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 At DSC 2014 I was strolling by the CSMC displays, the RBL Professional 20 gauge sabot slug gun came immediately to mind ... and who was that resting his sore feet, sitting in a chair over there? Why Tony Galazan himself!  Then Tony Makris himself walked up and started prowling among the shotguns as I stood there looking at the display tables before me. Shockingly sycophantic praise erupted from my mouth: "I'll be danged, if it ain't Tony 'Under Wild Skies' Makris! Best show on TV! Better than 'Duck Dynasty' blah, blah, blah ... " As the "fawning" hero-worship played out, with Tony and his TV-program-director buddy at his side politely accepting compliments, I got to thinking of something to continue the discussion. Hmm ... fawning behavior ... Faunetta 20-Bore loadings for the old bore rifle ... and the newer one, the RBL. "Hey Tony, have you seen the RBL?" And just then Tony Galazan, proprietor walked up and joined the party ... more greetings, hand shakes, and fawning. Tony Makris quickly said, "Hey Tony, got an RBL?" And Tony Galazan said "Sure." He stepped around a curtain divider of his double-boothed display, and came back holding an RBL, saying "This is my personal gun." Tony Makris took the gun from Tony Galazan, handed it to me, and I stood there like the kid I was when I got my first gun, a 20-Gauge single, for Christmas.  Tony Galazan said there was a year and a half wait to order one, but I could have this one if I wanted. I was hooked, powerless to resist. An RBL double handed to me by a double Tony! Picture with Tony Makris later by the silent auction area:  RBL in repose in Dallas:   Another celebrity in Dallas, Cal Pappas, was able to get his two latest books shipped to me, arriving much sooner than the RBL: A 20-bore rifle is still a bore rifle, nice books for those not suffering from bore envy, and not wanting to be bored by the reading. Excerpt below for review purposes. Review: High quality gun porn with great redeeming social value.      Any RBL experiences would be appreciated, any criticisms, cheers, or jeers, appreciated.   Tony Galazan says this is the load:  | ||
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Who's the geek on the left?    How's the 20 bore shoot? NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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My 20bore Purdey is in that book. I really like the rifle and the caliber. I think JPK here had one of those Galazan rifles. Search this forum for him on the 'Professional' model as it was called. should be great on game here in the US Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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Boy, a.tinker, you have a great memory! I do have one of the "Professionals." Possitives are that once you either adjust the regulation to a load or find the right load it will shoot plenty well. Pretty light, very handy, attractive. Negatives are, once you find the right load you need to buy a semi's worth because adjusting the regulation is a royal pita! It is barrel light, and really needs either the butt bored out to lighten it or some weight added under the forearm. (On the other hand, it isn't enough of an issue for me to have gotten around to doing it, and better than 50/50 yours has been adjusted one way or the other for balance since it was Tony's gun.) I advise trying the load Tony recommended and if it shoots well buying a "life time" supply. Ammo company change the shotgun loading too darn frequently! I'm not sure what scope you have on yours, but they came with 3x Leupolds, which for the type of hunting I do is too much much of the time. Either open sights or a 1x4 Leupold would be great, or something in the range. Thinking about it, I have a newly spare 1x4x24 Swarovski I might have to mount. Much as I would like to tote it without a scope, here where I hunt there are too many opportunities at last light for my eyes and open sights. Are you going to hunt yours with or without a scope? Congrats RIP, your's is especially lovely and you will love it. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Hello Had a 20 bore built by D Schimmel (h2oboy) with 3" chambers traditional regulation to the lightfield ammo. You can search for it. Really like it. I looked at the RBL but did not like the complicated muzzle arrangement. Nitro "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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I'm still looking for that one, saw some 16-bore Purdeys. | |||
