465H&H,

I guess I will have to provide citations. I'm busy right now at the office but I'll do it at home tonight.

I've got more than the two you've got. I'm pretty sure you can produce more so how 'bout just counting them up and letting me know how many. I'll provide a couple of my favorite quotes and count up the rest too - it'll save on typing.

While he favored the 500/465 NE because it was a Holland & Holland near exclusive, and H&H built there rifles generally lighter, he still killed the most elephants with a 450NE No2.

Circumstances will impact which rifle a fellow uses for a day, a season, even longer, but there is a limit and over a lifetime the favorite rifle for a task gets used the most. He used a 450NE No2 the most.

JPK

this conversation has been very informative, but african hunting is nothing like even the early 1950's. It sounds faintly reminiscent of the arguement against shooting Africa's Big Five with a 45-70 with a 4000fpe load when the entire north american buffalo herds were decimated with a 500gr RN bullet in front of 70gr of black powder at a screaming 1300fps.

By way of reference: J.A. Hunter's excellent book "Hunter", page 221. "I am convinced that is is extremely unwise for an man to hunt elephant, buffalo, or rhino with a gun of less than .450 caliber." Page 220, "...I have mainly relied on a .500d/b hammerless ejector fitted with 24-inch barrels, and weighing 10 pounds 5 ounces made by Holland & Holland. My .500 has never let me down. It is quite adequate for all big game, including elephant. I have never seen it fail to stop a charge-if it had failed even once I would not now be writing these notes." .510" diameter five hundred and seventy grain bullet at 2150fps.

That's enough information for me; that, and reading the entire book "Hunter" a couple times a year for the adventure. Robert Ruark said more than once, and titled a book "Use Enough Gun".When I reach Africa next spring I do NOT want to have the PH say "you shoot and then I'll kill it for you."

A closing question, those of you who have been to Africa at least twice, ever sit on the flight back and think "Damn, I brought too much rifle for elephant and buffalo, would have been better off with something smaller."

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

A closing question, those of you who have been to Africa at least twice, ever sit on the flight back and think "Damn, I brought too much rifle for elephant and buffalo, would have been better off with something smaller."

Rich

Never, and since I went "big", I could have gone smaller. Then I could have said I should have taken one of the "heavies." I just take one of the heavies and don't look back and it's never failed yet.

465H&H,

I got home from the office after 9:30 tonight and will pull those quotes tomorrow night.

Idaho Sharpshooter,

If your brain shot is true, then a 375H&H or a 9.3x62 will kill your elephant deader than dead. Its the less than perfect shot, and plenty happen - a hell of a lot more than you will ever read about and a hell of a lot higher % than the near 100% success rate of internet hunters would have you believe - where a big bore rifle will buy you time to make a killing second shot, or alternatively will have a better chance of stopping a charge with a less than perfect shot.

Like I said earlier, I would hunt elephants with a 450/400, or a 375H&H if that is what I had and I was only after an elephant or a few. If you make it a habit, you will eventually need the big bore.

My opinion,

JPK

Like a lot of us Taylor tried many calibers over his career. Most of us that have been around for many years have used many calibers but in the end we tend to settle down to those that have served us with the greatest satisfaction. Taylor did very little elephant hunting after WWII. On one of his last great poaching expeditions right before WWII broke out he went on a massive raid down the Tana river poaching rhino and elephant. His number one rifle was a 450/400. He had a 465H&H along as a back up but ended up giving it to one of his poaching partners to use when he ran out of ammunition for his rifle. This was extremely thick country and he was charged many times by rhino. He continued to use the 450/400. Read his chapter on summing up, where he is specificaly asked his prefered calibers. The 450/400 was it. in his own words.

The original question was is the 450/400 enough for elephant. Taylor thought so and so do I although I admit that my three go to calibers for elephant are the 465 Nitro, 458 Lott and 470 Nitro.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
...although I admit that my three go to calibers for elephant are the 465 Nitro, 458 Lott and 470 Nitro.

465H&H

Not sure what the term is but it seems like you are disproving your own hypothesis.

Or to put it another way: Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

If I where a client or a PH that specialized in Jumbo I would use a 470 or 500.. but im not so I like the idea of a mild but fast handling 404 type double with a QD scope for vercitility.


Will,
One of my conditions of the sale of the rifle was that the new owner puts it to good use.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Will,

I thought they banned cases and cartridges, but now that I think of it you are correct, it was just the 450 caliber bullet.

