Yep, those are strong words.

I did a lot of research and had concluded to buy a VC made to fit me in 500 NE. Just before I did it, an e mail arrived offering me a jazzed up Merkel at a really good price. I bought the Merkel. It arrived last week.

I bought 80 rounds of ammo last week and also picked up the rifle . I just couldn't wait to shoot it. My schedule precluded me shooting it. I was supposed to Boston today. The flight got delayed severely and I bagged it all together. I decided to leave a little early go fire off a few rounds.

I am all amped up today having just got the DVD of my last safari. I couldn't wait. I grabbed the rifle and a box of ammo and took off. I got to the range and got ready. I took careful aim and BOOM! Good lord this thing kicked the living sh@t of me. I was thinking, damn I didn't expect that. The Good
news was that I hit the target. I should add that shot the back trigger first. Next, I tried to shoot the front trigger. I pulled it. Nothing. I tried again. Nothing. I broke the gun open. Curiously, both cartridges ejected. Hmmmm.... The damn thing doubled on me!

I thought about it. I know I pulled the rear trigger first. I loaded one barrel with an empty and one barrel with live round. I pulled the trigger. Boom. I tried the other trigger. Nothing. It had doubled again! To make a long story short, it doubled 4 times in a row!

I am sending it back and getting my money back.

I feel for ya Larry! I hate those 500s even when you don't double 'em!

Sorry. I failed to say that this was a 470

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Sorry. I failed to say that this was a 470

Larry,

Fortunately, you can get it repaired quickly. If you need me to help, pm me and we can get it taken care of quickly.

Doubling can happen in any DR. I'm happy to help, so please don't hesitate to contact me.

Mike

its the front trigger may be set to light they are known for that at merkel,i have had it on my 470 off and on3 times,i have cocking indicators so i ave single shot it awhile and its ok now,save your brass i will reload for you i will pm my cell to you,you need to get the front trigger let off weight tested to see what it is

Wait you got a bargain--

you received a very rare & special Merkel Model--

Der ScnottenKnockker

Larry,

Sorry to hear of your disappointment - one of the worst feelings especially after making a tough decision betwen two good choices.

You are not the first to describe that event - if you search these pages you will find others includign some very experienced DR folk.

It really comes down to confidence. If Mike can help take care of it, I would take him up on the offer but only if, after the fix I had absolutely no doubt of the reliability of the gun.

That's not calling into question the repair or Mike - who I hold in high regard. But you're the one who will weild that DR in the face of potential danger and you have to be 100% confident in yourself and your equipment.

As I said - I would take Mike up on the offer, but don't let me or anyone else sway your decision.

WHEN IT DOUBLES IT PUSHED YOU BACK A FEW STEPS...and wtf goes through your mind i talk to the guys in alabama its a problem easily fixed but it pisses you off you spent good money and you want it done right the first time

When you first shoot a DR, new or used - but especially used, you should only load 1 cartridge and a 2nd only to see if it doubles.


EDIT
And with used one's, try omehow to fire it where you don't have it right next to your face
- JUST in case something is wrong that you don't know about.


I do the above because I had a WR DR 500/465 Double on me after buying it
so for all future one's, safety first !!! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
When you first shoot a DR, new or used - but especially used, you should only load 1 cartridge and a 2nd only to see if it doubles.

Good advice!
I better remember that when I finally pick up my 600NE!

First time I shot a Merkel .500 it doubled on me. Then a second time. I called Herbert at GSI. He told me how I wasn't shooting it correctly and that my finger had raked the rear trigger. I informed him that I had been shooting double rifles with double triggers for over 30 years (at that time). I shipped it down to Trussville. Herbert consulted with the brains in Suhl. Got the gun back and all was good. Unfortunately, I never really got over that experience with Merkels. It's hard to forget.

I shot the rear trigger first. That was not an issue .

Like you DD, I am not going to get over this.

Gentlemen I own two Merkel double rifles, a 9.3X74R and a 470NE and I have only doubled the 9.3 one time when it was new, and I felt my finger rake the back trigger.

Neither one of them again in ten years of owning them nor have I doubled any of the dozen or so other big bore Merkels I've fired.

Haveing said that I have had three people double my 9.3, and two to double my 470NE, and in every case except my doubleing, the shooter was firing the back trigger first!

IMO, this is because the proper way to fire a double rifle is the front trigger first. That is why the front trigger always has a lighter pull than the back trigger. I have never seen a Merkel doubled, in any chambering, when the front trigger is pulled first.

If you intend firing the back trigger first it would be a good idea to have the enguagement made a little heavier on the front trigger. Also if the front trigger on your 470 is a "SET TRIGGER" that nees to change as well. There is absolutely no need for a set trigger on a 470NE or 500NE double rifle, regardless of make!

.................All only my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
The damn thing doubled on me!

A 940 NE.......wow Larry that's hardcore!!!

Brett

Now that was funny!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
When you first shoot a DR, new or used - but especially used, you should only load 1 cartridge and a 2nd only to see if it doubles.


EDIT
And with used one's, try omehow to fire it where you don't have it right next to your face
- JUST in case something is wrong that you don't know about.