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My first 20-gauge as a kid was slept with after Christmas. Little brother in top bunk with his, me in bottom bunk with mine. The Wife refuses to allow me to bring this gun to bed. | |||
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Will find out soon as the snow and ice storms allow at the public range. Since I am not chronographing, probably Saturday next. | |||
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See page 299 By the bores it's a 20bore, but was made to run a thin metallic case. Somewhat of an early 'perfect case' arrangement. There are also a couple of my 16bore rifles in there too, the WR on page 297 is mine. Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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I took the quick and easy "impulse route." Your experiences, on a grander scale, will be helpful with my "toy." Thanks, I have some "must read" starting here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...501013531#1501013531 | |||
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OK, John. I got it. Page 299 of Cal's bore rifle book: "James Purdey 24-Bore" but it actually has .620"-grooved barrels. Yep that is actually a 20-bore. Tricky. Actual bore size of your "Westley Richards 16-Bore" double was not specified on page 297. I assume that is close to .665" grooved? Cal omitted that detail but did say it has a 1:42" rifling twist. You have some beautiful "museum pieces" there. | |||
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Congrats RIP its a beauty, great story behind it. | |||
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Thanks. Kind of a strange coincidence of coincidence and impulse, eh? A "Two-Tony Twenty-Bore." I was tag-teamed!  Taking pictures of the muzzle contraption, I found the only ding on the gun, an ugly little gouge in the rifling near the muzzle of the left barrel. Hopefully not a problem. Not quite a Dremel Tool regulation mark:       If there is anything screwy caused by that ding, then get a crown job deep enough to smooth it, and both barrels to match. Then if regulation is properly set for chosen ammo, fill in the void around the wedge on underside of muzzle contraption with solder, or JB Weld!  | |||
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The WR barrels are Whitworth patent octagon profile. Across the flats it's .653, across the grooves it's .683 Chambers are 16bore, with full groove dia projectiles the thin case is needed. I've run .666 ball in paper cases too which run very nicely. That rifle runs big charges of coal. It stomps.
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Museum pieces? Maybe but they all beg to be shot and hunted with. My opinion only. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I do have a 20-bore that burns some powder. I engraved this one myself, with an electric scratch-pen engraver, .615 Nitro Express 3.5" aka 20 Gauge:  Here is the "900-grain" 20-Bore slug it uses, .615-grooved barrel, cut this one off below the first band and try the nose portion in the RBL:   The as-cast diameter is .616", bullet length 1.150", and weight is 957 grains in soft lead, lighter with harder alloy. Brooks "Tru-Bore" mould, custom design by me, fine tuned by Steve Brooks. | |||
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Oops, not a DR, highjack off, back to RBL ... Current scope set-up: Leupold Ultralight 2.5X and Talley QD-lever rings, low enough! Barely enough room for levers to work, 1/3 turn forward to lock, well timed levers though. Barely enough room to work the action top lever too, but scope is low and perfect for my quick sighting. With such gentle recoil and such a light scope, I trust the Talley rings will survive.  | |||
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If those are begging to be shot and hunted then the RBL is crying like a baby to go shooting and hunting.  Great books Cal. Thanks, keep up the good work. Next one on care and feeding of double rifles is due when? I am a Cal Pappas book collector. | |||
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More details of RBL:                  | |||
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Cal you know these rifles get used. My 8yr old daughter saw me with your book, asked if the rifles I was looking at were famous. I said 'yes, kind of' She asked who owned them and where they were. She was pretty stoked. I haven't gotten into the Victorian provenance with her yet on the Purdey...
