Maybe it's all the snow that we've got this year and too much time indoors but I've been mulling over the idea the last couple of days of reaming my Sabatti 45-70 out to 45-110 or 45-120. My goal is to see if I can get Nitro Express velocities with a 400 grain CEB.

My Sabatti is a little light at 7.5 pounds but the Ruger Number 1 in 450/400 is right at eight pounds. A 16 oz. weight in the stock would help that issue.

Or I can leave it a 45-70 and continue to shoot deer with it.

Tyler

Make sure the rim diameter and rim thickness is the same to avoid alterations.

Keep the bullet weight the same so the rifling twist will spin the bullet with acceptable accuracy.

Work up your loads slow and check for pressure signs.

Should be a fun project!
Cal

Regulation to me would be the potential fly in the ointment.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Regulation to me would be the potential fly in the ointment.

Naw, just pull the dremel out of the tool chest.

Just kidding. Let us know how it works out.

I know I'm gonna get murdered for saying this but my gun is one with the muzzle problem. If I go to the pain of reaming the chamber out, I'll send it off to have the barrels cut back and proper regulation.

Kind of like lipstick on a pig.

Tyler

You may not need to shorten the barrels.
Re-crowning properly done may save the length.

Re- regulating will probably be required

I managed not to escape re-regulation on one Trail Guns Armory (Pedersoli) when we re-chambered it -- but not on a second one done in the same fashion

Did our very own Will not already do that with one of these guns?
I have often thought of a gun in 45-110,or even in the 450 Alaskan ackley improved.

quote:

Originally posted by touchdown88:
Maybe it's all the snow that we've got this year and too much time indoors but I've been mulling over the idea the last couple of days of reaming my Sabatti 45-70 out to 45-110 or 45-120. My goal is to see if I can get Nitro Express velocities with a 400 grain CEB.

My Sabatti is a little light at 7.5 pounds but the Ruger Number 1 in 450/400 is right at eight pounds. A 16 oz. weight in the stock would help that issue.

Or I can leave it a 45-70 and continue to shoot deer with it.

Tyler

Can you be more specific than "Nitro Express velocities" i.e. which Nitro Express cartridge using 400 grain projectile?

You can load .45-70 with 405 grain projectile to greater than 2,000 fps and not have cartridge case failures. You can go up to 2100 fps at about 45,000 psi chamber pressure.

.45-90 case with 400 grain projectile will get up to 2100 fps plus at about the same psi chamber pressure.

"Nitro Express" ??"" velocities will produce Nitro Express recoil, and that is OK if you can tolerate it and I suspect you can.

However, a real Nitro Express cartridge such as .450 #2 NE will provide 2175 fps with 480 grain projectile at only 11.5 tpsi chamber pressure.

You have to careful with these older engineered cartridge cases. My experience with making a .38-55 a .38-55 express cartridge with high velocities--is that when I get up to 50,000 psi or somewhat less chamber pressure the rear of the case cannot tolerate the pressure and blows the primers out the back of the case. I am shooting these in a DR that will tolerate more pressure than even this and weights 8.6 lbs.

It is an interesting experience when you fire off a couple of rounds and you do not notice any thing unusual and open the DR and the spent primers fall out of the cases before you extract the cases from the chambers. Then you know if you built the DR to the meet safety standards.

Tansvaal,

I was trying to mimic the 450/400 NE but with a 45-110 or 45-120. CEB and Barnes make 400 grain projectiles that I would like to use.

I believe the recoil would be too much if I tried to use the 480 grain bullets used by the 450 NE in my light rifle.

Tyler

What pressure can your gun take? Do you know?

The maximum pressure for my gun is 2200 BAR (3200 PSI). The 9.3x74R also comes in the same frame size but runs at 49,000 CIP compared to the 45-70 at 32000.

quote:

Originally posted by touchdown88:
The maximum pressure for my gun is 2200 BAR (3200 PSI). The 9.3x74R also comes in the same frame size but runs at 49,000 CIP compared to the 45-70 at 32000.

I ran several .45-110 loadings on "Quickload" with 400 .458" Barnes Orignals grain bullets and different common propellants, 3031 4831, R 15, R19; and with your 2200 BAR limit you cannot get to 2100 fps.

If 2200 bar is your limit, that is even below the chamber pressure of Buffalo Bore .45-70 Magnum ammo.

If I recall, the 2150 fps in the nitro loadings were taken from 28" barrels. To reach 2150 in, say, a 24" barrel would jump pressures a bit.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:

quote:

Originally posted by touchdown88:
The maximum pressure for my gun is 2200 BAR (3200 PSI). The 9.3x74R also comes in the same frame size but runs at 49,000 CIP compared to the 45-70 at 32000.

I ran several .45-110 loadings on "Quickload" with 400 .458" Barnes Orignals grain bullets and different common propellants, 3031 4831, R 15, R19; and with your 2200 BAR limit you cannot get to 2100 fps.

If 2200 bar is your limit, that is even below the chamber pressure of Buffalo Bore .45-70 Magnum ammo.

With the limitation on pressure it looks like this a no go.

Thanks for all the help. We've got a great group of guys on here.

Tyler

I have an NEF Buffalo Classic 30.5" bbl I took out to 45-120 and I have no trouble hitting 2200-2650 fs with 300-450 gr Rems, Speer's, True Shot, Hornady etc cast lead and jacketed bullets below 45KPSI.

