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+1 that was a GREAT one, Mike... like two below the waterline. Bill, you might just SHUT UP at this point opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Hi Dave, To get back to your original question, I think that one would have to suggest that the 500/416 will languish as a "niche" cartridge and struggle to gain in popularity. I agree with your reading of Taylor in that this round should be the "perfect" lion rifle and also be fine for buffalo and elephant. As perhaps a statement of the obvious, I think the 416 Rigby is a fantastic round and, although I have never shot one, would think that the 500/416 would also be an excellent chambering. However, there are many cartridges that have generally been regarded as well conceived that never caught on. I somewhat surprised to see in viewing trophy pictures on various double rifle websites that essentially all the doubles shown are 470s, with very few, if any, 500s or any other caliber. I would also have to suggest that the 450/400 poses a serious challenge to the 500/416 on the lower energy scale and seems to have become very popular. I recall a conversation with a double rifle dealer several years ago about the 416 Rigby, which is available in many double brands. He commented that in many years he had sold only one 416 Rigby in a double. I understand the issue regarding rimless versus rimmed cartridges, but also suggest that is may also indicate there may not be a lot of interest in this caliber in a double. Best of all he loved the Fall.... E. Hemingway | |||
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One day last year my wife drug me to Hobby Lobby to shop. While walking around I saw on a shelf several shadow box treatments about 24" tall by 12" wide that had different gun/hunting themes. One was western with a Colt 45 and Winchester rifle, 44-40 bullet box et al. The third one was African themed with a double rifle, Zulu spear and lo and behold, a little miniature box of 500-416 Nitro Express cartridges! I still wonder how the hell such a relatively obscure cartridge ended up being the model in some third world village where these types of things get made? BTW, it makes a very nice single shot 416 as well, particularly since it is the only readily available (if not only) rimmed 416. Not that I have anything against rimless rounds in falling blocks but I like to stay traditional when I can. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Any cartridge can be overloaded, including the .500/.416 and the .450/.400 3.25", so that's meaningless with respect to any comparison. It is just as likely or unlikely that any given double rifle will regulate that way or not.
I settled on 107.5 grains, which gave 2,250-2,260 in that particular rifle, the same as factory ammo, and about right for barrels that are 2 inches shorter than standard. That load information from Krieghoff is a guide, not a standard. It's pretty basic that you can't go by a specific charge of specific powder, because there are almost always differences in density between lots. Read Roscoe's "Reloading for Doubles" string on this forum.
I've said that above. Unless something has changed, the longest barrels available on the K-guns is 60cm, which is 23.6". Velocity and pressure standardization testing for the .500/.416 was done in a 65cm (25.6") barrel.
I posted that above here:
I've done a great deal of chronographing of double rifles in 40+ caliber range. That has not been my experience with a 2" change.
Again, I don't think that a 100 fps edge with standard pressure ammo in real rifles with barrels of the most common length for each caliber is "a lot more gun". | |||
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400 Nitro Express: I yield! You win! With your vast knowledge of ballistics and firearms you have convinced me that the 450/400 is superior in every respect to the .500/.416. Hell, it's probably the best double rifle cartridge ever with recoil so soft you could shoot and elephant while riding a bicycle! I envy your certainty. You must be a hell of a lot of fun at a cocktail party. Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Gary: You've misread me entirely. It is not my intent, nor have I, "pissed on" folks that inquire about, or like, the .500/.416, nor have I "pissed on" the cartridge. I DID "piss on" an article that Dave posted an excerpt from that was very poorly researched. I think maybe you mistook my having done so as a reflection on something other than the article, which isn't the case. I'm sorry you took it that way. As I said above:
Dave asked the question:
That calls for an opinion, and I don't think the future is rosy in the long term, for the reasons I gave. As for the ballictics issue, the pressure and velocity data for the cartridge (2,330 fps in a 25.6" barrel at 44,962 PSI) were taken in a CIP pressure barrel. The K-rifles themselves are 23.6". Unless there is a special "magic" to the .500/.416, shortening it's barrels doesn't reduce pressures and increase velocity. The Rigby's standard of 2,370 fps was taken in a 28" barrel, the .500/.416's of 2,330 fps in a 25.6" barrel, thus both do about the same with standard pressure loads in barrels of equal length - 2,250-2,260 fps in 24". The .500/.416 matches the standard ballistics of the .416 Rigby, and does it in a double rifle. That's good, and I can't see what's controversial about it. Here's what I've tried to get across: the above is good, but doesn't change the fact that it fills a very narrow niche that didn't create enough demand to fill for 93 years, that the pressure is the highest of the over .40 flanged nitros, or that the recoil is perceived as being equal to that of the .450/.470 group (which you say you agree with). That doesn't make it a bad cartridge. It does make it a harder sell in a market that, by definition, is low volume, and that's why I'm not sanguine about it's long term future. | |||