I do the above because I had a WR DR 500/465 Double on me after buying it
so for all future one's, safety first !!! LOL

A little late with the rain forecast!

Never would have happened with a single trigger.

So, for us peons, how would a rifle double when pressing the rear trigger first?
Peter.

HI Larry

I have just had a bit of trouble with my Merkel (500N)as the rear trigger will not fire.
While I was discussing this with my smith he mentioned he had encountered the same problem you describe.

In his words it was to do with the Merkels being designed to fire front trigger first.

He said he had been sent a double that had consistantly managed to double each time the owner pulled the (rear) trigger. This particular rifle and the problems encountered became a court room stoush. The owner was determind that the rifle was to be used rear trigger first.

His finding was that when the front trigger was pulled there was a saftey sear or "block" of sorts that prevented the rear trigger from firing during the recoil and shock form the right barrel (front trigger) being fired.
However when the rear trigger was pulled first the rifle doubled because the front trigger did not have that saftey sear or "block" that would prevent the right barrel (front trigger) firing.

The firing of the right barrel was called an sympathetic discharge, or in my laymans understanding the recoil and concussion caused the front trigger to fire due to the lack of the "block" or saftey.

I find this plausable.

Hope this helps,

Regards

Stu

So what is the bargain price this "POS" Merkel is going for now that it is used and defective?

feel free to shoot me a PM.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stuey:

In his words it was to do with the Merkels being designed to fire front trigger first.

]

Dang, this is going to fly in the face of the two-barrels-two guns crowd.

I figger you gotta print out an instruction sheet and tape it on the side of the stock.

It might start something like this:

1) If the rear firing pin is broke, pull the rear trigger anyway and the left barrel will go off, unless the front trigger is for the right barrel, then reverse this operation until it goes off.

2) Whoa, I'm gonna need a bigger stock to get this all down.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
So, for us peons, how would a rifle double when pressing the rear trigger first?
Peter.

That is a fair question, but one I thought I had already answered!

Normally the front trigger is filed to a lighter pull than the back trigger, and for a rifle without intercepting sears,(like the Merkels) that stops the tumblers from going off from the recoil of the other barrel, the lighter the off side trigger pull the more likely it will be dislodged by the recoil of the other barrel. This is the case with Merkel double rifle in my experience the front trigger is always much lighter pull than the back trigger. IMO, that is the way they should be, the light trigger pull on the first barrel fired is so one can make a better placed first shot. this is the same reason the smaller double rifle are normally fitted with a set trigger on the right (FRONT) trigger for a better accurate first shot.


The Merkel double rifle is not normally fitted with interceptors, so a “mechanical” doubling can occur from the recoil of the left barrel, disengaging the very light sear engagement of the right barrel. The doubling of the left barrel when pulling the right trigger first is usually caused by what is known a “STRUMMING” with the trigger finger slipping off the front trigger, and contacting the back trigger setting it off as well. This is the result of poor shooter control.

SO!!!! If you want to fire the back trigger first on a double rifle, then the trigger pull on the front trigger needs to be heavy enough to avoid the mechanical doubling!

Additionally, if proper trigger control is maintained there is no need to fire the back trigger first, unless you simply like it that way. If you like it that way then have a smith make the trigger pull on the right barrel heavier, or suffer doubling!

…………………………. ........................................

quote:

Additionally, if proper trigger control is maintained there is no need to fire the back trigger first, unless you simply like it that way. If you like it that way then have a smith make the trigger pull on the right barrel heavier, or suffer doubling!

Oh, come on Mac. The old saw about choosing between barrels for a soft or a solid on a buff, blah, blah, blah. I guess that is out the window now?

Not every Merkel is going to accidentally double but it seems excuses are being offered for poor designs, maybe?

I cannot believe - well I can actually - that any "sane" maker would not fit intercepting sears on such a rifle. I suppose it is built to a price and not up to a quality.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
I cannot believe - well I can actually - that any "sane" maker would not fit intercepting sears on such a rifle. I suppose it is built to a price and not up to a quality.

Does Sabatti and others have intercepting sears ?

The market wants "cheap", so that's what they get.

.

quote:

The Merkel double rifle is not normally fitted with interceptors, so a “mechanical” doubling can occur from the recoil of the left barrel,

Can they be retro-fitted?

The lack of intercepting sears is certainly not limited to Merkel’s working line of double rifles! In fact most of the working doubles even the old Britts are sans interceptors, and they are normally only offered as a costly up grade! The only one I know of that has them from bottom to top is Heym.

Now I don’t know if any of the others offer them on custom up grade rifles, but I doubt they do. The Merkels are not a poor design, and the back trigger doubling is not a design problem but a shooter problem. This is an easy fix if you want to shoot the left barrel (back trigger) first, then simply increase the pull weight on the right trigger!

From the below (from Merkel's website) it appears the Merkel sidelock has intercepting sears:

SAFARI SIDE-BY-SIDE RIFLE 160AE - THE SIDELOCK AFRICA RIFLE
Details
SAFARI SIDE-BY-SIDE RIFLE 160AE:removeable V-spring sidelocks with intercepting sear | steel action | Greener-style cross bolt and double bottom bite | excellent double trigger with articulated front trigger | manual safety with intercepting sears | with ejectors | Safari express sight | pistol grip, cheek piece and straight stock | rubber recoil pad

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Now I don’t know if any of the others offer them on custom up grade rifles, but I doubt they do.