The bullet diameter was all that was banned, and that was only banned in India, and the Sudan! The reason was the people in those countries were useing the bullets from captured ammo to reload their own weapons most being paper cartridge, breach loading Precussion rifles!

quote:

By Tom

Until the British banned the caliber (a little uprising in India based on the rumor that the bullets were coated with pig fat, which upset the Muslims with the concurrent rumor that the bullets were coated with cow fat, upsetting the Hundu population), virtually none of the other calibers like the 470 or the 465 existed.

The rumor was purposely sent out that the waxed paper on paperpatched bullets, and the waxed paper used to make paper cartridges, was both pig, and beef fat.

This worked because the paper in the paper cartridge had to be torn with thier teeth, before loading in the rifle, and the bullets had to be handled to load them. Religeon prohibited their touching these fats. This is a seperate thing, and had nothing to do with the banning of the 450 caliber! That disision was later!

quote:

By Tom

you would be far better served and would never regret having a 470 today. the 450/400 has long been obsolete and as far as i know only one maker in the world offers it as a standard chambering.

TOMO577

There is no doubt the 450s are a better choice for Ele hunting, but that is not the issue here. The 450s, and the 470NE are not as well suited to the bulk of the hunting he wants to do. The man is simply asking if he buys a very versatile 450/400 3" double rifle would it be suficient to hunt an Elephant once or twice. The answer to that is YES it is!

As far as the 450/400s being long obsolete, it is no more obsolete than any of the old NE rounds, except for the 470NE!

Twenty yrs ago, they were all obsolete, if factory ammo availability was the reason, and most NE cartridges, today, are still obsolete if that is the mark of makeing them obsolete! At least factory ammo, and new rifles are available for the 450/400 3", and it is not for most of the 450s

quote:

By Will
Jim,

The story is that it was the 450 caliber that was banned, not the 450/400. And hence came the 470, the 465, etc.

Will is correct! The cartridges like the 470NE, 500/465NE, the 475 #2 and the like, were designed on the 500NE case so the re-chambering reamers would clean out the old 450 chambers, and the bullet diameters of the new cartridges could be bore thorugh the 450 barrels. Thus salvageing the old 450 double rifles, by reboreing, re-chambering, and re-regulating the old barrel sets, makeing a quick re-do, to get the rifles back into service quickly, without completely re-barreling! Those new "MAKE DO" chamberings will do nothing better than the old 450s they replaced, because of the 1909 rule.

[QUOTE....the 450/400 has long been obsolete....[QUOTE]

This simply isn't true. The .400s haven't been obsolete for 25 years and weren't obsolete any longer than the .470 was.

The .470 and both .400s became technically obsolete when Kynoch closed down in 1973, but that didn't last very long. Kynoch knew the problem they were creating and loaded large runs of all three in the late '60s and early '70s, and ammunition from these lots is still relatively easy to find today. In the late '70s and '80s, Jim Bell offered both new boxer primed cases and loaded ammo. About the time Bell sold to PMC/Eldorado, Federal began offering .470. By that time A-Square was offering cases and loaded ammo for all three, and Romey in Germany, and Kynoch in England soon followed. And now we have Hornady offering .400 Jeffery. I have no idea how long Superior has been around, but they've offered custom ammo for all three for a long time.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

there is nothing the old 450/400 can do that cannot be done better by the 470

try to find some 450/400 ammo in africa if yours gets lost - GOOD LUCK !

the 450/400 always was a less desirable round because it looks queer .... and that you cannot deny.

but if that round turns your crank go for it.

just don't cry when you go to sell it - searcy has one for sale which is certainly not being snapped up ... great cartridge that it is and all that.

465H&H,

I will reread the chapter. I had another really late night at the office so didn't get a chance to post my favorite quotes. I'll do it soon and start a new thread.

I think Ozhunter's got it right, with his veiw of the perfect role for the 450/400.

JPK

JPK,
What does your beauty weigh and how do you find it on those hot walks?
I found 10.5lbs was my maximum for comfort and speed.
Regards
ozhunter

Ozhunter,

My rifle weighs 10 1/2lbs. I think the stopping power/weight/recoil compromise is just right for elephants and I don't have an issue carrying my rifle all day in the heat. I'm a pretty big guy and like the weight for handling and rapid but controlled shooting. This might have something to do with the fact that my rifle weighs and balances the same as my 10ga SxS goose gun, which I have used quite a bit for the last decade and more.

I could carry another pound or two of rifle but wouldn't look forward to it. If I was going to carry the extra weight, I would only do it for a considerable leap in power, which I don't think is neccesary.

