I know the market has been a bit soft for a while and no where near what it was 12 odd years ago.

Just curious. I am tempted ....

I’ve noticed a very significant decline in double rifle values over the last decade, as well. I think there has been a general demystification of double guns as newly made models have become more available. Couple this with the gravitation of most newer shooters and hunters to plastic and aluminum mass-produced rifles; vintage gun values have been further depressed.

Case in point, here is a Rigby 450 3.25” double that was listed at $30k USD on GI. https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=102426557 It was reduced to $23k, then again to $22k. I don’t believe you could touch a Rigby double for that 10 years ago. I saw a Westley Richards double sell on GB for $12k a couple of years ago! As with most things, I think vintage gun values might come back around. I fear that a resurgence of interest will be driven by a wave of nostalgia carrying through my grandchildren’s or great-grandchildren’s generations, though! I guess it’s a buyer’s market, though. Live it up!!

I believe as a general matter that list prices are too high these days, even though they are low by historic standards. They do not yet reflect that the market has declined.

Kind of like the housing market!

If one watches list prices for double rifles, as wildcatter has done with that Rigby boxlock, they do tend to come down over time, but it often takes a long time. I'd guess that the seller of that Rigby would sell it for even less than the current $22,595 asking price. If I were interested in buying it, I would make an offer out of the gate of 20-25% less than the asking price.

Outside of public auctions, where the prices realized are made available, it is difficult or impossible sometimes to find out what the actual sales price for any given double rifle may have been.

I think the demographics are changing as well, diminishing the demand for double rifles. We grew up reading Ruark, Roosevelt, Hemmingway and the like, dreaming of hunting wild Africa with big bore doubles. The generations that follow, if they hunt at all, are less nostalgic. In reality, there's really little to justify a double rifle....limited range and accuracy and an outlay 5-10 times what a quality bolt rifle would cost.

If you wish to buy a double to use then buy a new one. You cannot compare an 80-100 year old rifle with a modern one. My two bits.

Way down; we all watched the rise in demand and values over the past 4 decades; we, meaning us here, all grew up in the middle of it. And for some strange reason I can't explain, we all got the DRs, and also got old. The next generation (your kids), want nothing to do with anything with a wood stock, let alone one with two barrels and big holes in them.
So, the bubble is burst; demand is down, and so are prices.
What I see is a good time to buy!

Interesting discussion, I would say some double rifle prices are down, not all. The exceptional stuff still brings real money and moves well. Middle of the road, working doubles have definitely softened in price. Bolt guns and single shots are bringing VERY strong money, shocking at times if you ask me.

Markets are hard to predict, I buy what I like and I am usually drawn quality and condition. My most recent double rifle acquisition, a Stephen Grant snap action sidelock in 500-450 #1 express

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Interesting discussion, I would say some double rifle prices are down, not all. The exceptional stuff still brings real money and moves well.

Good point.

Holland & Holland Royals, Westley Richards drop locks and Rigby rising bites in particular command high prices.

Here's a nice modern made but classic Westley Richards drop lock in .470 N.E. coming up for auction at Rock Island in May.



Here's a nice old Holland in .500-.450 N.E. coming up at the same auction.

I call it "the Cabelas Double Bubble!!"... they were rounding up all of the great old British doubles and adding thier 30% mark up... in the late 80s and 90s... alot of buyers jumped in at those inflated prices... then the Crash of 2008 brought that train to a halt!! ... but then the guys that bought in, desperately tried to get thier money back!!
I saw an old HOLLIS 577 short, with some Alaska movie provenance, go from $12k from its Canadian seller, to $20s, and finally $33,500 at Cabelas, Dallas, late 90s... and it sold!! CRAZY...
Now the great old WR and H&H, that used to have 2000 man hours in build, before CnC and EDM welding, generally still follow the Mercedes Benz market ... the used models follow the new prices ever upward!!
Frankly, I don't really see anything better in the new stuff than the grand old British guns!!
Mine are all pre-War and they hunt great!!
I have let my GUNS and AMMO and PETERSON'S HUNTING subscriptions lapse with all the plastic and auto loaders. The only reason for all of these new Whiz-Bang new cartridges is to sell more new guns!!... I don't buy it!! ....