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Antique WR 16-bore: Octagon Whitworth rifling .653"/.683" (across flats and corners/grooves). Can shoot .683" conical in a thin brass case, and can also shoot .666" balls from paper cases. Cal couldn't get all those details or else the book would have been a thousand-pager instead of only 416 pages. He did state twist was 1:42" though, and that would seem fast enough for conical, not too fast for ball? RBL barrels appear to me to be like this: .615"-groove, .605"-lands/bore 6-Grooves Rifling twist 1:26". Right barrel RH twist. Left barrel LH twist. I bet the RBL barrels are made by the same folks who made barrels for Hastings: Verney-Carron | |||
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I havent found the right conical mould yet for the mighty WR. It does great with roundball. There wasn't an accepted rate of twist calculator in 1860, and somehow roundball ended up doing great in a wide range of twist rates back then. Wasn't till later on that roundball demanded slower twist rates...  Really though - if I could either find one or get off my duff and make one I'd try a conical in that rifle ...you got an appropriate mould out there RIP? Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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OK... I'm a little slow on the pickup. Is this one manufactured by CSMC? Very interesting regulation system. Looks to be stout. A very beautiful gun! I shoot three inch Brenneke's through mine (that's what it was regulated for). I would highly recommend them, as I have used them on everything from hogs to elk. I hope someday to be able to recover a slug, they seem to just zip right through... The blood trails (although only a few feet long ;-) look like they were poured with buckets from both sides. These guns are the most under-rated shooting systems. I just can't believe more people don't use them. One other thing... I'm going to send mine down to JJ and have him install claw mounts. They would be handy, for sure... Here are a few pics of mine:    | |||
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RIP: Thanks for the kind words. You are right, a "care and feeding" is in the works and I will be done with it my March 1, then to a layout pro, then to print. Should be on the market by summer. Follow my website for details as time gets closer. I tried to get the RBL in the book and asked Galazan for some pics. Free advertising. I never ran into a more rude man than Tony and a couple of his workers. Down right hostile. I was not looking for money to do this, just pics and contact details. Oh well….. As for information contained in the book(s): I can only put in what the owners give me. Some are very forthright, some are not, and some don't know. Whatever, it has been a pleasure to write as I meet so many wonderful folks in the double rifle world (except CT. Ss). Cheers, mate. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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RIP I will PM you some of the loads I have played with. I have Alcan vintage brass and also RMC brass. I also have multi hull high brass plastic. I have played with ball and slugs. Sabots and wads. I still have several years worth of experimental combinations to play with. RB shoots well but leading is an issue. Nitro "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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Cal, Will be looking forward to your new book. Seems that hanging around DSC so much has made me a new fan of DR's. RIP, Congrats on your new "toy." Beautiful and highly useful, I'd think. (Hmm, like wives should be?) .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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The NEI odd-ball slug, meant for a WR 20-Bore Rifle, maybe with Whitworth octagonal rifling?:  Then a +12-Bore suitable for upper end interpolation:  What weight and diameter conical do you think would be good for your .653/.683 octagonal 1:42" twist WR 16-Bore? How about a .666"/600-grainer? The devil is in the details. So how about a superstitiously correct .667"/600-grainer? Brooks "Tru-Bore" has a web page for designing your own mould. I have 12-Bore 1400-grainer and 20-Bore 900-grainer moulds from that source, for the "from hell" 3.85" and 3.5" versions using RMC brass capable of 28,000 psi. Mr. Brooks makes excellent moulds. He does hollow-point or hollow-base moulds too, like my +1400-grain "Darwin Award winning" slug for the 12gaFH:   Pure Lead Ball Weight .310 = 45 grains .315 = 47 grains .321 = 50 grains .350 = 65 grains .360 = 71 grains .375 = 80 grains .395 = 92 grains .400 = 96 grains .433 = 122 grains .437 = 127 grains .440 = 128 grains .443 = 131 grains .445 = 133 grains .451 = 138 grains .454 = 141 grains .457 = 144 grains .490 = 177 grains .498 = 180 grains .520 = 212 grains .530 = 224 grains .535 = 231 grains .543 = 241 grains .550 = 251 grains .560 = 260 grains .562 = 276 grains .570 = 279 grains .575 = 286 grains .595 = 317 grains .600 = 325 grains .610 = 342 grains .648 = 410 grains .662 = 437 grains .678 = 469 grains .680 = 473 grains .690 = 495 grains .715 = 550 grains .730 = 586 grains .735 = 598 grains .760 = 661 grains .775 = 700 grains .835 = 875 grains .919 = 1167 grains 1.052 = 1750 grains | |||