Btw, I find carrying a double rifle much easier and more comfortable than carrying a bolt rifle, and I'd trade a pound more weight for calibre to carry the double, all other considerations ignored.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
there is nothing the old 450/400 can do that cannot be done better by the 470

Taylor didn't think so.

quote:

try to find some 450/400 ammo in africa if yours gets lost - GOOD LUCK !

You're not in much better shape with .470.

quote:

the 450/400 always was a less desirable round because it looks queer .... and that you cannot deny.

That's easy to deny because it's factually false. With respect to the Nitro DRs, there were more .400s built than any other over .40 Nitro caliber. The .400 was always the most popular. The popularity of the .470 today is a relatively late post-war phenomenon, largely the result of happenstance.

quote:

just don't cry when you go to sell it - searcy has one for sale which is certainly not being snapped up ... great cartridge that it is and all that.

You need to get out more. The .400 is one of the easiest calibers to sell right now, and resale prices have done quite well in recent years. With the pre-war British rifles (which is what almost all of the .400s are), nice boxlock .470s have roughly doubled in value over the last 15 years. Nice .400s have tripled. When you talk to component dealers like Huntingtons, the .470 is kinda slow, but they're having trouble keeping .400 stuff in stock. The Searcy not moving has nothing to do with caliber.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

takkimoto took the 7th largest ivorys with one. my personal favorite is the plain 450x3.1/4ne all the pop of 470 and you can get hornady solids 500grn for much less than the 470..

Powell-Cotton took what was, at the time, the world's record elephant with a .400 Jeffery.
--------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by lash laroo:
takkimoto took the 7th largest ivorys with one. my personal favorite is the plain 450x3.1/4ne all the pop of 470 and you can get hornady solids 500grn for much less than the 470..

Lash Welcome to AR!

I see your main interest seems to be small bore rifles, judgeing from most of your few posts. There are pleanty of small bore fans here on AR, so I think you will find some friends here!

I read your profile, and since Accurate Reloading is a very international web-site, it is advisable to put down your locality, not address, but at least the country, and the part of that country, like state or provence! The reason for this is, sometimes you need to find something, by asking on the forum, and it is much easier to get you help if we know where to send you, in relation to your location! This works the other way round,as well, as we may need information about hunting in, or near your area, and if we know that area, we know who to ask!

Again WELCOME!

400 Nitro Express,

I agree that nothing that can be done with a 400 can't be done better by a 470 - except for carrying the thing day in and day out even when after plains game, mounting a scope on it for max versatility... Taylor would substitute the 450 for the 470. When I find time to write the post on Taylor's quotes please join in, I think a fellow without a real dog in the fight will come to the conclusion that for all the waffling, Taylor was a 450 guy. I sotrta have a dog in the fight, calibre wise but not cartidge wise.

470 ammo is, in my experience, plentiful in Africa. Dangerous Game ammo by availability would go as follows:
1.) 375H&H
2.) 458wm
3.) 470
4.) 416 Rigby

This would be the list of the top five available since the Lott can shoot the 458wm. Your milage would vary, but 470 ammo was commonly available. Never seen a 450/400 rifle or round in Africa.

JPK

Sone of the PH's that I have hunted with in Africa have told me that
they hate to see a hunter show up with too much gun. They have had lots
of clients not shoot well with .460 Weatherby's or even .458 Lotts. They
say they would much rather have a guy shoot a .375 H&H well, than flinch
with one of the larger calibers, accuracy & shot
placement is paramount.

Hopefully, that analogy extrapolates to double rifle calibers, at least
it did for me. I chose a 450/400 over a 470,500 NE simply because I
shoot it better (more accurate, quicker recovery,..). I've
taken a nice bull elephant, 3 buff & a lioness with this rifle &
have not found it anemic at all.

I believe you should shoot the maximum caliber you can handle well when
chasing DG.

Recoil is an issue. But you can become accustomed to it. Recoil from a 450NE league rifle takes some getting used to but used to it is easily within the scope of how much you should be shooting any rifle before you hunt DG with it. Also takes some up keep since recoil tolerance will drop without keeping it up.

I'm fine with the recoil from my rifle, but I have shot it quite a bit. Some fellows might find it too much. That can be a mere practice issue or they may be beyond their tolerance. 300 or 400 rounds in a couple of months are neccesary to tell the difference.

But I do agree, better to shoot a lighter rifle than too shoot too much rifle from a recoil point of view. Best option, shoot your rifle enough to become accustomed to the recoil. Edited to point out that recovery is near zero with my rifle, at least on game.

JPK

Recovery might be worse than you think; it's just not noticed when hunting.

This argument could go on forever, but it is like Taylor said just because some cartridge can kill game doesn't really address the point.