CHEERZ,

I sure miss Cal Pappas posts here in this forum!!

BTW, his collection of some 17 old British doubles, to 4 Bore, are being photographed as we speak. Appears they will go to an auction house for liquidation??!!

I have suggested they be offered here on AR, but the logistics of selling and shipping each one is daunting for the Executor!!

His home was broken into and many things stolen, including his cellphone and computer with all of his photos and book manuscripts. Guns were in his safe...

I miss Cal and Tom, both. It’s been a rough couple of years having lost so many knowledgeable and witty members!

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
I sure miss Cal Pappas posts here in this forum!!

BTW, his collection of some 17 old British doubles, to 4 Bore, are being photographed as we speak. Appears they will go to an auction house for liquidation??!!

I have suggested they be offered here on AR, but the logistics of selling and shipping each one is daunting for the Executor!!

His home was broken into and many things stolen, including his cellphone and computer with all of his photos and book manuscripts. Guns were in his safe...

I didn't hear he was broken into. That sucks to lose all that information to a crook.

The latest Holt's Auction coming up March 25 there is a William Evans 470 with an Estimate of 2k - 5k Sterling

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
The latest Holt's Auction coming up March 25 there is a William Evans 470 with an Estimate of 2k - 5k Sterling

If it is decent it will bring much more, at a minimum be sure to get a condition report on it. If you win I can help you import it if you wish.
Steve

I agree!!... maybe a "0" missing, maybe 20k Sterling for a Lang, a quality maker.

It was not uncommon to have quality doubles sent back to maker for refurbishment after many hard seasons. This doesn't affect the value like it would a pre-64 Model 70 Winchester. There are alot of Trade restorations out there too, and they don't restore the bores!!
Small calibers, say below .400 don't bring the money of the Dangerous game bores ...
The key, do they shoot with modern loads??
Lots to consider!!

❤ That was the rifle that motivated my OP.

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
The latest Holt's Auction coming up March 25 there is a William Evans 470 with an Estimate of 2k - 5k Sterling

In 2018 I won an auction on Holts for a Verney Carron Demas 470NE at 2000 GBP. It cost me US$4500 landed in my house.

I sold it 2023 and recovered costs including all the extras.

The buyer got a great deal at $6000 and is very happy.

Graeme Wright got to shoot the rifle recently.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Graeme Wright got to shoot the rifle recently.

I am surprised Graeme would lower himself to shoot a "Continental" Double!!

Lol

Obviously Graeme is not a snob. I've seen the photos from Brisbane rifle range.

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Graeme Wright got to shoot the rifle recently.

I am surprised Graeme would lower himself to shoot a "Continental" Double!!

I think the biggest price differences come first from bespoke makers: Purdey, Holland and Holland, Rigby, and Westley Richards, custom ordered for a specific buyer. Next the action type, ie Sidelock, WR Droplock, Rigby Rising-bite, and the plain Jane Boxlock....they all made boxlocks. Then there are the better "Trade makers" like Lang, William Evans, on down the line to the Jeffreys, many made by Leonard, on and on to Army and Navy, made by many.They all have their respective price ranges... some is just popularity, just like calibers, and more recently those supported by ammo makers like Hornady,Federal, Norma, and Kynoch. Handloading not required.
Today, one must be careful about restorations. This was originally started by Walter Clode, owner of Westley Richards, searching the world, including Maharajas family collections, returning them to UK and restored in the WR factory. In the 80s and 90s the practice continued by another team and were restored in the British Trade very tastefully... but again, bores not restored!!... some lipstick on the pig!!...by the hundreds... not kidding!!
When buying old doubles, it is wise to contact the maker, or holder of the ledgers, and get a copy of the original build ledger specs by serial number, and returns to the maker for upgrades, barrels, calibers, scope/rings, etc. You will learn alot from these records, and maybe a build for a famous luminary!!... that might add great value, previously undiscovered!!
You also might find a 375 21/2" rebored to 375Flanged Magnum... a real NO, NO!! Maybe dangerous??
All of these factors play into the present market value of great old British doubles!!
Buy Wisely...so you aren't surprised later!! Very Expensive Mistakes can be avoided...

