What do you guys think. If you could only have one double and wanted to hunt elephant at least once, is the 450/400 enough gun?

If you could have only one double, you could do no better than the 450/400. It has done the job well many times in the past on elephant and will continue to do so.

Mike

HA! This is like asking some guy if he thinks his wife is ugly!

Any self-respecting 450/400 owner will defend it until they die, most likely elephant hunting!

Perhaps you should ask ELS and others of this forum who have shot elephants withthier 450/400 and been very impressed with the penetration.

450/400 3 inch is plenty!

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
What do you guys think. If you could only have one double and wanted to hunt elephant at least once, is the 450/400 enough gun?

"Is the 450/400 too anemic for elephant?"

The answer to the question in the title to this string in bold above, is "NO, it's not too anemic!"

The other question that comes to mind is, is it the best choice for hunting elephant? If you are like Will, and care nothing about any hunting other than elephant, then the answer to that is "NO!" I'd opt for a good 500NE double for ele hunting if that was all I wanted to hunt.

In the context you ask these questions, the answer is different! IF, you can have only one double rifle, and you MIGHT want to hunt Ele once,the answer is a definite YES the 450/400NE 3" is a fine choice. I say this because, the rifle is easy to learn to shoot well,it is lighter than the rifles that would be first choice for exclucivly hunting ele,so you can carry it all day, and still shoot it well. For everything else,from jackrabbit, to Cape Buffalo, it is PREFECT!

PS: Will, my wife ain't ugly, but she's blind, or she would never have hooked up with my old scarred up butt, for sure!

Is this cartridge's specs a 400gr bullet at 2050/2150fps? If so I would prefer the Rigby 416 about 300fps faster. My primary concern would be that I shot the elephant, and then the PH kills it for me.

Rich

SBT
Congrat's... What will be the Rate of Twist for this Project..Did Butch have any influence on this consideration...
AK

SBT,

I think you need a Merkel in 470 NE

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Is this cartridge's specs a 400gr bullet at 2050/2150fps? If so I would prefer the Rigby 416 about 300fps faster. My primary concern would be that I shot the elephant, and then the PH kills it for me.

Rich

Idaho, there is nothing wrong with the 416 Rigby, but SBT is asking about a double rifle. The 416 Rigby is a rimless round, and not as well suited to double rifles as the 450/400NE 3", it being a flanged cartridge!

Simply because the makers pander to customer's wants,and chamber their double to this type of cartridge, doesn't make it a good idea to use a rimless cartridge in a double rifle, that will be used for a DGR!

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
SBT,

I think you need a Merkel in 470 NE

Tim

I'd pick a 470 over the 450/400 for sure.

Thank God, Will came along to save us from our 450/400's!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
SBT,

I think you need a Merkel in 470 NE

Tim

I'd pick a 470 over the 450/400 for sure.

In responce to the above declaration, I have a like new 470NE Merkel that has taken two elephant, and two Buffalo, and is absolutely new, in it's fitted case, and the origenal box that I'll trade to anyone who has a clean, and not over weight, double rifle chambered for 450/400NE 3", if they'd rather have a 470NE double rifle!

SBT
Will Your rifle be 1-15 Twist.. Will it be something else..
"It's a fine buffalo cartridge and is usable for elephant,although in the heavier cover elephants are hunted in today it must be considered marginal".. Craig T. Boddington
AK

If I wanted a double rifle to hunt buffalo with and other smaller game then I wouldn't rule a 450/400NE out if I found one I liked. And I'd hunt an occasional elephant with it too. But if I were looking for a rifle and thought I'd be hunting more than a few elephants I would want a 450 to 500NE.

My rifle is in the taboo 458wm but it functions flawlessly and delivers a little better than typical or average 450NE ballistics. Its performance is fine for elephants, but I wouldn't make a regular habit of using less bullet or performance.

Since elephant hunting is what I love, if I had a 450/400NE it would be for sale. Again, this wouldn't be the case if buffalo were my love an an elephant or so an occasional target.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Thank God, Will came along to save us from our 450/400's!

You're welcome!

But we knew from the start this would be controversial. Have fun.

akrange,
Wish I could accept the congratulations, but I'm still in the dreaming stage.

Mac,

I meant to type "...would prefer the 416 Rigby's additional 250+fps MV...", if an elephant hunt were ever in order for me. The fairy tale about "...you can only kill them dead..." is BS when my ass is at stake, I want them D-E-A-D, crumpled in their tracks, take pictures NOW!! dead. See the fleas move out dead!
It's just this genetic thing I have about dying of old, old age, not trampled/clawed to death as a comparatively young man. Load the 450/400 to Rigby specs and sell me two!

Rich

Will, no need for controversy needed!
I defer to your elephant hunting experience with the 450/400, of which I have none!

Idaho Sharpshooter,

The Catch 22 of elephant hunting is that you can kill them DEADER THAN DEAD with a 375H&H or 9.3x62. But its when your shot isn't perfect that you want, maybe need the bigger rifle.

