Guys, now that the 450/400 is being so widely chambered, what do you see as the future for the .500/.416? I think it is a superb cartridge, better than the 450/400, but to the best of my knowledge it is only being chambered by Blaser and Krieghoff. Does it have a future cause I really want one?

Dave

I don't see that it matters! I have one. I have plenty of brass. The 416 bullet will always be available, as long as the 416 Rigby is around. I don't buy factory ammo for it. I love the round!
Peter.

Dave,

Just get the 500/416 brass is about 2.55 each and 416 bullets are easy to find.

The little I have shot a 500/416 I did not see a difference in recoil from my 470, and I opt from the larger bullet.

The 450/400 is a sweet shooting cart. light in recoil (in a 10lb double) and very resonable factory ammo (about $80). That will be my next double.

Ed

Dave
To the best of my knowledge Searcy still chambers for the .500/.416. I personally agree with 505ED, all the recoil of a .470 and less bullet. I dont see it going away completely, but I dont think it will gain in popularity either.

Heym will also build one. It just doesn't have the history of the others...but a great round. If your gun regulates below 2300 with the 420 gr bullets. the recoil goes down quite a bit and it still hits with a wallop....good round...but no historic background.

Gary
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NRA Lifer
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...oops, sorry....410 gr bullets.

Gary
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NRA Lifer
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The increased velocity it shows compared to either 450/400 is NOT needed in a D/R. The 450/400 has fantastic sectional density

and a fantastic reputation for penetration at 2150 FPS or so. The 500/416 fires at around 416 Rigby speed. The idea is to be able

to to take farther shots at your game with the higher velocity providing the correct amount of energy at the point of impact. But

who wants to take a farther shot with a double? I hope to take truly CLOSE shots with mine, and I think most D/R shooters do too.

In the 500/416 you have distinctly MORE recoil than the 450/400, and IMO it gives NOTHING to the hunter that he needs as a "reward"

for experiencing that additional recoil. It's more logical in a single shot, falling block actioned rifle. You take your "longer" shot, and

if the beast starts to charge, you may have an extra 1 - 2 seconds for your reload and the firing of your second shot, and who knows,

maybe even a third shot at the critter!

Ask Ganyana
-he's got one .500/.416 Krieghoff!

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

The 500/416 fires at around 416 Rigby speed. The idea is to be able to to take farther shots at your game with the higher velocity providing the correct amount of energy at the point of impact.

!

Jack, with all due respect, your comment does not make any sense! The .500/.416 essentially duplicates the ballistics of the legendary .416 Rigby. Are you saying that the .416 is no good up close?

For me, the two are as different as a 404 with classic loads and a 416Rig.
If your after a lighter and less powerful 40cal double you will get the 450/400.
But if you like a 40cal double with more velocity and flatter trajectory then the 500/416 would be the way one would go.
No?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
For me, the two are as different as a 404 with classic loads and a 416Rig.
If your after a lighter and less powerful 40cal double you will get the 450/400.
But if you like a 40cal double with more velocity and flatter trajectory then the 500/416 would be the way one would go.
No?

Yes! Exactly! And might I say with more "punch".

Thanks Oz.

I have both a 450/400 and a 500/416 and yes the recoil is more with the 500/416 at 2300+ and the 450/400 at 2100....but I assure you the 500/416 will have more punch up close....would the game know the diff.......not with the shot put in exactly the same place. Miss the "sweet spot" by a touch...I'd give the 500/416 the edge. If you HAVE to take that 100 yard shot...the 500/416 would be a better choice.
Taylor even mentions that he wished Rigby had made a double version of his 416...which he didn't....but there is one available now...the 500/416.
It IS a very good round...just doesn't have the "history" of all the other NE rounds.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
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quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
I have both a 450/400 and a 500/416 and yes the recoil is more with the 500/416 at 2300+ and the 450/400 at 2100....but I assure you the 500/416 will have more punch up close....would the game know the diff.......not with the shot put in exactly the same place. Miss the "sweet spot" by a touch...I'd give the 500/416 the edge. If you HAVE to take that 100 yard shot...the 500/416 would be a better choice.
Taylor even mentions that he wished Rigby had made a double version of his 416...which he didn't....but there is one available now...the 500/416.
It IS a very good round...just doesn't have the "history" of all the other NE rounds.

Gary
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Just my opine!