Another part of the Double Rifle market is the average age of the long time collectors and hunters focused on Great Double rifles. There are alot of these estates coming to market these days, and often to the Auction blocks.
As Nakihunter has shared, there are bargains out there in auctions. I was steered to an auction house by fellow AR Member Colin Masters, and I landed a nice Jeffrey 400, at about one third the market value!! COVID distractions I guess??
On the other hand, if there is an item out there that two rogue bulls are going after, Katie bar the Door... who knows where it will end??!!... then there is the Buyer's Commissions hitting 25 to 28%, then shipping and insurance... it really adds up quickly today... and ADDS NOTHING TO THE VALUE OF YOUR PURCHASE!!
We often see the results of these BATTLES later on Brokers sites at prices well in excess of market... buyers trying to get thier money back!! NYET!!
I believe there is a good example of this languishing on a Texas brokers site for a couple years now... no budging!! I have tried!!
One of the greatest resources we all have as AR MEMBERS is just posting your interests and desires here and most of the time something will imerge from hidden places!!
GO FOR IT!!.... just be patient... Prices are going DOWN...as more estates come to market!!...and there is some great stuff out there, too!!

CHEERZ,

I love English hammer doubles, both rifle and shotgun. Have owned many others but still prefer the nitro hammer doubles for hunting dangerous game. Great value for the those who know what to look for.

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
I sure miss Cal Pappas posts here in this forum!!

BTW, his collection of some 17 old British doubles, to 4 Bore, are being photographed as we speak. Appears they will go to an auction house for liquidation??!!

I have suggested they be offered here on AR, but the logistics of selling and shipping each one is daunting for the Executor!!

His home was broken into and many things stolen, including his cellphone and computer with all of his photos and book manuscripts. Guns were in his safe...

Oh Sh...
Did you have more infos?
thx.

That's all I know now.

I expect it will be a couple of months before the collection makes it to an auction house. My contact knows I am interested on one old BP rifle, so hopefully he will let me know where and when? I promise to report here when I hear anything.

I will be watching the various auction houses, several friends do as well, and other members here do as well. News will travel...

It is important the estate raises good money as Cal's Mother is living in assisted care and the funds will help support her.

DUTCH 44, I agree completely.... one of the truly hidden values in great old British Double Rifles... almost as sweet as a British girl's accent... ( I have been watching the latest MAGNUM PI series...HIGGIE!!)

CheerZ,

The William Evans 470NE went for GBP 11500!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
The William Evans 470NE went for GBP 11500!!!

Low estimate to garner interest, I am not surprised.

Just after posting I ran into this TGS YouTube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtDzjJwES0A

With Simone from Holt's at one point they talk about estimates making them attractive so folks will bid ....

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
The William Evans 470NE went for GBP 11500!!!

That's about half price if it was in nice shape and the bores good!!...even if it was the hammer price... not including Buyer's commission, shipping, export, import, duty and insurance!!??... depending where it is going...

If anyone is looking for a neat little 375Flanged 21/2" double, there are two languishing on Guns International, Pintos Gunshop, that can be had for reasonable offers... a GREENER Fascel Princeps grade, and a simple Cogswell and Harrison. Make offers, before the store owner buys them for his collection!!

I've been watching these old doubles myself. I have an 1892 vintage Charles Osborne, 450-.400 3-1/4". I've considered selling.

I was going to send it to Champlin's to sell at DSC/SCI but decided against it. George estimated it at 10K. I think IIRC I paid 12,500.

