again and took them out. It would appear to me that in the right barrel they were touching the lands. However, I did shoot them in each barrel and there did not appear to be any signs of excessive pressure. Primers were nice and rounded. With my regulation load, my 9,3 double usually shoots a little low so I use a cover or 12:00 o.clock hold. The BBW# 13s solids were shooting a little high. That means to me that they are going a little slower with less pressure so I need to increase the powder charge a bit. I haven't really shot enough to figure this out yet. I'll keep you posted.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
Michael is the "Raptor" basically a BBW#13 with a boat tail? Sorry I am sure you have it answered in one of your other threads but I have yet to run across it. And also what is the idea behind it?

Mac

Mac

Well, you could think of it that way if you have the NonCon side up! That boat tail is actually a BBW#13 Solid! Turn that Raptor with the solid end up, and it's a standard BBW#13 Solid, 67% meplat and 13 degree angle off the nose. Works too!

The actual idea came from BoomStick--You know, crazy boomy! HEH...... It took a few days for it to sink in on my side, then I told Dan, and then Dan and I had long conversations about it, and the idea grew on us!

Basics of the Raptor is this, The bands are located forward on the Noncon end so that the bullet can be used with a Talon Tip--If desired--and fit the magazines of most rifles, with tip installed. It can be shot with tip, without tip, or with the solid end up.

It will be available in all calibers, even rat guns, and we have been testing and working on them since last November or so. Problem with the rat calibers has been stability, and having bullets too heavy, and too long. Raptors will be by nature "Light For Caliber", like this 9.3 Raptor at 210 grs. However, that 210 gr Raptor has out performed every single expanding bullet I have ever tested in 9.3 caliber, even the big 286s, and 320s! It is WAY ahead of anything in the terminal performance category.

And, in all the ones I have tested in the rat guns it's the same story. It will take a while for folks to get used to a light for caliber bullet that out performs everything else in caliber, but they do.

You guys with the doubles, I have been doing some tests last week of the BBW#13 NonCons with and without tips. I know they don't look "Traditional" with tips in them, but at 50 yds these tips keep your velocity up by 100-150 fps on a standard BBW#13. Now they work just fine without the tips installed, but NonCons love velocity, the more velocity, the more trauma caused. You guys don't have magazines to worry with, a HUGE plus for the big long tipped NonCons, I think you guys would be served well to give them a try with tips, and see how they shoot for you. If they don't change the regulation or POI, you have no downside except you might consider them ugly! In this case, I might just show everyone those beautiful big wicked looking NonCon loads without the tips, then when I loaded the rifle maybe slip some loads I had in my back pocket that had tips in the gun! HEH...........

Michael

Dave

Hmmmmmm? Strange maybe, I also talked to Ken at DSC and he was having some similar issue with the 375s in those VC 375 Flanged guns. CCMDoc did something to his rifle I think to get that to work.

If your gun is closing, then what you can try is two things. Those bands are full size at the top, if your brass is tight enough, do not expand or bell the mouth, try carefully to seat them down midway, or to the top of the very top band, and see if NECK TENSION will hold them in at that point, without a crimp of course. This might seat it just a tad deeper and solve it.

Now I don't really like this, Sam uses this on some of his, in particular his 500 Nitro VC, is to seat to just above the very top band, and crimp over the top band. I don't like that, but sometimes it is what it is! Sam has had good success in that 500 Nitro with that. And his gun regulates better with the load that way. So I reckon there is no harm, I just don't like the way it looks!

In my 9.3 B&M I don't crimp anything with it, only neck tension, and it's a VERY SHORT neck of less than .250 inches, by purpose, I kinda like some short neck cartridges myself, and 9.3 is the shortest of the bigger B&Ms. All the Super Shorts are .250 by design. The rest of the bigger B&Ms have longer necks. Never an issue with neck tension in the 9.3 B&M. So maybe you try that first and see if you still have an issue.

What does the chrono say on your 9.3 loads?

Yes, keep me posted, see if you can sort that out.

Michael

Here is where I am crimping for my 375 Flanged and they fit without touching the lands. I have not tried to load longer though.

Michael:

Let me shoot some more rounds. I never crimp my bullets in my doubles. It just makes for higher pressure. In most double rifle cartridges, the neck is long enough to provide sufficient purchase on the bullet to hold it in place during recoil. The 9,3X74R has a nice long neck and doesn't have much recoil so seating them past the last crimping groove might just work fine. Let me work with this some more.

If others are having this problem as well, maybe we can visit with CEB about this and perhaps arrange to more the bands a bit further forward.

You guys are still missing the point. Fewer bands means less pressure and less barrel strain. Crimping is needed in doubles so the round opposite the fired round won't creep forward during recoil. I originally had designed the bullet with only 2 bands but it was decided to make 4 bands to improve neck tension. Adding or widing bands defeats the purpose. If you need more neck tension use a smaller or no expander button. In bolt trash it really doesn't matter much. In most doubles the bullet needs to be seated below the top band and crimped. Seat first and then crimp in a second operation to avoid crumpled necks. If your gun doesn't like that then seat it to the second band and so on.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

Let me shoot some more rounds. I never crimp my bullets in my doubles. It just makes for higher pressure. In most double rifle cartridges, the neck is long enough to provide sufficient purchase on the bullet to hold it in place during recoil. The 9,3X74R has a nice long neck and doesn't have much recoil so seating them past the last crimping groove might just work fine. Let me work with this some more.

