The gun was brand new. At least thatis what was represented to me. It came from a large retail chain. I see nothing to make me think otherwise. It is headed back from where it came.

Retreever: I recon we will have to whack those pigs with a lowly bolt 458 Lott!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I have had three people double my 9.3, and two to double my 470NE, and in every case except my doubleing, the shooter was firing the back trigger first!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I fire either barrel on both my Merkels without problem using the back trigger first, but others seem to for some reason.

It would be pretty hard for different shooters to double discharge both rifles as a result of shooter error, when firing the back trigger.

Any DD which occurs when the rear trigger is fired, is more likely to be caused by a problem with the rifle rather than a problem with the shooter/s.

Thank god I bought a Sabatti, I hear waaaay to much bad stuff on the internet about those Merkels!

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Funny when a post was made that a new Sabatti would double it was called a piece of $hit and worse. Now a Merkel does it and the comments are it is no big deal it can be fixed. Or a user problem.

So I'm trying to understand if a $5000 has an issue it is because it was built cheap. When a higher cost rifle does the same thing it is a user issue or a simple fix.

Why the double standard??

Ramrod if an occasional doubling was the only problem with the Sabatti I would be the first to agree with you on the double standard accusation. It is easy to let a double out that had a sear engagement that was at a critical angle, or with the toumbler spring that slightly weak, but never double discharged while being regulated, and if it does get out that way the maker needs to fix the rifle. However no double rifle should ge out of the maker's shop that was never regulated, regardless of price or make!



The doubling is a cheap fix, but regulation is not! No double barreled rifle or shotgun is ammune from double discharge whether from a shooter source, or a misscut sear at the factory or from some damage caused by misshandling or simple wear. However a rifle that comes out to the factory with either of these maladies is not something to engender confidence in any make. However when so many have all these defenciences out of the box, it seems to me it is far easier to understand the low lack of confidence in that one in particular!

MacD37 I had asked the question pretty much tongue in cheek. Seemed everyone was quick to go negative on the Sabatti but defend others.

I haven't followed all the Sabatti threads. I knew of the doubling problem or maybe it was second barrel not firing.

I hadn't read so much the no regulation but more the method of regulation. Might need to do a search and do some reading.

Won't be buying either in the near future. Paying for the wifes new Can-Am.

Hello:
I have a 9,3x74R Merkel from ten years ago. Time ago, say four or five years, it began doubling (twice in the same day on a driven hunt). The problem traced to a small steel particle lodged in soma part of the left trigger. My gunsmith cleaned it, and set the two triggers, right at 3 pounds and left at four pouds. The rifle has behaved well since then.
If your double shoots well, besides the "little" trouble of doubling in a .500, I would let a good gunsmith inspect the triggers, fix the problem and keep the rifle. Usually, the fixing is easy and cheap.

Good luck

Antonio, Madrid.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Now I don’t know if any of the others offer them on custom up grade rifles, but I doubt they do.

Verney-Carron does offer intercepting sears as an option.

The Fanzoj boxlock has them as standard

Don't feel too bad as I had a H&H Dominion grade in 465 that would do the same thing! What a surprise! No fun at all.

quote:

Ramrod if an occasional doubling was the only problem with the Sabatti I would be the first to agree with you on the double standard accusation

Hi Mac:

News to me. No where I neither read, nor heard of a Sabatti doubling as of yet. Any references will be of great help.

Thank you

Good hunting/shooting and God's best

Malek

I double checked with the folks at Merkel last week, and Mac is right; Merkel DR's are inherently designed to fire the front trigger first. This is important not only to help eliminate the chance of a DD, but also to help with regulation.

All double rifles are regulated by shooting the right barrel first, then the left within 10 seconds knowing that there is a heat transfer after shooting the right barrel. The front trigger is also set lighter than the rear.

Just FYI.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I double checked with the folks at Merkel last week, and Mac is right; Merkel DR's are inherently designed to fire the front trigger first. This is important not only to help eliminate the chance of a DD, but also to help with regulation.
Just FYI.
Mike

So if I decided that I want to shoot the solid in my left barrel first, then I would have to worry about a POSSIBLE "double discharge due to factory design" as well as the buffalo right in front of me?

I think I'll pass.