Steve,
In that vintage rifle, that would be the old Black Powder load, and should display BP Proof Marks, not NITRO EXPRESS proofs.

You need to be careful with that old girl and say modern Hornady loads you can buy. You should ask some knowledgeable people like George or Ken Owen, or JJ Perodeau about proper loadings.

Newer doubles, say after 1912, for the 450-400 31/4 were Nitro Proofed.

BP rifles don't bring the money of a NE of same caliber!!

470 -

Out of curiosity, I got the CO out and looked at the proof marks.

60 Cordite -400MAX 400EX is all that is stamped.

All my info came from Cal. He examined it when we were in Australia on a Buffalo hunt. he researched the serial# to 1892. That is ALL I know.

I am not an have never claimed to be a DR expert. I just like to hunt with them.

Well, CORDITE is certainly Nitro!!

I will ask some experts when Cordite was introduced??

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Well, CORDITE is certainly Nitro!!

I will ask some experts when Cordite was introduced??

I'm shooting 83 gr IMR4831 with 400gr Woodleighs.

Thanks, I'd be anxious to know the date if it isn't 1892. Now that I think about it, after I received it from Champlins, I posted a photo here. The owner that had it on consignment at Champlins posted the date as well. Again, it's been a bunch of years so I may be fuzzy on it.

Here is the result of a Google search with question: When was Cordite invented or introduced?

https://www.google.com/search?...rome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

The answer 1889!!

Another way knowledgeable buyers differentiate is to weigh the barrels. Nitro Express barrels are much heavier than BP barrels of the same caliber...like the 450-400 31/4"... which was originally a BP round, and later transitioned to Nitro.

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Here is the result of a Google search with question: When was Cordite invented or introduced?

https://www.google.com/search?...rome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

The answer 1889!!

Another way knowledgeable buyers differentiate is to weigh the barrels. Nitro Express barrels are much heavier than BP barrels of the same caliber...like the 450-400 31/4"... which was originally a BP round, and later transitioned to Nitro.

Interesting, Thanks. When you made the comment about it being a BP rifle, the barrel diameter made me doubt that.

Cal also told me that Charles Osborne records of provenance were largely destroyed in the WW2. Its really in great shape, super tight on face and shoots unbelievably. I killed a 49" Buffalo with it in Tanzania with Wayne Grant a few years ago.

On second thought, I think I'll keep it.

The Nitro Express hammer guns are really a treasure!! You just don't see them advertised much any longer!!

YUP, that build date had me fooled... I woudda bet $100 bucks on BP!! Surprised me...

Yes,the Nitro guns would have much more stout barrels for the higher pressures...

You have "a blooded" keeper!!

I think from this side of the pond challenges of flying with big bore rifles, the UK ban on any export of firearms to Zimbabwe, including personal hunting rifles and the loss to UK hunters of the European Firearms Pass* has meant that most of us travelling to Africa for plains or big game hunting or to Europe for wild boar has just got too hard, so little point in buying a double for overseas hunting. It is so much less embuggerance to just borrow a rifle at the other end. So when a double rifle comes up for sale there is little domestic demand.

The double shotgun market is also pretty soft. Good quality fine guns in original condition by top makers that are still trading or very well known (Rigby, Purdey, Boss, Dickson etc) make good money. The second grade, especially bought in trade guns from top names, and those from good names, but no longer with us are very reasonable. As for boxlocks - you get a lot of gun for under £1,000.

*The EFP allowed a holder to travel through and Europe use firearms very easily. Member states of EFP will grant one to a holder of a domestic licence. So travelling to hunt - through your guns in the back of the car and just drive. The UK on leaving the EU waived away our right to the EFP (it’s not an EU thing and non EU countries also use it), so we now have visitors firearms permits for each and every country we transit.

i spoke to George Caswell recently and he advised that buyers today are going for the new manufactured doubles over the older vintage guns. Chapuis and Krieghoff among others.