In my book, I'd go for more bullet weight and diameter rather than much more velocity. I'd rather have a 450NE at 2050fps, 2100fps or 2150fps with a 480gr solid than a 416 shooting a 400gr solid at 2200 or 2300fps of whatever variety, say a 500/416 to keep the rimmed cartridge purist happy. Better yet give me a 450NE that will shoot the North Fork flat nose 450gr solids at 2190fps or so.

JPK

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Will, no need for controversy needed!
I defer to your elephant hunting experience with the 450/400, of which I have none!

Don't give me any credit as I have not hunted eles with a 450/400. Guys do swear by them but at 2050 fps it has about 3700 ft-lbs of energy range which is getting down there, and less than the nominal muzzle energy of a 375 H&H. If one could goose it up to 2150 it can only be better.

In the 450/400 article by Ganyana on the African Hunter web site, he swears that the 450/400 is better than the 458 WM. Maybe.

If we were all crack shots all this would be purely academic anyway.

SBT
Sorry..I get all You S's mixed up..It was STGS that ordered the 450/400.. Anyway.. Forget the Twist question ..How about The Principle of Consevation of Angular Momentum..
AK

SBT asks if a guy was to have only one double rifle and wants to hunt elephant at least once is a 450/400 too weak.

The way he posed the question makes me believe that he is striving toward the first elephant hunt, and it may well be the only elephant hunt for him.

If I am mistaken here, please forgive me.

If I guy is going to hunt elephant one time and then have little or no real chance to do so again, my vote would be in favor of the 450/400 with 400 grain solid at 2150 FPS or a hair faster.

Pondoro said it was fine, but if a guy needed something bigger for the sake of building confidence then go to 500/465.

I have shot zero elephant, but Pondoro did shoot one or two and I think he renders a reasonable opinion.

Ganyana must be talking about some pretty anemic 458wm fodder. Give me a good steel jacketed 500gr solid of SD .341 at 2050fps any day over a 400gr steel jacketed solid of SD .338 (.411 bullets) or .344 (.408 bullets) at 2050fps any day.

My rifle will shoot to POA, in regulation, with loads from +/- 2050fps to 2135fps with 500gr Woodleighs with different powders. Things only get better with North Fork 450gr flat points. This seems true for at least one other .458" user, and he's shooting a 450 NE No2.

JPK

Hi,
SBT's post "What do you guys think. If you could only have one double and wanted to hunt elephant at least once, is the 450/400 enough gun?" is a great way to stimulate post.
I think the proper anser is "You should use the bigest caliber you can hit your mark consistantley and rapidley with." I tend to think a 9" paper plate at 50 yards is a good test 4 shots under 30 sec. We all know of people taking elephants with lesser calibers starting with the 7 mauser. I think a lot of elephant are taken with 375H&H or 9.3x62.or 416 Rigbey and the 450/400. I personaley would feel adaqatley guned under ideal conditions. However I would want something like a good 470 or 577 if things went south.

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Is this cartridge's specs a 400gr bullet at 2050/2150fps? If so I would prefer the Rigby 416 about 300fps faster. My primary concern would be that I shot the elephant, and then the PH kills it for me.

My primary concern would be to have a good PH who could kills it for me and be able to tell the tale latter if I screwed up, it happens to the best no matter what gun you use.
Well back to SBTs concerns."Is the 450/400 enough gun?" If you like the cartrige and can learn to shoot it and know your limits then yes.
Bill

My 450/400 is very accurate I shoot it well and hope to be able to use it on an elephant one day soon.

Fred

My 470 is heading to another home where it will be used for back up down in the Zambezi Valley. It is to be replaced by a 450/400 and I hope to use it on a few Jumbo along with a few Buff in my time as its owner.
ozhunter

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
My 470 is heading to another home where it will be used for back up down in the Zambezi Valley. It is to be replaced by a 450/400 and I hope to use it on a few Jumbo along with a few Buff in my time as its owner.
ozhunter

Good for you. A 470 double at some point needs to see a real life in the hands of an active PH, whether a new kid or a middle-aged one.

Ouch!

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Ouch!

NOT TO BELABOR THIS BUT IT SEEMS THAT ANYTIME ONE ASKS FOR OPINIONS, ONE GETS THEM!

To hell with the rest of us, buy anything you want to. In the end, it won't matter.

In life the only important thing is to have someone to love and have someone to love you back. But African hunting is a close second.

I'd agree with that Will! Well said!

The best double rifle is the one you can buy, shoot and hit what you are aiming at! That is the Best double rifle of all!

Is the 450/400 enough gun for an elephant hunt? Of course it is. It can be counted on to turn or knock down a charging elephant with a near miss brain shot, I have seen it done. Although I have never used one on ele I have owned several over the years and did take a couple of elk with one of them. By the time I could afford to hunt elephants, I no longer owned one. It was Taylors favorite elephant caliber and he only recommended a larger bore if you needed the added confidence. I would hunt elephants with one with complete confidence. Unless I was a PH or elephant culler where close charges are all too common, I see no great need for a larger caliber.