Verney-Carron does offer intercepting sears as an option.

Firstly, I don't have anything against the Merkel design, but I've gotta say that NO double rifle should ever come new from the factory with a built in double discharge feature, if the left barrel is fired first, regardless of who the maker was.

You should be able to fire either barrel first without any risk of a DD.
Sure you can have a gunsmith fix the DD problem, but IMO there should be no need to do so with a new DR.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
Firstly, I don't have anything against the Merkel design, but I've gotta say that NO double rifle should ever come new from the factory with a built in double discharge feature, if the left barrel is fired first, regardless of who the maker was.

You should be able to fire either barrel first without any risk of a DD.
Sure you can have a gunsmith fix the DD problem, but IMO there should be no need to do so with a new DR.

I agree with the above. And I had thought the solid in one bbl and the soft in the
other bbl for buff had been deemed by many experienced DG hunters to be a good
plan. So a D/R ought to be able to be fired either trigger first; though the usual
course of action should be forward trigger pulled first.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Never would have happened with a single trigger.

I don't know about that.. I had a Ruger red Label in 20 GA that started doubling on me with a single pull of the single trigger. Just saying, it can happen.

Shoulda got a Sabatti................

Dadgummit I thought Sabatti's where the only double rifle that had issues.

Then you coulda had a broken double and a savings of $2,500.00.


.

Larry that will be hell on pigs. They will be dead right there.

Mike

You don't have these problems with a Krieghoff or a Blaser.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
IMO, this is because the proper way to fire a double rifle is the front trigger first. That is why the front trigger always has a lighter pull than the back trigger. I have never seen a Merkel doubled, in any chambering, when the front trigger is pulled first.

If you intend firing the back trigger first it would be a good idea to have the enguagement made a little heavier on the front trigger. Also if the front trigger on your 470 is a "SET TRIGGER" that nees to change as well. There is absolutely no need for a set trigger on a 470NE or 500NE double rifle, regardless of make!

I agree with Mac here, I think he is giving you sound advice. I wouldn't give up on the rifle yet.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
Firstly, I don't have anything against the Merkel design, but I've gotta say that NO double rifle should ever come new from the factory with a built in double discharge feature, if the left barrel is fired first, regardless of who the maker was.

You should be able to fire either barrel first without any risk of a DD.
Sure you can have a gunsmith fix the DD problem, but IMO there should be no need to do so with a new DR.

I agree with the above. And I had thought the solid in one bbl and the soft in the
other bbl for buff had been deemed by many experienced DG hunters to be a good
plan. So a D/R ought to be able to be fired either trigger first; though the usual
course of action should be forward trigger pulled first.

I fully agree with both of you! No new double rifle should double discharge no matter witch trigger is pulled, especially a NEW ONE. All I'm saying is if it does it is an easy fix! I fire either barrel on both my Merkels without problem using the back trigger first, but others seem to for some reason.

However I was under the empression that the rifle that started this was not bought new, but from a previous owner, and who knows how it was cared for! If new then Merkel needs to fix it, or rturn his money.

In the case of the single trigger avoiding a double discharge they don't always! My youngest son, when he was eight years old fired my Krieghoff O/U 12 ga, using high brass duck loads and it had a double discharge with a selective single trigger.

No double shotgun or rifle is imune,especially one without interceptors, and interceptors will not prevent it with the "STRUMMING" of the triggers!

K-guns and Blaser S2s are only imune if they are not cocked!

........................................................GONE

No firearm, rifle or shotgun, should double no matter which trigger is pulled first! One of the big advantages of a double trigger shotgun is to give the gunner an instant choice of which choke he uses in a given situation. It would be absolutely unacceptable to have doubling on heavy recoiling waterfowl guns whenever you chose to shoot your tight barrel first.

Intercepting sears are typically found on higher end guns. Of course, shotguns usually have heavier trigger pulls than rifles so maybe part of the issue is that the rifle makers are simply attempting to get the lightest pulls possible without going to the expense of intercepting sears.

I've had 2 or 3 guns double on me and interestingly enough, they have all been on single trigger guns.

Funny when a post was made that a new Sabatti would double it was called a piece of $hit and worse. Now a Merkel does it and the comments are it is no big deal it can be fixed. Or a user problem.

So I'm trying to understand if a $5000 has an issue it is because it was built cheap. When a higher cost rifle does the same thing it is a user issue or a simple fix.

Why the double standard??

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Funny when a post was made that a new Sabatti would double it was called a piece of $hit and worse. Now a Merkel does it and the comments are it is no big deal it can be fixed. Or a user problem.

So I'm trying to understand if a $5000 has an issue it is because it was built cheap. When a higher cost rifle does the same thing it is a user issue or a simple fix.

Why the double standard??

Blasphemy!!!
We cast you off ... you devil, you dog ... you devildog!