As stated above the 500/416 does have more recoil than the venerable 400 Jeffery (aka 450/400 3 inch). It along with the rest of the "Sweet 400s" with it's long 400 grain bullet has a great reputation for penetrating well.

Brass and bullets should not be a problem.

I personally would not choose the 500/416 over a 400 Jeffery. I don't think the extra recoil is worth it for me.

i woudl prefer the 500/416 Bubba -- which is also CALLED the 500/400!!

that's my idea to load the 500/416 with 400gr bullets at 2150.

I once saw a scope-sighted K-Hoff 500-416 for sale and thought that would be one heck of a rig for Africa.

Use the irons for the close stuff / follow-ups and the optic for those 200 yard record-book Kudu, Sable, etc....

JW out

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i woudl prefer the 500/416 Bubba -- which is also CALLED the 500/400!!

that's my idea to load the 500/416 with 400gr bullets at 2150.

Jeff, that's hard to do with a double if the rifle is regulated with a 410 grain bullet at 2330 fps. There are guys here with way more experience than I who could provide a better answer but I doubt that it would shoot to the same point of impact with the lighter load.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
I once saw a scope-sighted K-Hoff 500-416 for sale and thought that would be one heck of a rig for Africa.

Use the irons for the close stuff / follow-ups and the optic for those 200 yard record-book Kudu, Sable, etc....

JW out

Jeff, how about just use your .416 Rigby (or 9.3 .375, etc.) for the long stuff and use the .500/.416 for the close stuff and the follow up? A nice double is a great COMPLIMENT to a good bolt gun. Besides, putting a scope on a beautiful double is kinda like painting your Harley pink...the very definition of hideous!

Careful, Dave...one of the hottest woman I ever met painted her Harley pink.....and when she wore those white leather chaps at Bike Week.......fond memories!

Gary
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Use a 500/416 and ordered one because of the penetration on ele (much greater than a .470, .500 or .450/400 for that matter) and much greater knock down effect on lion than any of the above rounds, and since those two species are mainly what I hunt...

For a client?? It is a great round. Considerably more recoil in Krieghoff than my Uncles 10lb Woodward 400/450 - about on a par with a .458 win from a bolt action - but considerably less violent recoil than the .458 Lott that it replaced. Just could never shoot that Lott well or fast enough on a follow up shot for my licking.

Tradition? Bugger that. If it works better I want it

Guys, I have to confess, I am baffled buy all this talk about recoil. Given guns of similar weight, wouldn't the .500/.416 have about the same recoil as the .416 Rigby? At 2330 fps in a ten pound rifle, the .416 Rigby is a pussycat to shoot.

quote:

Careful, Dave...one of the hottest woman I ever met painted her Harley pink.....and when she wore those white leather chaps at Bike Week.......fond memories!

Yeah boy! - I love those "Fondle Mammaries" - oops, I meant fond memories!

Jeff.....a man after my own heart....and I think it's fond mammaries.

Gary
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Could you reload the 450 grain Woodleighs in the 500/416 and if so what kind of velocity could one expect?, regulation issues withstanding

The .500/.416 is a study in why the gap between .450/.400 NE and .450 NE existed for 93 years. The bottom line is that there just wasn't ever much demand to fill a gap that is a very narrow niche, especially considering the trade-offs necessary to fill it in a double rifle.

quote:

Jeff, that's hard to do with a double if the rifle is regulated with a 410 grain bullet at 2330 fps

They're not regulated at 2,330 fps. They're regulated with standard factory ammunition loaded by Romey. This ammunition gives standard .500/.416 ballistics - a 410 grain bullet at 2,330 fps - in 650mm (25.6") barrels. The rifles are all 600mm (23.6"). In shooting up several batches of Romey ammunition in a new Kriegnoff, I got 2,250 - 2,260 fps, as expected. Handloads that equalled this velocity were very accurate, but those that exceeded this gave immediate and pronounced vertical dispersion in that particular rifle.

By comparison, standard ballistics for the .450/.400 3.25" NE are a 400 grain bullet (same SD as a 410 grain .416) at 2,150 fps in 26" barrels, which most .400s actually have. Mine were 28", which many have, and which will give higher than standard velocity. Hmmm...50 to 100 fps (you can throw the thing faster than that with your hand) advantage with factory ammo in real double rifles with their most commonly encountered barrel lengths for their respective calibers - at the expense of the highest chamber pressure of all the flanged nitro expresses despite a larger case and a larger powder charge that contributes to recoil that most perceive to be as bad as that of the .450/.470 class.

