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Well gents, those of you that know me I've been here a long time and longed for a double, but the cost and limited scope of use kept me from buying one. I am now able to financially and a friend of mine put me onto these Sabbatis, and from what I've gathered talking with guys who know doubles, they all say Sabbatis are a great value. I'm flying out to Cabelas in Forth Worth in two weeks and thanks to a friend of mine they are going to have three rifles there for me to look at, a 470, 450 and a 450/400. I'm pretty familiar with the calibers but I've delved into Taylor, Boddington, etc.again and it keeps coming up 450/400 for me and the type of hunting I am apt to do in my life. So as always, I turn to the corporate knowledge here for real-time advice (Craig is in the Bush until November, man what a lucky SOD!). I probably have a few buffalo hunts left in my hunting career as well as leopard, but no lion and maybe, maybe one elephant. According to Taylor and Craig, the 450/400 is perfect for buffalo and adequate for elephant. The recoil is mild, plenty of comeercial ammo as well as Hornady bullets which is what this rifle is regulated for, in short a great all around caliber. So what do you all think? the 450/400 or go with the 450 or even the 470. Thanks in advance. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | ||
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I love telling folks how to spend THEIR money! Seriously, Jorge get the 450/400. You'll never regret it. Whatever double you get, I hope you like it as much as I like mine! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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the 470 has my heart, the 450/400 is easy to shoot opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jorge Given your future plans, 100%, 450/400! Best of luck! Deo Vindice, Don Sons of Confederate Veterans Black Horse Camp #780 | |||
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If you reload and are planning to also target shoot a lot go with a .450 caliber as the bullets (.458) are cheap and easy to find. If you don't reload get a .470 as it is the most common rimmed Nitro Express caliber so you can usually get what ever brand your rifle is regulated for when ever you need some. You will be happy with either one. When the buffalo are gone we will hunt mice, for we are hunters, and we want our freedom---Sitting Bull .470 Chapuis double; 9.3x74R Mathelon triple; 30-06 Winchester O/U | |||
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Me personally, I think the .450 NE would be the best of the bunch. The .470 in a Sabatti is going to be a bit too light. The .450/.400 is fine, but would not be the best choice for anything bigger than buffalo. The .450 will handle everything from ele on down. There are a multitude of .458 bullets available to load. Recoil is manageable, and the Sabatti in the .450 is just about the perfect weight, between 9.5 and 10 pounds. Mike | |||
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Jorge....grad the 450/400 and don't look back. Great caliber for all you spoke of. Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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Jorge, What Rusty, DoubleDon, and GarBy said in spades. Hollis | |||
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jorge, Boy am I glad I always check puter before bed. The 450/400 you are still in a .40 caliber gun. The 450/3.25in is also easy to load for and the 458 bullets are so available. To say the least the recoil is almost nothing. Compared to your Rigby. Good luck and will have to compete up here in the woods of PA. Mike | |||
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Thanks for all the replies so far gents. Mike your 450#2 rocked me back pretty well, I'm guessing the 450NE will be about the same. Still leaning strongly at the 400. This is so much fun, re-read some passages from both Taylor and Craig and they say the 400 penetrates better than the other two, but the 45s impress the buffs and elies more. Still two weeks to ponder and I'm sure once I get the and handle them and look at the factory targets, etc., it will go a long way to settle my decision. I'd forgotten what great books both Taylor's and Craig's are, lots of detail from two gents with a lot of experience. Thanks again guys. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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jorge You cannot go wrong with the 450/400. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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jorge go with the 450/400 you will love it, the others have more grunt, but the 400 will get the job done and the recoil is so that you can actually shoot it a lot during training sessions and get that rifle working for you. best peter | |||
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470 NE. There is a reason why more than half the annual output by Butch Searcy and many other makers are 470's. All of the big Double Rifles are meant for Dangerous Game. No PH is likely to let you shoot DG more than a hundred yards out. More like ten yards. JMHO, Rich DRSS | |||
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I have had two .470's and am having another double built right now. I was thinking of going with a .450 3.25" but have decided to make life simple and stick with the .470. I already have tons of brass bullets and reloading gear for the .470. If I had it to all over again I'd go with the .450 simply because of the vast choices available in bullets. Both rifles are identical in horsepower. The .450-400 is neat little rifle but I am just not to impressed with it when it comes to thumping stuff. I've seen the difference in hit between a .400 and .470 and it was noticeable. I don't think there is anything wrong with a .450-400 but I can shoot a .470 just fine no issue with recoil I've killed game at 200 yards with one on occasion and smack stuff at 100 to 150 yards all the time with my .470. I simply don't see any reason to move down in caliber. Now if I was a frail old retired Navy pilot I might have to consider a small caliber double.  | |||