I agree. One of the biggest advantages of a double is the ability to load a soft and a solid (or so I'm told) and shooting the left barrel first should not present a problem, if it does that is definitively a design issue. Not to drag out old issues but the Sabbati did not show any difference in printing if I fired the left barrel first. jorge

Maybe its a built in feature to beat your PHs shot

I've got to try this again with my merkel's because I have never had it DD and I do run my DR's through a sequence before I use them to make sure they work any which way.

Sometimes, just sometimes over here I have only 1 round left or it just happens I throw one round in the left barrel OR it is a situation where I want to put a finisher in so will use the left barrel (to at least attempt to even up the shooting of the gun).

.

My Searcy has never cared which one goes first. Like 500, I try to keep em even, so if I fire the right barrel when hunting and dont have need to shoot the left, then the left barrel goes first next time.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I double checked with the folks at Merkel last week, and Mac is right; Merkel DR's are inherently designed to fire the front trigger first. This is important not only to help eliminate the chance of a DD, but also to help with regulation.
Just FYI.
Mike

So if I decided that I want to shoot the solid in my left barrel first, then I would have to worry about a POSSIBLE "double discharge due to factory design" as well as the buffalo right in front of me?

I think I'll pass.

All of the older Merkel's do not have true intercepting sears, but do have what Herbert described as a "safety block" that is recoil inertia operated to prevent a DD when the right barrel is shot first. With the very crisp triggers of the older Merkels, a DD is possible if the left barrel is fired first.

However, on all the new guns being imported (monoblocks), Merkels will not DD due to redesigned sear engagement regardless of which trigger is pulled first.

If you have an older gun that is doubling on you, it's a simple fix. Either send the gun back to Merkel or send it to me. Either way, the gun will get to Herbert at Merkel who will replace the sear and hammers with the new models which will fix your gun to meet your needs.

There could be an exception if you own a gun that is say over 15 years old before Merkel USA/GSI/Steyr represented the guns.

I believe Herbert will replace the sear & hammers at no charge as long as the gun has not been altered.

DD's are usually user error, and if the front trigger is pulled first, usually the shooter has strummed the rear trigger without knowing it.

Hope this helps, Mike

The answer to this has been found! In the new thread! "Answer to an old thread on double discharge"

It turns out the Merkel big bore has an interceptor on the left barrel to avoid double discharge when the right (front) trigger is pulled first, So when you pull the left trigger first the light pull on thje right barrel cane be discharged. Merkel has always said the ir rifles are designed to pull the right trigger first! Now we know why!

Lest you think the problem is limited, JJ has my Chapuis now and told me just today that the triggers needed work and that the rear, was way too light. I had indeed experienced a couple of doubles as had another friend of mine with a lot of double rifle experience. It happens and is part of the conditions of buying and owning rifles.
I feel for you having to deal with the problem in a new rifle.
Having JJ or any really experienced gunsmith go through a rifle adds value to a rifle and a lot of confidence in me once I get the work completed.
Frank

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Sorry. I failed to say that this was a 470

.940 6.5" NE you say? .....ouch!

Brett

PS. Ask Frostbit about his experience with a .900 no. 4........

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
You don't have these problems with a Krieghoff or a Blaser.

Now that's funny right there! Just keep stirring it up Dave. But you're right. I had a new Merkel in .470 and it was prone to doubling. One of the reasons that I got the Blaser and I don't have that problem with it.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I double checked with the folks at Merkel last week, and Mac is right; Merkel DR's are inherently designed to fire the front trigger first. This is important not only to help eliminate the chance of a DD, but also to help with regulation.

All double rifles are regulated by shooting the right barrel first, then the left within 10 seconds knowing that there is a heat transfer after shooting the right barrel. The front trigger is also set lighter than the rear.

Just FYI.

Mike

When I bought my Merkel (450/400), I was told that the rifle is designed to fire the front trigger first and that doing so would minimize risk of doubling. I think it was the dealer (who is very into double rifles) who told me that.

I have always fired the front trigger first and have had zero problems.

Hugh

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The answer to this has been found! In the new thread! "Answer to an old thread on double discharge"

It turns out the Merkel big bore has an interceptor on the left barrel to avoid double discharge when the right (front) trigger is pulled first, So when you pull the left trigger first the light pull on thje right barrel cane be discharged. Merkel has always said the ir rifles are designed to pull the right trigger first! Now we know why!