It isn't a bad cartridge. However, most ask why they should put up with the recoil of the .450/.470 class in a double rifle without the bullet weight and frontal area of a .450 or .470. They're not wrong. The difference in trajectory in a double rifle is meaningless as well. When Krieghoff introduced it, I felt that they should have done what Heym eventually did with the .400 instead. If Krieghoff ever stops supporting it, I'm not sure that it will survive. In a .500/.416, I'd go with the Heym, as it's offered with 26" barrels, which the .500/.416 needs to get the claimed advantage.

400 Nitro Express:

I found the following in Safari Action Shooting magazine:

"From a double rifle perspective the .500/416 NE 3¼” cartridge is perfect.

Performance

The .500/416 NE 3¼” delivers and regulates at around 2,350 fps with 400-410 grain dangerous game bullets from 24″ barrels. That exceeds traditional double rifle velocity of 2,150 fps by about 9% and brings the cartridge into the bolt action performance realm. The .416 Rigby had built its great reputation around this kind of performance. The .500/416 NE 3¼” duplicates the original .416 Rigby specs. Having a double that delivers in excess of 2,300 fps is remarkable. Having a double that duplicates bolt action performance levels is awesome.

Although maximum permissible pressure is prescribed as 48,686 (340 MPa), .500/416 NE 3¼” factory ammunition delivers its performance, according to Krieghoff literature, around 39,885 psi (280 MPa) CIP transducer measured. Although modern propellants are not as heat sensitive as cordite, it remains reassuring to take low pressure cartridges up against dangerous game in hot, humid and low lying areas.

With the 410-grain Woodleigh RN the cartridge delivers a Green-Band Range of seventy odd yards - depending on atmospheric conditions. That is exactly what the doctor ordered for double rifle application."

Dave

Dave:

quote:

400 Nitro Express:

I found the following in Safari Action Shooting magazine:

I read that article a long time ago. Funny enough to actually be good for a laugh.

quote:

The .500/416 NE 3¼” delivers and regulates at around 2,350 fps with 400-410 grain dangerous game bullets from 24″ barrels.

Excepting the occasional DR that just isn't sensitive to substantial variances from standard velocity, this just isn't true. It certainly wasn't true of the .500/.416 that I loaded for.

quote:

The .500/416 NE 3¼” duplicates the original .416 Rigby specs.

Well, yes, it does. Adjusted for barrel length, original standard ballistics for both cartridges are exactly the same - 2,370 fps in 28" barrels, and 2,250 fps in 24". At least he got that part right. However, what comes next is a howler if you understand a little ballistics...

quote:

Although maximum permissible pressure is prescribed as 48,686 (340 MPa), .500/416 NE 3¼” factory ammunition delivers its performance, according to Krieghoff literature, around 39,885 psi (280 MPa) CIP transducer measured.

This stuff is really basic, but the author got none of the above correct.

The CIP MAP (maximum legal average pressure) for the .500/.416 is 3150 BAR/45,687 PSI (piezo transducer). This is the highest of he flanged nitros. Krieghoff's factory load operates at 39,885 CUP (this is CIP's old copper crusher method that uses a drilled case. It isn't PSI, although some Europeans refer to it as that, nor is it transducer) and 44,962 PSI, piezo transducer method. This load produces a velocity of 2,330 fps for a 410 grain bullet in a 650mm (25.6") barrel. Notice that this factory load is loaded right up against the legal max - 98.4% of CIP MAP - in order to get that performance out of the longer barrel. Further, this ammo is loaded with blended non-canister propellants in order to keep the pressure down. Think you can get the same performance with handloads using single canister propellants within the pressure spec?

This was an unresearched fluff article. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

Click on "Ballistic Information".

http://www.krieghoff.com/index...ew&id=607&Itemid=172

400 - have chronoed some W-R 500/416 at 2750fps! After a couple of buldged chambers and other ssues Krieghoff et al have dropped using his ammo.

Norma are introducing the round with conventional weight bullets (410grn at 2330fps from 25" barrels) early this year and are considering adding it in heavy bullets (450grn) in their African PH line if they can find a load that regulates nicely at reasonable velocities and pressures in rifles originally regulated to use standard ammo.

quote:

400 - have chronoed some W-R 500/416 at 2750fps! After a couple of buldged chambers and other ssues Krieghoff et al have dropped using his ammo.