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I figured that would stir up the troops.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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No way! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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400 NE....perhaps I did and for that, please accept my apology. You HAVE made some good points about the cartridge as have others. I do think it is a better round for cats as its velocity is simply greater than most other doubles...essentially matching the original Ribgy load. Its history is brief unlike the other DR rounds and therefore hasn't proven itself like all the others. I maintain that is is a very nice caliber for a double and very usefull on any dangerous game....with a scope mounted (pink Harley analogy be damed  ) it would make a great lion, leopard and buff gun for a single rifle safari.Again, no offense meant...just sticking up for the round and its positives. Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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Here we go .... all the fighting. Please tell me your experience on elephant.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I'm with Will on this. BTW, 100fps is a significant step up with a ~400gr bullet. More significant when that step up in velocity is also accompanied by a 10gr step up in bullet weight. IMO, elephant rifles start at .458" and go up. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Peter, Your velocities for the 450NE and the 470 are optomistic. The 470 in particular. Nominal velocity is 2125fps OUT OF 31" BARRELS. Vintage rifles run 2025-2050 frequently. Your looking at five to more frequently 7" less barrel. The 450NE Nominal ballistics run from 2150 for the 3 1/4" to 2175fps for the No2, OUT OF 28" BARRELS. More 450's come close to or meet naminal numbers because more have 26" or 28" barrels. Drop the velocity numbers and you'll find that 500/416 ~ 450-470 recoil. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I think that Will is probably just looking forward to puting on that pink cowboy shirt and heading for Dallas this week. He gets a bit verklempt!   Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I am NOT saying the 500/416 and the 416 Rigby are NO good up close. I am saying that those two cause more recoil than 450/400's, and since the DOUBLE is intended to be a close up rifle the extra recoil from the extra speed/powder is NOT worth it. I'd take the extra recoil for a 500 grn bullet at 2150 FPS in a DOUBLE if I felt I needed the 5000 FP of Energy IN A DOUBLE, but I don't want the extra recoil in a DOUBLE from a round that is 400 grns flying out at 2400 FPS or so. That velocity is used in bolt action, or falling block actioned rifles to give flatter trajectory than 2150 FPS yields so the shooter can take farther shots without calculating drop as critically as he would with a round at 2150 FPS. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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JPK, thanks for the info. The number I gave for the 450 NE (3 1/4) is the same as the number I get out of mine, so I have some confidence in that number. I will go back and check. I don't know what the barrel length is. The number I used for the 470 was, I thought, the published number, and seems to have been used above, so it seems to be the accepted number! But I appreciate the clarification. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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From my limited experience wih stopping animals I'll say this: I'll go with the biggest thing I can handle! When Jumbo, or Mr. Nyati is about to stomp you to death, the bigger the better in terms of ft. pound energy. I have not seen a marked difference in the ability to get off a second shot weather it be a .470 / .600! remember that an 10-11 pound rifle will most likely rise (in terms of muzzle rise) about the same as the heavier caliber, heavier rifle @ 14-15 pounds. I have experienced this at both the range and in he field. I've even reviewed my tapes of close up fast shots and really can't see the difference in the two.... ...That said, I am also taking into consideration that the shooter is comfortable with whatever rifle he is shooting - A lot of folks are just plain scared of the ultra-big bores and thus will claim faster shooting with say, a 450-400 - this makes perfectly good sense. ...I'll admit that the .600 hits me a lot harder than the .470, but...I just didn't experience a huge difference with regards to getting off a second shot. When the "Doo-doo" hits the fan, felt recoil in not noticeable (or at least I don't notice it). JW out | |||