If others are having this problem as well, maybe we can visit with CEB about this and perhaps arrange to more the bands a bit further forward.

Your experience has certainly been different then mine. With my 6 doubles they all require crimping. I doubt there is that much noticeable difference in peak pressures when it comes to crimping rounds. Certainly there is a little more pressure initially but I think it helps in uniform ignition as well. Maybe Sam and Michael can do a little test for us to see if crimping makes much difference in peak pressures. Ext time they are slinging bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458: However, that 210 gr Raptor has out performed every single expanding bullet I have ever tested in 9.3 caliber, even the big 286s, and 320s! It is WAY ahead of anything in the terminal performance category.

In what terminal performance increases?

Does the bullet drive straighter than a solid or deeper than a soft point that already drives through most game?

quote:

In what terminal performance increases?

Does the bullet drive straighter than a solid or deeper than a soft point that already drives through most game?

AKStick

Yes, terminal performance, transfer of trauma to target is extreme, animal tissue and test medium in all the BBW#13 NonCons.

No, the NonCon does not drive deeper than a PROPER designed Solid--I am talking "Conventional" expanding bullets.


Mac

That is a great photo of your Flanged. That is where I like to seat things exactly, long as it shoots at that point, and I think most will. Some won't like Sam says. Damn Good looking ammo, eh!



Sam, Bolt Trash? HEH..... The last round down likes to push in, recoil banging front of bullet, beating it in. Crimps required, unless neck tension is sufficient--all B&Ms have enough neck tension to seat in the middle of the top band, no crimp needed, no movement last round down. 500 MDM different story, can't hardly get enough crimp on those to keep that last round from beating backwards, have to have that bullet seated on some compressed loads and crimp to keep it from moving.

I still like between top and second band down--just looks GOOD!!!! HEH.......

M

Michael there is no way those bullets are pushing in. With the way you load there is no space left for the bullet to move into the case. Even more reason to crimp because the bullet is being pushed out by the powder!

We can certainly add crimps verses no crimps to our 500 tests.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael there is no way those bullets are pushing in. With the way you load there is no space left for the bullet to move into the case. Even more reason to crimp because the bullet is being pushed out by the powder!

We can certainly add crimps verses no crimps to our 500 tests.

HEH.......... Hell, what do you want to do, be cheap on powder? Use it all! Just mash it in there till the case bulges, then you have 1 gr too much!



M

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

Crimping is needed in doubles so the round opposite the fired round won't creep forward during recoil.

Sam

Sam:

As always, I respect your opinion but I have to disagree with you here. Most double rifle cartridges have long necks that provide plenty of purchase on the bullet so crimping is unnecessary and may be counter productive. Even the little 9,3X74R has a neck that is 142 percent of bullet diameter. Crimping only serves to drive up pressure and, if not done properly, can prevent your gun from closing at a critical moment. ("Crimping is generally not recommended for doubles because it can prevent the rifle closing if incorrectly done." African Dangerous Game Cartridges, Pierre vander der Walt.) Just make sure to clean all the lube out of the case neck before you seat your bullet.

Now, I looked at this again this morning. When properly trimmed, the very bottom driving band does not assist in holding the bullet in place because even when seated with the case neck just below the first driving band, the bottom band is below the case neck. So, seating the BBW#13 solid with the case neck at the top of the first driving band may actually hold it it in place better.

Dave,

I not saying you have to crimp but a recomend it highly with the CEB 4 band bullets. You may be right in the seating depth on the 9.3, I have not loaded any yet. If the base band is out of neck when seated deep then I would seat out alittle more.
As for crimping and the rounds not chambering this is why I say seat first and crimp in a second operation. If you are using a gun against dangerous game you should always make sure every round goes in gun and closes with no problem.
As for crimping adding to pressure Michael and I plan on testing this as well.

Sam

Snowwolfe,

While I can't comment on the .366 out of the Chapuis, I can say that its near equivalent - the CEB #13 out of my Verney-Carron 375 Flanged Magnum -

were easy to regulate with and without the scope in place;

both Non-Con and Solid went to the same point of aim - with irons and with scope;

and both worked exceedingly well on game.

The Non-Con turned the inside of dad's leopard into Strawberry Daiquiri mix on its way through and through.

The the CEB#13 solid might still be flying after passing through our elephant as he was going down.

Can't imagine why they would not be as good out of the 9.3x74R.

Good luck with the CEBs - I have had nothing but good good experiences with CEB bullets.

And I seat my CEBs as in McKay's photo and as Sam describes and crimp in a second step just below the most forward band as does Sam.
No reason other than that's just what I do and I get very consistent velocities through the Oehler 35P.

Dave, just to be clear, I seat mine the same as McKay's photo also, and in 2 steps. I will check out the issue on my Chapuis when I get back home.

Todd