Ganyana:

I'm not surprised in the slightest. Took 'em long enough to get a clue. Seems there's always a few that don't get the word. That stuff has been notorious for that kind of thing for years.

That company also loads Westley Richards proprietary line of rifle ammo. Years ago, just out of curiosity, I ordered 20 rounds of it in .400/.360 Purdey NE, the first factory ammo in that caliber since 1950. Standard for this caliber is 40 grains Cordite under a 300 grain jacketed bullet for 1,950 fps from 28" barrels. After firing a few rounds of my old handload that duplicates this over the chrono, I tried two rounds of the "factory" ammo. I made the bad mistake of assuming the reading for the right was anomalous, and went ahead and fired the left. Both rounds went a touch over 2,300 fps, and the barrels crossed 6 or 8 inches at 50 yards. Then I couldn't get the gun open. Gunmaker says the rifle is fine, but I'm still pissed about the extra proof rounds through it.

A friend tried it out of a .470. The 500 grain did 2,350 from 24" barrels. I know of a minty .500 NE Webley blown to hell with it.

I did NOT want to fire it in the .500/.416, but that's the only factory ammo there is, and it was all we had. Velocities were fairly erratic, but it averaged right where we expected it to in the short barrels. About 20% of the cases split at the shoulder though.

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
Dave,
The little I have shot a 500/416 I did not see a difference in recoil from my 470, and I opt from the larger bullet.
Ed

+1 Ed

I had a Heym in the 500/416 around seven years ago and the recoil matched my 470. Even though I think it's a great cartridge I would opt for the lighter recoiling 450/400 or go up to the 500 before I would own another 500/416. So, to answer your question, I think the future of the caliber is not good, nastalga still plays a key roll in DR sales.

400 Nitro Express:

I defer to you on this but I will tell you that I have corresponded with two other AR members, both of whom shoot .500/.416 Krieghoffs, whose rifles regulated with a 410 Woodleigh at 2330-2340 fps with H1000. 108 grains of H1000 is the load that is provided by Krieghoff. I think the Krieghoff has a 23.5 inch barrel. What follows is the information on the Krieghoff web site:

"Ballistics for the .500/.416 NE (3 1/4")
(Test barrel 25,5" / 65cm)
Pmax:

Bullet:
Velocity:
Energy at muzzle:
39,885 psi (2,750 bar), Copper crusher method
44,962 psi (3,100 bar), Piezzo method
Bullet: Woodleigh softpoint and solid 410 grs (26.6g)
Velocity: 2,330 ft/sec (710m/s)
Energy at muzzle: 4,940 Ft lb (6,700 J)
These characteristics indicate an ideal combination of high energy and flat trajectory. The .500/.416 NE provides maximum effectiveness with moderate pressure. As shown above, velocity and energy are similar to the belted .416 calibers like .416 Rigby, but the .500/.416 NE offers the supreme advantage of a rimmed case suitable for double rifles."

Shortening the barrel to 24 inches should shave off some velocity but not much.

I have to tell you that I am somewhat baffled by all this talk about recoil. Of course, it will have more recoil than a 450/400 but heck, it's a lot more gun. In guns of similar weight, it shouldn't recoil much more than a .416 Rigby and now one seems to to complain much about the recoil of a Rigby in a 9.5-10 pound gun. In fact, the guys on the big bore thread are waiting with great anticipation for the new .416 Ruger and that is going to be in a 7.75 pound Ruger Hawkeye!

Dave

I believe the effects of recoil are precieved very differently by various people. Personally I have several larger bore rifles that Kick the hell out of me. I also have some that may not be large bore but due to weight and stock design, they still kick like a mule. I still use them while hunting and believe they definitely have their place, however with doubles I believe most users want a rifle that is fun to shoot, and still very effective in the field. IMO this is where the traditional NE rounds come into play. The 9.3’s, 400’s and 470’s I have fired seem to have a good balance between the two, and seem to be quite popular.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Besides, putting a scope on a beautiful double is kinda like painting your Harley pink...the very definition of hideous!

A Harley of any color is the very definition of HIDEOUS! Lipstick on a pig! (in this case a HOG!)

