What if it was regulated right proper with American fodder.

What if it had:

Ejectors
Extended bottom tang.
Steel grip cap.
Cheek piece.
Double trigger.
xxx and higher grade wood as standard.
fitted case.
Choice of 450 NE, 470 NE or 500 NE.

Delivered to your door for under 9K.

Is it possible?

Yes, it's possible... but it takes volume to get there.

what is your idea of volume?

IF, IF, IF it is possible...please put my name first on the waiting list.

As you discribed, but in a 9.25 lb 450/400 please.

Thanks

I dunno. But I agree with AZGuy... if you can pull it off and I can get my hands on a .450NE regulated for Hornady ammo I would seriously consider it.

quote:

I dunno. But I agree with AZGuy... if you can pull it off and I can get my hands on a .450NE regulated for Hornady ammo I would seriously consider it.

On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died.

+ 1,.... I'm also in for a 450 NE regulated for Hornady ammo.

AA wood would work for me..heavy coarse checkering... case colors, no engraving...... no hard case, soft leather takedown case....450/400

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
what is your idea of volume?

Sorry, Adam. I guess I spoke too soon and should have elaborated a bit.

If the challenge is to offer 15K worth of quality in a rifle for 9K, then the only way I see to do that is to eliminate as many options as possible and produce as many copies as possible - increasing effeciency to the point that costs can be driven down. To thier credit, Merkel and Chapuis do a good job of this. A new Merkel sells for about 9K in Germany today.

If the challenge is to build a 9K rifle with commensurate quality, then that shouldn't be too difficult to do.

There's no secret in the gun world (double or otherwise) that time, cost and quality are directly related. Spend less time building something, and the cost goes down. Spend more, etc...

But what is volume?
20 guns, 50, 250?
OK, lets build 500.

Question:
If a double shotgun of moderately high quality (SxS) can be made for say $5,000, and it can, then why can’t a double rifle be made for a close to comparable cost?

Since you use Merkel as a paradigm I will too.
They build a fine sxs shotgun for the price mentioned above. So you could easily reason that their profit margin is much higher in the rifle. Yes, you can argue the extra labor for the regulation and such. However, the truth is that when you are building as many double rifles as Merkel does, and others in the price range of $10,000-$17,000 do, then you have a system of efficiency regarding regulation. It can and is done with expediency. Time is money as you pointed out.

And what options? Ejectors? In reality the makers in that introductory double rifle market have designed those double rifles to be very easy and inexpensive to manufacture regardless of any “options” save higher grade wood or hand engraving. There is an intrinsic cost in those items.
These guns are not the complication of mechanism that an Anson and Deeley boxlock is.

In the end, Merkel, or Chapuis, or Heym or Blaser or Kreighoff double rifles do not take that much more time to build than does a Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, or Blaser, or Kreighoff shotgun. I believe everyone knows that in their own mind and that is the disgruntled rumble that is spoken over mopane campfires and a second scotch…”why the hell do they cost so much more than a shotgun?”
And why does a 470 cost more than a 375 or a 9.3x74? That is a farce.

It is simply a smaller market and they want the lions share of profit for building an item that sells in much smaller numbers, period.

For you to suggest that there is a “challenge to build a 9krifle...of a 15k rifle quality” is similar to saying it is a challenge for a gun builder to build a shotgun of high quality at a price of maybe 7k that is worthy of 13k…and everyone knows you can buy a HIGH quality shotgun for $7,000 large!

In the end the difference in the dollars spent by the maker is no more than the 2k for the barrel work. Not for a large production gun maker it is not.

What needs to happen is for a quality builder to be interested enough in that double rifle market to forgo the higher profits in an effort to capture a share of that market. Nothing more than that.

I think your argument about why they cost more than a shotgun
and why larger calibres cost more should also be applied to US manufacturers - ie Remington, Winchester et al.

Same rules apply.

A couple of years ago I had a builder ask me to do a particular job in his structures for a certain price. I asked him what happened to the last guy, and he said he went broke. I told him the price he wanted was less than it cost me to do the work. It barely covered material and labor and only got about half of the overhead, with zero profit. He said "well I have bunch of them to build." And so I said "so I can lose a whole bunch of money?"

Rifles, double and otherwise, are the same. If you are trying to shoot for that bottom dollar price point you are just going to get an inferior product and the builder is not going to be around long. Just pay for the good stuff the first time, its cheaper in the long run.

Or not,
j

Contact Alex Roy at Euro Optics. . He will sell you a brand new Blaser S2 in .375, 500/.416, .470, or .500 NE express for $8000. You can get one with a really nice piece of wood for $9,000 or less. Think about that... a .500 NE for eight grand and he has them in stock and will send you pictures so you can pick out the wood you like.

quote:

Originally posted by Josh A.:
A couple of years ago I had a builder ask me to do a particular job in his structures for a certain price. I asked him what happened to the last guy, and he said he went broke. I told him the price he wanted was less than it cost me to do the work. It barely covered material and labor and only got about half of the overhead, with zero profit. He said "well I have bunch of them to build." And so I said "so I can lose a whole bunch of money?"