Mac,
Which new thread?

A double should not double reguardless of which trigger is pulled first. What if you have a solid in one barrel and a soft in the other? You should be able to choose which to shoot first. A double trigger gun should be fired front trigger first always unless you are choosing to shoot the back for a different bullet. All dangerous gun guns should have fairly heavy trigger pulls so you don't have a discharge when you don't want it.
Most doubling is caused by improper hold of the gun. If a gun does it all the time the sears should be checked for proper engagement.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
A double should not double reguardless of which trigger is pulled first. What if you have a solid in one barrel and a soft in the other? You should be able to choose which to shoot first. A double trigger gun should be fired front trigger first always unless you are choosing to shoot the back for a different bullet. All dangerous gun guns should have fairly heavy trigger pulls so you don't have a discharge when you don't want it.
Most doubling is caused by improper hold of the gun. If a gun does it all the time the sears should be checked for proper engagement.

EXACTLY!!!!

quote:

All double rifles are regulated by shooting the right barrel first, then the left within 10 seconds knowing that there is a heat transfer after shooting the right barrel.

Mike, I had not heard this before ...

That is what Ken and VC recommend as well, preferably five secs or so between shots.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Mac,
Which new thread?

.................title "Answer to an old thread on double discharge"

No double-discharge whatsoever with my Merkel .500NE, new last year.

Damn, I see this old thread I started has arisen from the dead.

I had lost confidence in the Merkel after doubling 4 times in a row. I have a VC 500 NE that I recon I shot at least 300 times without a single incidence of doubling.

Re-posting this so anyone who owns a Merkel can have this taken care of if they so choose.

quote:

All of the older Merkel's do not have true intercepting sears, but do have what Herbert described as a "safety block" that is recoil inertia operated to prevent a DD when the right barrel is shot first. With the very crisp triggers of the older Merkels, a DD is possible if the left barrel is fired first.

However, on all the new guns being imported (monoblocks), Merkels will not DD due to redesigned sear engagement regardless of which trigger is pulled first.

If you have an older gun that is doubling on you, it's a simple fix. Either send the gun back to Merkel or send it to me. Either way, the gun will get to Herbert at Merkel who will replace the sear and hammers with the new models which will fix your gun to meet your needs.

There could be an exception if you own a gun that is say over 15 years old before Merkel USA/GSI/Steyr represented the guns.

I believe Herbert will replace the sear & hammers at no charge as long as the gun has not been altered.

DD's are usually user error, and if the front trigger is pulled first, usually the shooter has strummed the rear trigger without knowing it.

Just wondering?? Any problem with the 45/70 Baikal doubling?? Serious question, so no wisecracks please!!

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Funny when a post was made that a new Sabatti would double it was called a piece of $hit and worse. Now a Merkel does it and the comments are it is no big deal it can be fixed. Or a user problem.

So I'm trying to understand if a $5000 has an issue it is because it was built cheap. When a higher cost rifle does the same thing it is a user issue or a simple fix.

Why the double standard??

Baikals have such heavy trigger pulls and deep sear notches that they won't double. Or go off when you drop them. In my experience with them.

Larry:
Being the gentleman you have the reputation for, can you be a little more clear in the title of this post and tell us how you really feel?
LOL
Cal

The good thing about a rebounding hammer backactioned dr is atleast the shooting can really make sure the rifle do not "double" by leaving one of the hammers down on one barrel while the other barrel is active..

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Damn, I see this old thread I started has arisen from the dead.

I had lost confidence in the Merkel after doubling 4 times in a row. I have a VC 500 NE that I recon I shot at least 300 times without a single incidence of doubling.

Larry I'm just curious, were you pulling the back trigger first?

The reason I ask is that is the only way my Merkel has ever doubled, and then only when being shot by someone else. I've had the rifle for over 10 yrs, shot a couple hundred full house loads in the rifle and have never doubled it even when pulling the back trigger first.

Several years ago when I posted that several people had doubled the rifle pulling the back trigger first and because it never doubled on me with back trigger first I woundered why.

The answer I find is that the rifle was not simply defective but designed to fire the front trigger first by the maker. THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION

I couldn't accept it being defective because it never doubled on me that way, but couldn't figure what they were doing to make it double.