The 500/416K is a good cartridge,but has one bad problem! It is new, and that doesn't go well with double rifle people. The 500/416K is in the same boat as the 376 Steyr. Like the 376 Steyr, it is only available in rifles that are not very popular, with the exception of the HEYM. I beleive it wll be around for some time, just like the 350 Rem Mag, and the 225 Win, 8mm Rem Mag, they are around,but nobody seems to care! Personally I don't think the 500/416 will do anything enough better than the 450/400NE 3" to justify the extra recoil, and chamber pressure, and it obscurity among double rifle makers!

None of that, however, henders anyone from haveing a 500/416 if that is what he wants! IMO, if I'm going to have to put up with 470NE recoil, then I want the benefit the 470NE offers, both on the target, and on re-sale ease! I just wish Merkel would come out with a 375 Flanged, and a 450/400NE 3" and dump the 375 H&H , and the 416 Rigby. I'd be in the market for a couple of new doubles in a heartbeat!

Well, seeing as noone else has challenged the assertion that the 500/416 has more recoil than the 470, here are some numbers:
500/416 400 x 2300 = 920,000
450 NE 480 x 2150 = 1,032,000
470 NE 500 x 2150 = 1,075,000
MV is, of course, the momentum which must be conserved by an equal and opposite reaction. These numbers, albeit approximate, give the raw facts. Presumably the assertion is that the PERCEIVED" recoil is greater. This could be due to stock design, or to the perception that a lighter bullet propelled faster, gives a sharp punch as opposed to the "push" of the slower heavier bullet. I do not own a 470, but I do own a K gun in 500/416 and an M.K. Owen in 450 NE. The Owen is heavier than the Kreighoff so I suspect that is the reason why I find the recoil of the two guns almost indistinguishable.
So, if I am right then we should be clear that we talking about perception of recoil.
Peter.

"The .416 Rigby... it's a perfect weapon for all-around use against heavy and dangerous game."

"But I have never been able to understand why John Rigby hasn't brought out a double-barreled edition of his .416, which he could have called the .416 N=2 and which could have had the same ballistics as the Mauser... For all-around work amongst heavy and dangerous game in any part of the world such a rifle would be just about ideal."

John Taylor
AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES

400 Nitro...will all due respect, I HAVE a K-gun in 500/416 that regulates at 2330 fps with Woodie softs and solids....and that number is obtained shooting thru a high-end Oehler Chronograph that has been compared to 2 other chrono's for accuracy. That load is 108 gr of H1000, a load given by Krieghoff. I tried to find another load with 4831 (H and IMR) that performed as well...couldn't do it. It DOES have the recoil approaching the 450-470 class cartridges, but it's not unbearable...nor is a 450 nor 470, both of which I own or have owned.
As far as Taylor goes,he says the round is BETTER for the cats as the velocity is higher..therefore more "shock". I DO NOT think that it is BETTER for elephant or buff than a 450-470 class double, but I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to use it for either.
I agree with the 450/400 "greatness" as I have a Demas double in that round and it DOESN'T kick as much as the 500/416....but it regulates at 2100 fps with a 400 rain pill.
The 500/416 DOES, for all intents and purposes, match the 416 Rigby if one doesn't hot rod the Rigby.
I appreciate opinions and I'm sure you have experience in excess of my own...but I fail to see the need to pi$$ on the folks that inquire about, or like, the 500/416.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
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quote:

but I fail to see the need to pi$$ on the folks that inquire about, or like, the 500/416.

It comes with the territory!

All the rifles weighing about the same shooting cartridges with nearly the same muzzle energy will have about the same recoil. If you think your Whizbang 400 recoils less than a 22 LR, more power to you!

The only reason the 450/400 is popular at all is that it's recoil is relatively low, just a bit greater than a 375 H&H. Compared to typical 400 rounds like the 416 Rem, the 416 Rigby, etc. it is an anemic round.

If one can't get nominal published velocities in a 500/416 what makes you think they will be obtained in factory 450/400 rounds? One could always upload or download either to whatever you want. It doesn't cost that much to get a DR re-regulated.

The "416's" in any form will have more knock down effect, more penetration, and more recoil than the 450/400.

As easy shooting as a 450/400 might be, all the nostalgia in the world won't make it an elephant gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
As easy shooting as a 450/400 might be, all the nostalgia in the world won't make it an elephant gun.

. . . and a 9.3x74R is?

quote:

As easy shooting as a 450/400 might be, all the nostalgia in the world won't make it an elephant gun.