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.450-400 DRSS | |||
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Jorge, the Sabatti rifles are really light for chamberings above the 450/400NE and is about perfectly weighted for the 450/400NE 3". The biggest chambering in that particular rifle I would buy is the 450NE 3 1/4”, but only if the 450/400NE 3" wasn't on the list. The convenience of having a .458 bullet supply is certainly a recommendation for that chambering, but my choice in that particular rifle would be the 450/400NE 3" hands down! I believe there is something to be said for a rifle you will shoot a lot, and a 9-10 pound double chambered for the 450/400NE 3" is a joy to shoot a lot, and the more you shoot the rifle the more you will like it, and get the best it has to offer! What ever you decide, let me welcome you to the wacky world of the double rifle, and the brotherhood of the DRSS! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Another thought on options. If you are intending to use the rifle to primarily shoot at the range, on pig hunts, etc., go with the .450/.400. If you intend to use it to chase big nasties in the thick stuff, I would go with the big option, the .450. When you are standing 20 yards away from something that can stomp you or squash you, you will appreciate the extra ump the bigger caliber (in bullet weight and diameter) will offer you. Just one man's opine. Mike | |||
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It's a good thing I still have almost two weeks to decide, I've spoken to some more of you and it seems like today anyway, the tide turns towards the 450 for some of the reasons you 450 proponents wrote plus it is a bigger hammer and it the same sized action. Then I stumble on an old article on Rifle Magazine by our own Ganyana that says; " I have never felt that a buff has been particularly impressed by any bullet under .50 caliber, and the difference in knockdown power between a 404 Jeffery and a 460 Weatherby isn't worth worrying about." My head's going to explode soon...  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Of course you could always do what I did ...  NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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As a 450/400 user, I will risk heresy and advise a 450. I like my 400 and it worked on Buffalo, but I still don't feel that it was optimal by any means. I don't have much experience so take it for what its worth. I, and a few others have had experiences with Woodleigh softs that led us to believe they are just a bit too soft, now Hornady is in the game and the initial reports are very positive and that is the bullet I would use if going back for buff. If I were only going to have one double and was doing it over again, I would look harder for a 450, fantastic bullet selection and quality, and a real edge if you bump into some large and highly pissed critter unexpectedly. The Sabatti can probably be brought up to weight and balance relatively cheaply, and you can shoot 350 or 400 grain practice loads without getting thumped too hard. They are both great cartridges, but a very real edge goes to the 450. Just my .02! DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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I am a novice with DRs and am still planning on my first DR. Let me tell you my experience. Two years ago I was in the US on business and srose & bikerider from AR kindly invited to me to shoot with them. I shot about 5 or 6 of their DRs from 45/70 to 600 NE. In between those - I shot the 9.3X74R, 450/400, 470NE & a 500NE or a 577 (I forget). Of all those rifles, I shot the 450/400 the best and at 25 yards I hit a clay target on the mound with my first shot! The recoil was very manageable - like my 9.3X62 Mauser. I actually found the 470 kicked worse than the 600NE as it was a much lighter rifle & the stock did not fit me. If it was me, I would be very happy with the 450/400 provided the rifle fit me properly. That is MOST critical factor for me. If I found 3 or 4 similar calibers to choose from - like 450/400, 450NE or 470, I would pick the one that fit me best. Now I need to find the money! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Jorge: I have a .450 N.E. for you to shoot at your leisure. I'll met you at my deer lease an hour up the road from you. I've had doubles in all three calibers and finally decided to get rid of the rest and go with the .450 N.E. for the reasons that MJimes relates. I'd also consider with which ammo the Sabatti is regulated. I am quite happy spending less than $90 a box for Hornady DGS ammo for my rifle, instead of the $200@box stuff. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Crap gents....I'm slightly less than 2 hours from Jorge....maybe I should bring my 450/400 (Demas V/C) up and shoot with you all! Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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Thanks, Ernest and Garby, I was hoping you guys would pipe up. Been on a business trip. Off again on Friday then next Wed I go to Dallas to check out the rifles. All three Sabbatis are regulated with Hornady ammo so I'm good there plus I have the load data to duplicate. Looks like the 450NE is edging up! USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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450/400 in those light guns. | |||
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Something to consider Jorge, just look around for Hornady 450/400 brass or ammo. It's all gone! Jamison brass is around for $10 extra. But there's lots of 450 ammo and brass right now. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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How many different bullets would you want to test in a 450? The sights are set for one specific load, any experimentation must needs end when both barrels of the rifle hit where the sights point. A 470 is much simpler. Just buy Woodleighs and stick as much 4831 (Searcy regulation powder) as you need to match the sights and regulation. All that eighteen bullets, eleven powders, six different primers is for bolt guys. Just a thought... Rich DRSS | |||