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Jeff....I imagine that 600 will get your attention. I had visions of getting a Demas 577 but put that on hold for a bit. If the 577 doesn't stop 'em...I deserve to get run down! Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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Like I said, the 450NE number is likely to be right close. But the 470 number is way high for real life vintage rifles and higher than the published nominal velocity. See it hear, along with the specifications for 31" barrel: http://www.new-kynoch.apt-site...rtridge%20range.htm# JPK Free 500grains | |||
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KYNOCH also recommend their 404 loads from a 28" barrel are set for 2125fps. I knew this was standard for the old classic loads, but should it not be a problem to achieve more velocity with today's powders? | |||
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OZ....my modern rifle (Heym..24") does 2285 fps with 400 gr Swifts or Woodies using 83 gr of H4350....and there are NO pressure signs even in 95* Florida heat. Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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Gary: In my CZ .404 with a 25 inch barrel, 75 grains of Reloder 15 gave me about 2260 with a 400 grain Woodleigh. I wanted to load it back to original ballistics so I worked up a load with IMR 4831. Eighty-Three grains of 4831 gave me 2153 with the same 400 grain Woodleigh. Both are pretty good loads. I have tried the new 400 grain TSX bullets too but have not had a chance to shoot them across the chrony. Dav Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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I just read this and can't not jump in on the recoil issue. This same thing has been beaten to death before re: 416 Taylor vs 416 Rigby. The simple ballistic fact is that two identical bullets, at the same velocity do not give equal recoil in indentical guns if the cartridge cases are not of equal volume. A larger cartridge requires more powder to provide the same velocity. Recoil is a function of the velocity and weight of all the ejecta. In the case of a cartridge the size of the Rigby or 500/416, the incremental weight of the powder gases is significantly higher than that from a Taylor or 450/400. The gas has an exit velocity much higher than the bullet, making the gas a dispropotionate contributor to recoil. Recoil formulae from any ballistics text will show that the larger case and powder charge has significantly more recoil than a smaller case and charge for a given bullet weight and equivalent velocity. As a quick example, I grabbed a loading manual off the shelf, and a 30/06 with a 150 gr bullet required 59 gr of IMR 4350 for 3000 fps. A 300 Weatherby required around 75 grains of the same powder to hit the same 3000 fps. That's 25% more powder to reach an identical velocity. I ran the numbers through a formula I found in an old Lyman manual (which is essentially the same as all those I have seen) and came out with (assuming an 8 lb rifle) 20.97 ft-lbs of free recoil for the 30-06 and 25.53 pounds of free recoil for the Weatherby. Note that this is at the same bullet velocity, so there would be no recoil velocity effect here and no difference in rifles (assumed identical). The Weatherby recoils about 25% harder in this case simply because the case is larger and more powder is required for the same performance. From a recoil standpoint, loading down a larger cartridge to equal the performance of a smaller one is always a compromise. If you want a lighter one, use one. | |||
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After reading all this, I looked at some recoil figures for the 500-416 Nitro Express, 450-400 Nitro Express, and 9.3x74 Rimmed. The 450-400 Nitro Express and 9.3x74 Rimmed both appear to be very similar in terms of recoil energy. The 500-416 Nitro Express probably does hold a slight edge in longer range shots but, how many people are going to take 200 yard shots with an iron sighted DG Rifle? If you're doing a DG hunt, wouldn't a 470 Nitro Express be a better choice? You also have the issue of ammunition and reloading component availability. Brass and bullets are going to be pretty easy to find for the 450-400 Nitro Express and the 470 Nitro Express (at least in the USA with Hornady supporting them). The other two are going to be a little more difficult to source ammunition and reloading components. Hmmm .... Maybe I need to rethink my caliber choices between the 450-400 Nitro Express and the 470 Nitro Express. Best Regards, Sid All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it. Alexis de Tocqueville The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Alexis de Tocqueville | |||
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After reading all the responses to this thread, it is my opinion that the subject of actual recoil as it applies to the shooter, has a lot more to do with the type, weight, and shape of the firearm it is fired in, than it does to the book formulas posted here! A cartridge can be quite different in the amount of recoil felt by the shooter fired in two very different rifles of the same weight, and barrel length. This is because two different rifles, like a double versus, and bolt rifle, both with iron sights, and both weighing the same, because of design shape will feel different to the shooter. This is because the barrels are at a difference in relation the CG of the total rifle, so react to the firing differently. Each barrel is on the right or left of the CG Horizontally, and above the CG vertically. This is a complex recoil because the left barrel will not only recoil up, and back but to the left as well, and vice-versa for the right barrel. Then to