After seeing the response with pictures to your old thread it dawned on me that the reason why was because it was simply designed to pull the front trigger first, and had the inertia block to avoid the back trigger's barrel to fire as well. IOM the German’s reason was since they saw no reason the pull the back trigger first the inertia block was installed so both the front and back triggers could be cut to have a lighter trigger pull. On mine the triggers are about equal in the pull pressure to set them off. Now I find the Merkel purposely designed the rifle to be front trigger first always.

Also in my opinion this was a mistake made because the majority of shooters of double rifles load a solid in the left barrel and a soft in the right barrel. This is the way I load my double if hunting buffalo. The first shot (front trigger) is a soft, followed by a solid (back trigger)and all solids there after.

That was what the Germans went by to design the big bore double rifles. The simply assumed that all shooters would always pull the front trigger first so insured it wouldn't set the other barrel off from the recoil, they installed the inertia block. That has been confirmed for me by Merkel, so now I know why the doubles occurred with other shooters, but I can't figure why it doesn't double on "ME” when I pull the back trigger first! Puzzling!

The Germans should have installed the block on both triggers, that way both triggers could be cut to lighter pull weight no matter which trigger was pulled or simply add proper interceptors on both barrels. But the inertia blocks would have served the same purpose, and cheaper to include in the action!

I may look into installing another block on the front trigger as well, but I normally pull the front trigger first on all double rifles.

The case of needing to pull different triggers on a shotgun to choose a choke holds no water on a double rifle, they are both choked the same. A large percentage of the features needed for a proper shotgun do not apply to double rifles at all. IMO that is the reason for most of the mistakes people who are new to double rifles. Because they both have two barrels doesn't mean they have anything else in common.


..........................................................................................

IF a rifle doubles on either barrel and you didn't accidentally pull the other trigger that is a MECHANICAL problem. If the gun won't regulate because you shot the left barrel first and then the right barrel that is a REGULATION problem.

There really are so many old housewives tales about doubles. The difference between POI between the left barrel or right barrel depending on which trigger was pulled first should be so slight as to be immeasurable.

Don't preoccupy your self with inconsequential increments. If you've got a rifle that only allows you to shoot one barrel or the other first or it won't function GET RID OF IT or get it fixed, but in any case it's a piece of junk.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
IF a rifle doubles on either barrel and you didn't accidentally pull the other trigger that is a MECHANICAL problem. If the gun won't regulate because you shot the left barrel first and then the right barrel that is a REGULATION problem.

There really are so many old housewives tales about doubles. The difference between POI between the left barrel or right barrel depending on which trigger was pulled first should be so slight as to be immeasurable.

Don't preoccupy your self with inconsequential increments. If you've got a rifle that only allows you to shoot one barrel or the other first or it won't function GET RID OF IT or get it fixed, but in any case it's a piece of junk.

Absolutely not true. All double rifle makers regulate their guns with right barrels shot first, followed by 5-10 seconds for the second shot from the left barrel. If you don't believe this, then you don't understand how doubles are regulated.

That's not to say that you may be able to shoot the left barrel first and all is ok. That's just not how they are designed. And it's been that way since the beginning of double rifles. Your statement is so off-base. I seldom get in an up-roar about issues here, but this is one issue where you are totally wrong. No double rifle maker in history has done it any other way. And I challenge you to find an exception, unless it be for adjustable barrel guns.

All double rifles, and I say all, were designed to shoot right barrel first (unless they are a truly left hand model). Any argument otherwise is just

I'll add this to my irritated post earlier, if you're so chicken shit that you think you have to pull the rear trigger first, unlike how all double rifles are designed, then you shouldn't shoot double rifles.

And don't give me that lame argument that I may need to use a solid instead of a expanding; if you have that much time to think about it on dangerous game, then I hope you're lucky.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I'll add this to my irritated post earlier, if you're so chicken shit that you think you have to pull the rear trigger first, unlike how all double rifles are designed, then you shouldn't shoot double rifles.

And don't give me that lame argument that I may need to use a solid instead of a expanding; if you have that much time to think about it on dangerous game, then I hope you're lucky.

Dang Mike, never met you but we're definitely on the same page. Next time, don't candy coat how you really feel . Front trigger first. End of story!

I would sell it and get one of the new Searcy Field Grades.

465H&H