Rifles, double and otherwise, are the same. If you are trying to shoot for that bottom dollar price point you are just going to get an inferior product and the builder is not going to be around long. Just pay for the good stuff the first time, its cheaper in the long run.

Or not,
j

Well said.


Builders of the guns WILL cut corners if they are building to a price point,
even though the exterior may look the same.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Josh A.:
A couple of years ago I had a builder ask me to do a particular job in his structures for a certain price. I asked him what happened to the last guy, and he said he went broke. I told him the price he wanted was less than it cost me to do the work. It barely covered material and labor and only got about half of the overhead, with zero profit. He said "well I have bunch of them to build." And so I said "so I can lose a whole bunch of money?"

Rifles, double and otherwise, are the same. If you are trying to shoot for that bottom dollar price point you are just going to get an inferior product and the builder is not going to be around long. Just pay for the good stuff the first time, its cheaper in the long run.

Or not,
j

Well said.


Builders of the guns WILL cut corners if they are building to a price point,
even though the exterior may look the same.

I think you guys are missing his point. Take a look at a $5,000 Merkel shotgun. Same wood, same finish level, same action. There are 3 major differences, sights, barrels, regulation. Do those things cost/add $4-6,000 to the price?

So to expand on Josh's example. Merkel is making buildings for $5,000,000 and making a profit. They build another type of building with better windows and a stronger design which cost 50% more to build but sells for 100% more.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I think your argument about why they cost more than a shotgun
and why larger calibres cost more should also be applied to US manufacturers - ie Remington, Winchester et al.

Same rules apply.

His point is that a .243 costs the same as a 300 win mag and a 20 gauge costs the same as a 12 gauge.

Can you imgine being told that a 12 gauge shotgun costs 50% more then a 20 gauge! You'd tell them they were insane, but in the double rifle world it is fine.

If you want a big bore double at a reasonable price and you are not afraid of something a little different:

http://www.eurooptic.com/Blase...dor=XXBL&parent=XXBL

Mr. Freeman, I have a great idea, I think! That is for YOU to open shop and build the double rifle you discribe for under 9K, one or one hundred. If you get the quality that comes in double rifle the incorperate all the features you ask for, I'll buy the first two off the line, one in 500NE, and the other a 450/400NE 3".

My suggestion to you is, if you want a double rifle of any quality of fit and finish, that will shoot someplace on a barn door with both barrels,and with the features you ask for, pay the piper pal cause you ain't gonna get them cheaper. Cheap, and double rifle don't belong in the same post!

.......................Let us know when the rifles are ready for sale, I'll be saveing my money up to buy a couple!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
If you want a big bore double at a reasonable price and you are not afraid of something a little different:

http://www.eurooptic.com/Blase...dor=XXBL&parent=XXBL

Dave, the only thing that makes it legal to call the Blaser a double rifle is because it has more than one barrel. It is simply not a platform for a cartridge that is designed for hunting of large dangerous game. That thing is a mauling waiting to happen, and is, IMO, priced too high at $3k, and is theft of funds at $8K.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
If you want a big bore double at a reasonable price and you are not afraid of something a little different:

http://www.eurooptic.com/Blase...dor=XXBL&parent=XXBL

Dave, the only thing that makes it legal to call the Blaser a double rifle is because it has more than one barrel. It is simply not a platform for a cartridge that is designed for hunting of large dangerous game. That thing is a mauling waiting to happen, and is, IMO, priced too high at $3k, and is theft of funds at $8K.

Mac:

Thank you for sharing your opinion about Blaser rifles with us once again. but please bear in mind that others may have a different view.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Mac:
Thank you for sharing your opinion about Blaser rifles with us once again. but please bear in mind that others may have a different view.

............

Dave util they re-design the cocking system to re-cock it's self on opening, you will hear the warnings that say price is not the only thing that matters with double rifles used for dangerous game.

The Blaser cocking system is OK, for deer hunting, but it is not the best choice for takeing on things like Cape Buffalo, or lion. Both can take a lot of punishment with multiple shots before they are sorted out, and any extra task that can be avoided durring the fight is a smart move.

Blaser would sell a lot more rifles if they re-designed the rifle to re-cock on opening, after fireing, and remain off safety. It wouldn't add much to the price but would be worth a fortune in a tight spot.

The reason I keep harping on this subject is because there are lots of young folks who visit this forum, and they simply don't know that the Blaser has this problem, and tend to look only at price, and the fact that it has two barrels. To them that makes it equal to all other doubles, and it is surely not.