465H&H

Until the British banned the caliber (a little uprising in India based on the rumor that the bullets were coated with pig fat, which upset the Muslims with the concurrent rumor that the bullets were coated with cow fat, upsetting the Hundu population), virtually none of the other calibers like the 470 or the 465 existed.

There are probably more double rifles out there today in 450 than any other caliber. And there have probably been more DG taken with it than any other caliber. The British gun trade had a real knack for coming up with just the right formula of size, velocity and energy needed to kill DG. Their business required live customers. While many have attempted to improve on calibers like the 375 H&H, 404 Jeffery, 416 Rigby, and the 450 to 470 class Nitro calibers, there are not many rounds that merely get close ballistically and at times not even duplicating terminal performance on DG.

I have never shot an elephant. And my DR is a 470 Nitro. Just seems to me that if the 450 was the right stuff up until the Brits banned the round after they managed to piss off an entire sub continent, in the days with with no sat phones, Medjet or even antibiotics, perhaps it is indeed the right stuff today.

465H&H,

The 450/400 was Taylors favorite buffalo cartridge. The 450NE 3 1/4" 450NE No2 and/or the 500/465 were his favorite elephant cartridges. He says he shot the most with a 450NE No2. He did say that he could live happily with just a pair of 450/400's though.

Will provide citations if you require.

JPK

Will
All aboard the "Love Boat" to the Zambezi..
AK

you would be far better served and would never regret having a 470 today. the 450/400 has long been obsolete and as far as i know only one maker in the world offers it as a standard chambering.

JPK!

African Rifles and Cartridges, By John Taylor. Chapter XII, A Summing-up, pgs: 299- 300.

I quote:
For (c) "Large bores throwing heavy bullets for heavy game and dangerous animals such as are shot at close quarters usually in thick cover."

"Auctor: Well, that seems clear enough. And now your own personal choice for the different groups." (Bold added for emphasis!)

"I would like to add that I would be just as happy with a .400 as a .465 for class (c) and have only mentioned the larger caliber to recommend it from amongst its numerous contemporaries should something more powerful than the .400 be desired."

Chapter IV Large medium Bores

Page 115

"For some reason that I find difficult to explain I derived greater pleasure from using the .400 than any other caliber; and no weapon behaved more successfully in my hands."

"With one or another of these rifles I killed practically all species of African game and my experience was such that I would not hesitate to follow any dangerous animal into any sort of cover if armed with a double .400."

Page 116
" Those men were staunch upholders of nothing smaller than .450. But to speak like that is merely to expose one's ignorance and lack of experience." " Experience has shown that 4,000 ft.-lbs. can safely be taken against any animal anywhere." " And right here I'm strongly recommending the double .400 for African big game hunting."

My reading of his book leaves no doubt that the .400 was his favorite weapon. Although he used many calibers to test them out he had two real favorites. The 465 Nitro and the 400 Nitros. The above quotes seem to clearly state his preference for the .400s.

465H&H

Tom

I certainly don't disagree with you about the 470. But I don't agree that the 450 is obsolete. There is a big difference in recoil and in a lot of people's minds not such a difference in terminal performance.

Searcy is turning them out on a pretty regular basis. Heym is now offering it as a standard chambering. And Hornady just started producing off the shelf ammo for it.

If one is looking at a used double a 450 can generally be picked up for a little less.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Until the British banned the caliber (a little uprising in India based on the rumor that the bullets were coated with pig fat, which upset the Muslims with the concurrent rumor that the bullets were coated with cow fat, upsetting the Hundu population), virtually none of the other calibers like the 470 or the 465 existed.

There are probably more double rifles out there today in 450 than any other caliber. And there have probably been more DG taken with it than any other caliber. The British gun trade had a real knack for coming up with just the right formula of size, velocity and energy needed to kill DG. Their business required live customers. While many have attempted to improve on calibers like the 375 H&H, 404 Jeffery, 416 Rigby, and the 450 to 470 class Nitro calibers, there are not many rounds that merely get close ballistically and at times not even duplicating terminal performance on DG.

I have never shot an elephant. And my DR is a 470 Nitro. Just seems to me that if the 450 was the right stuff up until the Brits banned the round after they managed to piss off an entire sub continent, in the days with with no sat phones, Medjet or even antibiotics, perhaps it is indeed the right stuff today.

Jim,

The story is that it was the 450 caliber that was banned, not the 450/400. And hence came the 470, the 465, etc.

465H&H,

In general, some reservation should be used when quoting my father, John Taylor, as he pretty much said good things about almost every caliber available in double rifles.

And, as I said above, a crack shot, like Gomez, can get by with a 450/400 as a backup rifle ALMOST all of the time , but as an occasional tourist-hunter, I'm not so sure. But if one never gets charged it really doesn't matter.

There is an article in the current (for the delayed delivery US crowd) about using a 30-06 with 220 gr. bullets on elephants, and very few got away! That sort of stuff is just not an option for me.

Will,

I thought they banned cases and cartridges, but now that I think of it you are correct, it was just the 450 caliber bullet.

From the pictures in your book, I was wondering about the uncanny resemblence between you and Taylor. Are those his knees?