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Rich that is basiclly true, and makes life far easier. However, many different bullets can be made to regulate in a double rifle. First we have the 75% rule that with very little experimenting can make some very good light loads for cheap practice and hog rounds. There is something to the availability of the many good bullets in the .458 dia. Certainly for hunting Buffalo, or ele you certainly want proper bullets for the task, but those cheap bullets widen the usefulness of the rifle for other things other than DG hunting! The one thing I find with most double rifle owners is, they seem drawn to factory ammo. IMO, that is not the best use of the double rifle, and certainly not the frugle way to go about shooting one. Besides all that hand-loading your own ammo is part of the fun of owning a very special rifle system. I find that very few double rifles regulate their best with factory ammo, and also IMO I can load better ammo than factories! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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jorge: I was at Cabellas in Ft Worth last night and I looked at the Sabatti's they had in stock and all they had were 3 45/70's (basic) and 1 .500 (Delux). The salesperson said they had more coming and should be in by this weekend, but couldn't tell me what calibers were coming. I was interested in either a .450 or a .470. The 45/70's are really light and the stocks seemed a bit short for me, the .500 Delux was a pretty nice rifle. Karl Evans | |||
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Bigguy: They are holding three for me as of today, a 470, 450NE and a 450/400 until I get there on Thursday next. Thanks for the info though. I'm 5'10" so hopefully they will fit me. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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jorge: Great, if you don't decide on the .450 NE, let me know and I'll see if they will hold it for me. Karl Evans | |||
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Drop me a PM and I'll give you my cell number if you'd like USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Personally, I would choose the 9,3x74R for your first, because it certaintly will not be your last. Less expensive to shoot, deadly accurate, easy to carry, and big enough to drop the biggest biggest animal in NA with ease. Then once you "get your feet wet" you can look into acquiring a bigger double or two. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Jorge, The hunting you desribe is what the 450/400 was made for. The cartridge would be just about perfect. As much as I love the 450NE, it and its larger cousins only really come into their own when elephants are more than a one time or infrequent, occasional target. Have the rifle fitted with high quality QD mounts for a low sitting, low magnification variable too, imo. Then you have the best of both open sights and scope. A velcro on comb riser will make the scope work best, and would be as quickly removable or addable as the scope. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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+1 But don't disregard a lighter 4x36 Schmidt&Bender scope.  | |||
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450/400 and don't look back. Just finished shooting a 9.3x74R, 450/400 and 450NE (see my post here on DR forum). Recoil-wise - the 450/400 is a real pussycat. Seriously - I was surprised. Good luck and enjoy the hell out of whatever you get but put me on the 450/400 bandwagon for a "one-double, do all and have fun while doing it" gun. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I think unless a person is going to specialize in elephants, a scoped 450/400 is the best choice in a double for a Client. If you are going to shoot mostly buffalo and only a few elephants a 450/400 is plenty enough gun. Even if you will be shooting a bunch of cow elephants, with brain shots, then again the 450/400 is plenty enough gun. I have killed bull elephant with my 450/400 and would not hesitate to shoot a dozen of them with it. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Jorge, This is a fun problem to have isn't it!? | |||
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Jorge, Sensibly, a 450 or 470 is going to be a better killer on buff and elephant than anything smaller, including the marvellous 450/400. The 450/400 will do the job, as will a 375H&H, but few of us choose one of these if we have any choice. Should you in any way feel the bigger guns are difficult to master, and forget the macho bs, most modern 470's are probably a bit light and do kick quite badly. I've seen slow motion video of our BGRC guys shooting modern 470's that weigh less than 10 pounds and the dislocation and disruption to the shoulder area is profound. We Aussies reckon we're tough and grin and bare it, but I assure you in the long run we're not doing our joints any favours. it's not always about pure power, get as much as you can, but it must be CONTROLLABLE first and foremost. Best of luck with whatever choice you make. | |||
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I have been following this thread very closely as I have the same question. As mentioned above I liked the 450/400 I shot. My conclusion now is that I am going with a 450/400 as soon as i can find the money & the right rifle plus import arrangements. The real kicker for me is taht I will probably hunt one buffalo & MAY BE a cow elephant. For all other hunting & shooting the 450 or 470 are going to be way too heavy & hard on my shoulder. I think a 375 is just too close to my 9.3X62 bolt gun and 450/400. BUT.....I have also found a William Evans 450 NE here that is a real honey....and it also costs 5 times what a Sabatti does! So may be I should think of buying 2 Sabattis!!! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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