When hunting elephant a 30-06 can kill elephant, but I don't want to use one!

From NE450#2's report on his Oct. Safari in the African Hunting Forum. . .

quote:

I raised my rifle and from about 48 to 52 yards, gave him a brain shot from the 450/400.

At the shot his back legs seemed to buckle and inch or two then his front legs fell out from under him, not the classic brain shot response.

Ween the fell the brush was in ther way for a followup so I mooved a few feet to my left and fired a body shot.

I reloaded, then moved down a little and fired 2 more insurance body shots. The bull never made any signs of getting up, but I was taking no chanches with my Ivory and my Lion bait.

Later we discovered the bullet had gone through the bottom of the brain into the medula oblongta, and through the spine, causing the front legs to collaspe

Just another example of the poor penetration you get from a 450/400 on elephants.

The only penetration problems that the 450/400 has is getting it through the thick skulls of those that don't own one, that the 450/400 does get the job done, and does it well!

BTW, JPK did you find those quotes you were looking for?

I think we are to a point where the guys that own one are defending their baby, and the guyw who don't are defending their choice to pass on one. If a guy came over and said he'd foot the bill for a cull elephant trip to Africa if I used a 450/400 I would be out the door THAT!!! fast. That said, if an opportunity came up to buy one at a "gimme" price, I most definitely would. My preference would be something in a bit larger caliber and MV/ME level.
regards,

Rich

Rusty, Rusty, Rusty....

Elephant? Bahhh!

Just how do you think it would do on some of our Texas killer game? The viscious armadillo? Huh? The Jhorny Javelina?

Or the most dreaded of all, The Giant Southern Woodchuck (Woodchuckus horribilus) in musth? And what about the askari chucks you have to contend with? Ever seen 'em stampede? Or face a herd charge where the sound of dozens of fat, stubby legs on padded feet moves the ground like a cheap motel vibra-bed? The stuff of nightmares, I tell you!

I'll stick with my 20mm Vulcan, thank you very much! The only medicine that assures the chuck's death bellow every time.

Will,

Its on DVD and the recoil recovery is all but instantaneous, in fact there is virtually no reaction to the recoil. Nothing like the recoil and muzzle rise on your 416 Taylor shown on Buzz's DVD. Btw, thats were my DVD came from, hunting with Buzz.

Rusty,

No but I'll get to it tomorrow. Was up at 3:30 this morning to go duck and goose hunting; heading for a nap now. I'll start a new thread on Taylor's favorite cartridges.

I don't think anyone has said a 450/400 isn't an elephant killer, just that it lacks the impact and stopping power of larger calibre rifles shooting bigger, heavier bullets. The same thing can be said of the 450 class when compared to the 500... A 375H&H solid is a renowned penetrator and its less than the 450/400's and its still an elephant killer. Penetration is all you need when the shot is perfect. Not so when it isn't perfect, or can't be perfect. I beleive that the 450 class is the right balance for elephants, not that the 450/400's can't do the job.

JPK

Like JPK has said, the 450/400 can not be as good as a 470 or 500 type rifle for stopping a Moving Ele. But with the TWO instant shots avaliable its got to be better than a bolt rifle in 404- 416 class in the thick s#@*t..

oz,

The only "need" for a double is in a close quarters charge, just in case the first shot didn't work.

And one has to be smoking the double rifle Kool-Aid to claim there is no muzzle rise (JPK ), which would throw it in the face of physics, but it wouldn't be the first time physical laws were broken on AR!

As Rusty pointed out in my post [sorry for all the typos, but I was on a slow satelite system in the African bush when I posted it], I reciently shot an elephant bull with my 450/400 3 1/4".

This was my 3rd trip to Zim, but the first with the 400. mThe 450 no2 was along as well but since I had not shot any African game with the 400 I used it the entire 10 days I was in Chewore South.

I will go more into my rifles exact performance on the game we shot with it when I can sit down and type in my hunt story, but I will say that I fine the 450/400 plenty powerful enough for ANY African game.

My 450 No2 is my favorite rifle, however I did not feel undergunned at any time with the 400.

I feel the 450/400, especially scoped, is superior to the bigger doubles for most hunters in todays Africa.

However if you tend to specialize in a lot of elephant hunting, and like to shoot them really close, and can handle it well, there is nothing wrong with a double in the 450/470 class, or again, if you can handle the heavier guns, something even bigger.

However, I have heard from several sources that a certain individual who hunts with a 700 Nitro has yet to successfully brain an elephant.


Also, I think Taylors personal favorite was the 450/400.

Will and JPK

In regards to recoil and muzzle rise.