Dave you know as well as I do that there are double rifles, and then there are REAL DUUBLE RIFLES, and the price difference is not that much, when you consider the draw-backs of one over the other.

There is nothing personal in my posts on this subject, only stateing the facts so nobody is buying blind! If anyone wants to buy the Blaser, that is his choice, but I believe he should be aware of the facts before he desides,not based simply on price!

There is nothing wrong with you reccomending the Blaser to folks, but make them aware of the fact that it has an auto safety, and decocks itself if opened for any reason, and must be manually re-cocked before it can be fired again! Or don't you think they need to know that before they spend $8000 bucks on the rifle?
.............................

I have been informed that they are in production of 450, 470 and 500 nitro double rifles to be offered below 9K, LH configuration included.

It will be interesting when someone who knows their stuff gets their hands on one at a shooting range and then reports back here.

I don't know if I can wait that long. The itch is getting pretty bad. Going to have to scratch it pretty soon.

Mac:

I am bringing my S2 .470 and my Krieghoff .500/.416 down there to Texas for you to shoot. I'll work the safety for you on the Blaser and two fellow AR members have already volunteered to "help" put the gun to your shoulder.

Mac, trust me, the safety on the Blaser is not a problem once you get used to it. The only "drawback" about the S2 is that they are heavy. My .470 weighs 11.66 pounds. That's pretty heavy for a .470 but maybe just right for a .500. As you can imagine, the recoil of the .470 at that weight, especially with about 88-90 grains of Reloder 15 is really, really manageable.

When I come down, I will bring a bottle of Colorado Whiskey with me. It's the finest whiskey I have ever tasted. You'll like it too. I'll even let you have a small nip before you shoot the S2 to ease the pain

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
I have been informed that they are in production of 450, 470 and 500 nitro double rifles to be offered below 9K, LH configuration included.

It will be interesting when someone who knows their stuff gets their hands on one at a shooting range and then reports back here.

I don't know if I can wait that long. The itch is getting pretty bad. Going to have to scratch it pretty soon.

Who are "they" ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:
I have been informed that they are in production of 450, 470 and 500 nitro double rifles to be offered below 9K, LH configuration included.

It will be interesting when someone who knows their stuff gets their hands on one at a shooting range and then reports back here.

I don't know if I can wait that long. The itch is getting pretty bad. Going to have to scratch it pretty soon.

Who are "they" ?

The OP on this thread. Top of the page. Their webpage is hot linked.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Mac:

I am bringing my S2 .470 and my Krieghoff .500/.416 down there to Texas for you to shoot. I'll work the safety for you on the Blaser and two fellow AR members have already volunteered to "help" put the gun to your shoulder.

Mac, trust me, the safety on the Blaser is not a problem once you get used to it. The only "drawback" about the S2 is that they are heavy. My .470 weighs 11.66 pounds. That's pretty heavy for a .470 but maybe just right for a .500. As you can imagine, the recoil of the .470 at that weight, especially with about 88-90 grains of Reloder 15 is really, really manageable.

When I come down, I will bring a bottle of Colorado Whiskey with me. It's the finest whiskey I have ever tasted. You'll like it too. I'll even let you have a small nip before you shoot the S2 to ease the pain

Dave if your happy with the Blaser I have no problem with the fact! I have shot the K-guns and if the Blaser had the same system I'd not be so hard on them, but the factory needs to re-think that system, and copy the K-gun's deal.

As far as the whiskey goes, Thanks but I prefere Cajun coffee! That don't mean we can;t sit accross the table and cuss and discuss,that ugly rifle of yours. Are you coming to the DSC show in Dallas in Jan.? If so why not plan on going down to the ranch to meet a lot of the guys,for some double rifle shooting , and wild hog hunting! Get in the weeds with one of those 300 pounders and we'll see how fast you can re-load that Blaser!

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:


The OP on this thread. Top of the page. Their webpage is hot linked.

Who are you looking to make the guns ?


SIACE ?

Please, I do not want to bruise anyones delicate sensibilities.



My belief is simple:

If a high quality shotgun with the barrels SxS can be built for $5,000 then an equally high quality double rifle can be built for a couple/few thousand dollars more.

The proof is...numerous makers sell 9.3x74's for well under the accepted average price of todays available big bore doubles.
Why is that?
It is not complicated math.

The problem with the affordable new made doubles is the way they feel/handle.

If someone would make a double that handles and feels JUST like the ones made for the trade, such as Army & Navy, London Sporting Park Limited etc.

I think Webley was a big maker of these.

If a double could be made on a copy of this action with the same geometry and if it could sell for 9 to 12K you could sell all you could make.

Use modern manufacturing techniques to make an "original" British double.

NE 450,
That is the dream.

The fly in the ointment for the last few decades (my belief) has been that those that manufacture guns whom set out to build a "double rifle" first approach the project with their engineer and accountants.