add insult to injury, most double rifles have cast off built into the stock, and for a right-handed shooter the recoil will be felt differently between the two barrels. Compare this to the bolt action, usually lighter that a double rifle of the same chambering, which is usually very straight, and rarely has cast off in the stock. The barrel is in line with the horizontal CG of the rifle, and only slightly above the vertical CG, will act quite differently than the double, as far as the “FELT RECOIL” is concerned. In both cases the formula may show the same numbers, the result in reality will be quite different. This also applies to different rifles of the same two types mentioned above. The 500/416 is closely tied to the Krieghoff double rifles, which tend to be light for that chambering, and straighter in over all configurations to most historically designed double rifles. The Krieghoff being more like a bolt rifle in vertical CG, but still have the right & left of the vertical. This effect is the reason a double rifle chambered for the 470NE, and a Ruger No1, or a Farquharson also chambered for the 470NE, and both weighing the same feel far different in regard to recoil. The rifles simply react differently to the same cartridge’s dynamics! So in summation, the only way to find which you will like best is to shoot both types, and brands of rifles, chambered for your chosen cartridge! Formulas are a great starting point, but are just that a starting point, that means little to the final result! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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True. The K-guns don't have enough drop at comb and heel for me for use with irons, so perceived recoil is worse than it should be. | |||
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If only it were that easy. I still haven't met a local double rifle shooter so, my chances of being able to shoot an African double rifle right now are pretty slim.  Best Regards, Sid All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it. Alexis de Tocqueville The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Alexis de Tocqueville | |||
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quote: ------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by MacD37: So in summation, the only way to find which you will like best is to shoot both types, and brands of rifles, chambered for your chosen cartridge! Formulas are a great starting point, but are just that a starting point, that means little to the final result! ----------------------------------------------- This is absolutely correct, but at the same time reality can't be ignored. Too many times on this board, a newbie is advised to get a ".630 Bangalang because I have one that weighs 6 pounds and I can shoot all day, and my brother has an old 12 pound 30-06 that will break your jaw." Ultimately, anyone who is buying a serious rifle will decide as to type and weight based on the intended use. Hopefully most people are astute enough to get a stock that fits them and isn't prone to recoil punishment. Given this scenario, which is true any time I build or buy a new rifle, then these variables are off the table and it comes down to the inherent recoil in the cartridge. I don't know how many times I have seen the recommendation to buy a Lott and download it to 458 levels. That is simply bad advice if someone is recoil sensitive. A 458 in the same gun (literally) will kick much less than a Lott loaded to 458 levels. A Rigby will kick a lot harder than will a Taylor, both loaded to the same velocity in equal weight bolt action rifles with similarly dimensioned and designed stocks. That is simply the truth, and beginners should not be misled about it. | |||
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Every word is absolutely true Art S.! the cartridge being fired at a given speed from a gun that is of the same weight if both are absolutle a straight tube will effect the shooter exactly the same way, no matter the shooter's weight or stature. However, the difference in the over all shape of the firearm in relation to the horrizonal,and vertical center of the firearm, will modify the "FELT" recoil, either negatively, or positively! Formulas only work flawlesly when everything is equal! Cartridges do not have an inherent recoil, that depends on the weight, and shape of what it is fired from. That is all that I'm saying! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac: I am not sure I agree entirely that "cartridges do not have an inherent recoil." Some of this is pure physics. A recoil calculator is a good starting point. However, it is true that all other things being equal (i.e. gun weight, stock configuration, etc) a cartridge with a greater powder charge will recoil somewhat more than one with a lesser powder charge simply because of the greater volume of ejecta. For example a .458 Lott and a .450 Rigby loaded to the same velocity. The Rigby will provide somewhat increased recoil because of the larger volume of ejecta but the difference is just not that great. It seems to me that you have to pick you poison sometimes. The larger case will have somewhat greater recoil but the smaller case will have greater pressure. I usually opt for slightly greater recoil over what is sometimes much higher pressure. Of course, stock design also plays a large part in "felt recoil." Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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