When hunting I do not feel the recoil [the pain of that is], and my recovery time is a lot faster than when just practicing.

All three of my Safaris have been filmed, and I have fired two rapid shots on several occasions.

When reviewing the tape I have been suprised my self as I can not shoot that fast in practice, much less get the quality of hits I seem to get in the field on my second shots.

I feel when "range" shooting that the 500's have too much recoil and recovery time for me, but if I practiced more with one and IF I hunted with one I might feel different.

Also I think, in calibres .400 and up the double rifle is superior in every way to a bolt rifle for all game, not just dangerous game.

This is of course comparing iron sighted doubles to iron sighted bolt rifles and scoped doubles to scoped bolt rifles.
I find the handling qualities and 2 quick shots of the double to be superior [for me anyway] to the magazine capacity of the bolt gun.

In fact I prefer the scoped 9,3 double to any bolt rifle in the same power class, to include the great 375 H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
oz,

The only "need" for a double is in a close quarters charge, just in case the first shot didn't work.

And one has to be smoking the double rifle Kool-Aid to claim there is no muzzle rise (JPK ), which would throw it in the face of physics, but it wouldn't be the first time physical laws were broken on AR!

Will,
I totally disagree with your thought on this (only need). An example is on the last Buff and Ele that I used my 470NE on I was able to get off two lung shots on both animals before they had time to turn and run. A comment from my friend after putting the two shots into the Ele was “Boy you put that second shot in fast!†I feel much better with two shots in the lung area than one , and head shots are not always possible and or perfect.
Regards,
Adam

ozhunter
Exactly my point.

Oz,

The thought of missing on the first shot never occured to me. Sorry.

And if that buff or elephant had turned and came for you, a bolt would have been handy. When in those situations where fire-power is needed, which thankfully only occured once for me, a double would have been a definite handicap.

Please forward all flattened double rifles to P.O. Box 10 ............

Gentlemen,
There is only one way to answer this question,I have my 450/400 packed and ready.My bags are packed and ready.Now all I need is the donated hunt for about 10 bull elephant.I will let you guys work that out and I will be waiting for tickets and a departure time.I also think it would be a good idea to film it so you guys can work that out too.Thank you.

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by WVFred:
Gentlemen,
There is only one way to answer this question,I have my 450/400 packed and ready.My bags are packed and ready.Now all I need is the donated hunt for about 10 bull elephant.I will let you guys work that out and I will be waiting for tickets and a departure time.I also think it would be a good idea to film it so you guys can work that out too.Thank you.

Fred

Fred, I think that is a good idea, and I'll be happy to go along and protect you with my 9.3X74R Merkel double rifle, in case the 450/400NE 3" lets you down! I could even shoot a couple of Cape buffalo for camp meat, so you wont have to waste your 450/400 ammo!

Will,

Here is my quote:

"...nothing like the muzzle rise and recoil from your 416 Taylor..."

Guess what, the muzzle rise and recoil generated by my rifle aren't even in the same league as that generated by your 416 Taylor. Just watching your rifle's recoil and muzzle rise, as it slams up and into your cheek makes ME cringe!

As I said, I've watched on DVD and the muzzle rise and recoil of my rifle, as I use it in the feild, are insignificant, recovery all but instantaneous. I never loose the sight picture to recoil. There are five kills on the DVD and its the same for all five, plus the after action insurance shots as well.

You really ought to rethink your very light rifle theory. I carried my 10 1/2lb rifle every day for 30 days straight, its just not that tough. Geez, I'm shooting more bullet in diameter and weight and knock down effect and I'm not getting the snot beat out of me like you. Carrying the wieght is a small price to pay for all that and instant recovery too.

If you can't reload your double rifle quickly you need to practice. Thats not too tough either but its best done with a shotgun at the range.

Ozhunter,

I agree completely. If a fellow is good with a double rifle there will be plenty, plenty of instances where he will get two into an animal where a fellow with a bolt will only get one. If that fellow is good with his double rifle he will have gotten off his two and he'll be reloaded darn quick too.

JPK

JPK,

I'm just trying to get you going. This topic is getting way too serious. Shoot whatever you want, as I will also do.

Have a good Sunday.

Will
Are you comming to the Dallas Safari Convention?

The plan is to be there on Friday. Maybe I will see you there.

Will, If you do come to the show please bring me one of your books.
I will send you my cell phone number, and we will get together at the show.

Mac,
You are more than welcome to come along.I'm not concerned about saving ammo,I was going to bring a full box of 20 so that will leave me 10 extra after the 10 bulls.

Fred