It is what we are all referring to when we speak of "cutting corners".

Why must they try to redesign the wheel? Why? To make the wheel less expensive to manufacture.

One of the first three prototypes pictured below. It has low grade wood on it. All the guns since then are wearing higher grade wood as standard.

There are several around the world being torture tested. They are doing great.

Steel reinforced action based on the British Tradition.
Solid one piece rib with the quarter rib integral, sites are dovetailed in.

Best of all they are all regulated with U.S. ammo and they all shoot under 2 inches at 50 yards. They will come with the test target. Most are shooting even better than that. Half of them shoot under an inch.

We are pleased with them and have been working towards this result for some time.

O Ya.

Non auto safety. and they are cock on opening.

We will also consider trades of other rifles towards your purchase.

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
One of the first three prototypes pictured below. It has low grade wood on it. All the guns since then are wearing higher grade wood as standard.

There are several around the world being torture tested. They are doing great.

Steel reinforced action based on the British Tradition.
Solid one piece rib with the quarter rib integral, sites are dovetailed in.

Best of all they are all regulated with U.S. ammo and they all shoot under 2 inches at 50 yards. They will come with the test target. Most are shooting even better than that. Half of them shoot under an inch.

We are pleased with them and have been working towards this result for some time.

OK, so the picture above of a sub 9K Double.

Which of these features does it have ?


What if it had:

Ejectors
Extended bottom tang.
Steel grip cap.
Cheek piece.
Double trigger.
xxx and higher grade wood as standard.
fitted case.
Choice of 450 NE, 470 NE or 500 NE.


Another question
What type of lump does it have ?

By the line on the barrels, have the Barrels been sleeved into an existing block ?

It has all those features listed.

It is monoblock.

and no, it is not a Siace gun.

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
It has all those features listed.

It is monoblock.

and no, it is not a Siace gun.

I Don't think much of your xxx wood or is it a case of "bracket creep"
where what used to be X is now XXX because XXX is now XXXXX !!!


Which brings me to the question of wood.

What type of walnut is it, where did it come from ?

Hopefully corners have not been cut with the wood
and it was properly dried etc etc.

Please read the post above. Please read it carefully.
Notice my mention that the rifle pictured is LOW GRADE WOOD.
The gun pictured is one of the first dozen rifles built..."prototypes".

As for wood on the guns to be sold you can rest assured they have nice wood.

I will even go so far as to say this. It is nicer wood than you will see on other available rifles costing more $.

Luxus Walnut controls and sells a great deal of the wood that the European gunmakers use on their guns.
Offering the wood is easy for us to do.

The wood is Turkish walnut.

To further clarify.
here is the grade of wood on the guns.

and

I said before that to make a sub 9K gun you would have to cut corners

Solid one piece rib with integral Qtr Rib and Front Sight is a lot easier to make on a machine than all parts made separately and fitted separately.

Engraving looks machined - not a look I personally like.

As long as you compare it to others of similar, that's fine but don't go comparing it to better quality guns, only highlighting certain points that you want to highlight.

BTW - I don't have an agenda here, just being devil's advocate.

Good luck with your project.

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
Please read the post above. Please read it carefully.
Notice my mention that the rifle pictured is LOW GRADE WOOD.
The gun pictured is one of the first dozen rifles built..."prototypes".

As for wood on the guns to be sold you can rest assured they have nice wood.

I will even go so far as to say this. It is nicer wood than you will see on other available rifles costing more $.

Luxus Walnut controls and sells a great deal of the wood that the European gunmakers use on their guns.
Offering the wood is easy for us to do.

The wood is Turkish walnut.

Question I have is how come you have come across so much ripper walnut ready to use yet most other walnut seems to be in shorter supply or to sit around being dried for ages before being able to be used ?

500N
Thats fine.
You can buy this gun for under 20k.

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
500N
Thats fine.
You can buy this gun for under 20k.

Is that a regression to the past with a Silver's Recoil pad ?


Thanks, but I have enough double rifle's without buying any more.


.

500N
I have been in most of the European manufacturers facilities at one time or another.
We sell many of them their wood for the guns they sell...to you.

This gun under 9k is easily equal to the best guns of the seven makers that are presently building "intro" double SxS rifles.

As for the remaining makers of the above mentioned group, it can be argued this gun is superior. If one believes that a gun based on an Anson and Deeley system with all other components being based on traditional double rifles of the British empire to be "superior".
One would have a hard time making a case to the contrary regarding this rifle.

It was our goal to build something close to traditional yet keeping the cost low.
It does not have to be done by cutting corners. It can be done by efficient manufacturing by a gunmaker that has over 40 years of experience building SxS double rifles as does this guns assembly of builders.

All the reports back from those using the guns in the field indicate the gun is going to be very well received and that the quality is beyond the introductory price of $8,750.