I added weight to 11 lbs and a muzzle brake and even with those additions full power load recoil ISN'T PLEASANT...in the 60-90 plus ftlbs range...your Sabatti's 7.5 lbs would put that in the 85-100 ft lb range or higher...DEFINITELY NOT PLEASANT FOR DEER HUNTING and definitely not needed.

A 100% volume load of Trailboss with the 430 True Shot at 3.80" COAL is MUCH pleasanter to shoot, gives you ~35KPSI, ~2400 bar, ~1500 plus fs, and ~2200 ft lb energy or take your pick of the millions of other loads that can be shot in the 45-120 chamber with 45-70, 90, 100, 110 cases.

Were it me I would leave the Sabatti alone...I can see problems AND expense re-chambering a double, although I'm certain there are people that can do it correctly.

Besides I think a Turnbull levergun in 45-100 would be a fine addition or maybe another rifle in one of the larger cased off the shelf or wildcat 45 cals...

Physics is a mean, nasty, vengeful teacher in this game.

Luck

Throwing 16oz of weight in the butt will not help the balance.

A double rifle like a double shotgun should balance at (or just in front) the hinge pin.

My suggestion would be to leave it alone & use it as it sits & continue to shoot deer.

75% rule!
Economy of scale....
First try the 45-90 since you can still use 45-70 ammo as well as 45-90. I would try for 300 grain load @ 2,500 FPS within the PSI limits and hunt anything with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Did our very own Will not already do that with one of these guns?
I have often thought of a gun in 45-110,or even in the 450 Alaskan ackley improved.

Yes, Will turned his sabatti 45-70 into a 450 Nitro. He did not have it regulated and said it would shoot " minute of elephant". He ultimately sold it on the classifieds here I don't remember how much. You should send him a p.m. and get the details

Mankind is afflicted with an insatiable desire to "hot rod" everything and anything he owns/uses, e.g., cars, boats, airplanes, bicycles, etc...and firearms. The Sabatti .45-70 is capable of good accuracy; paper plates at 75 yards off hand. I have one: it is used for tracking and dispatching wounded plains game in the bosveld. The gun is ideal for this work; it is trim, relatively light and shoots an economical cartridge In, the field, max range of shots has been no more than 50 yards. My gun does not have ground muzzles. It shoots 450 grain factory loads, 325 grain Leverloution, and 405 grain handloads. I routinely carry a 405 grain in the right barrel and a 325 grain Leverlution in the left barrel. I know he sight picture for each round out to 50 yards. It performs as intended, having dispatched wounded plains game...and even a wounded lion. Modifying it is analagous to taking a pup tent, and then buying a lot of material to turn it into a squad tent. Just because you can do it doesn't make good sense. Use the gun as intended; it's light, carries well and does a good job if properly regulated and one's marksmanship skills are good. You are better served having it re-regulated if need be. I will be working in the South Africa safari industry beginning this March through August (my 9th year).

Totsiens...

Eagle One aka die Kolonel

quote:

Originally posted by touchdown88:
The maximum pressure for my gun is 2200 BAR (3200 PSI). The 9.3x74R also comes in the same frame size but runs at 49,000 CIP compared to the 45-70 at 32000.

The reason the same rifle can tolerate the 49,ooo CIP is because the case is much smaller than the case of the 45-70 giving the 9.3X74R a much thicker chamber wall than the 45-70 chamber. I would leave the rifle chambered the way it came from the maker.
The 45-70 is a good round, and will take anything available in North America, and almost everything in Africa as well!

..............................................................MacD37

I am ordering a .45-120 reamer from Manson this coming month. Going to lengthen the chambers on of my .45-70 DRs. A good POC on this board to discuss this cartridge with is jeffeosso. He calls it the .45-120 NE.

I think that I'll leave it alone for the time being.

Thanks everyone for all the helpful input.

Good decision. Excellent, in fact.

It is simple math:

45-70 ≠ 450 NE

You can rent a 45-120 reamer from two reamer rental shops also, at less than 1/3 the cost of a new reamer.

You will definitely run out of the pressure limits before you run out of velocity in your wannabe application...even doing a 45-90 will get you into trouble very quickly.

It definitely gets attention when you wave a 4.25" to 4.75" cartridge with a 700-750 gr bullet around...what you don't tell is it's downloaded enough to not rip your arm off when you fire it...even at that if you're careful and know what your doing you can get some impressive velo's within pressure limits...BUT...because my Norma 45-120 cases hold about 120 gr H2O and the 45-70 case is about 80 gr it costs upwards of twice the amount of slower burning powders which, while jacking up the velo/additional powder weight REALLY adds to the recoil...

I DEFINITELY WOULDN'T WANT TO TURN LOOSE SOME OF MY 45-120, 700 GR LOADS, NORMALLY SHOT IN A 30", 13# RIFLE(I weighed it since my last posting) IN A LIGHT SABATTI...those loads generate ~80 plus ftlbs recoil in that NEF...~2000fs/~6222ftlbs...100 gr powder...

It would be a neat black powder shooter and you could still shoot 45-70 although accuracy could suffer and you would need to clean shaved lead thoroughly, most likely.

LUCK