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Thanks, will look forward to any load data to adapt to my 2-3/4" 20-ga. The factory 3" 20-ga load by Winchester is only 50 fps faster than the 2-3/4" load with same sabot-260-grainer, 1850 fps insead of 1800 fps, IIRC. | |||
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Max, Nice meeting you at DSC. Glad to see you are still kicking after what you have been through lately. Maybe a rear-bumper-mounted, Doppler-radar-activated air bag (or double-barreled RPG) could be devised to protect the "not at fault driver" minding his own business at a traffic stop ... Yes, beware the corrupting influences you run into at DSC, like Cal Pappas ... | |||
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Who made Ball&Shot double?and can they be regulated? | |||
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JDA-CO: Good question, and what bore size is that beauty? | |||
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RIP I am casting roundball in 1/10 with tin. I have not given a great deal of thought to slug/bullet weight for the WR. I'm sure when I do I'll be looking at length first. What is the cost of one of those moulds? _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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Tinker, So your .666" 1/10 tin RB weighs about 400 grains? IIRC, the Brooks TRU-BORE moulds were $150 to $200 (5 years ago) for a custom, oversize block mould for bullet > .58-cal, up to .75" diameter and 1.75" length. Now looks like they are up a bit to $180-$230, S&H included. The high end would include the hollow point base and nose pour, or hollow point nose. Calculate a Greenhill length for .667" diameter and 1:42" twist? Here is the web site where you can start designing your own: http://brooksmoulds.com/order.php "Our mold blocks are designed purely as a single cavity, hand casting block for large bullets. Our moulds are made of cast iron which we machine & normalize twice at 1100 degrees before the bullet cavity is cut. The moulds are 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1 5/8" and have three 1/4" stainless steel alignment pins. The spruce plates are made of 3/16" cold rolled steel. Our moulds are designed for use with standard Saeco mould handles. We also make a few special blocks for extra large (up to 12 bore) or extra long (up to 1.75") bullets. Also available are our Nose Pour, Hollow Point, and Hollow Base Moulds." More here: http://brooksmoulds.com/index.php "Our moulds are made of cast iron which we machine & normalize twice at 1100 degrees before the bullet cavity is cut. Our moulds are single cavity and are base pour or nose pour. Also available is our Nose Pour, Hollow Point, and Hollow Base Moulds. Our over-size blocks have a bullet capacity up to .75 caliber and up to 1.75 inches long. $180 or $230 (S+H Included)" | |||
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Here is a handy Greenhill twist calculator: http://kwk.us/twist.html input: .667" diameter 1.555" length 1800 fps MV 10.9 bullet SG (pure lead is 11.3) output: 1:42" rifling twist rate Keeping the WR 16-Bore slug down to an inch in length ought to make it accurate. About 1.5 X caliber for bullet length, or whatever shorter bullet, or hollow-based bullet as desired for target weight. That could end up looking like the WR 20-bore, hollow-based slug from NEI, scaled up. Or the solid-based 12-bore NEI slug scaled down: I better stick with sabot-pistol bullets for my new toy. However, its 1:26" twist would handle .616"-diameter, 10.9 SG slugs over 2 inches long, per Greenhill, if only it could get 1800-grain slugs up to modest speed. | |||
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Yes, my guess is that something like that fosbery projectile would do ok in the WR Deep grease groove and relatively short. I just don't want to have a mould built *just to find out* As it's a double rifle, that bullet might shoot, might not. I'd be happy to find someone who's got a mould, and run twenty or thirty of their slugs, then proceed if they are accurate and shoot to regulation. As it is, roundball works, and it will surely do the job. _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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Well, for the third time, what is the weight of your .666-caliber, 1/10 tin/lead, round ball? If it is only about 400 grains, then yes it would be hard to come up with a conical other than a Fosberry of same weight to get to shoot to regulation. A hollow hemisphere with a skirt. Might better stick with the round ball if it shoots to regulation. Your rifle was not regulated for conical? I thought it was, and you were just getting by with round balls. The 75% Rule: Sometimes a lighter bullet at moderate speed shoots to the regulation of a double meant for heavier bullets. You might be pleasantly surprised. | |||
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RIP I really am a firm believer that a rifle shoot full bore slugs or sabots that are as close to full bore a possible. Since you can adjust regulation dump those piddly 260's And get some big stuff rolling down those pipes. Nitro "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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quote: Originally posted by big will: Who made Ball&Shot double?and can they be regulated? JDA-CO: Good question, and what bore size is that beauty? To be honest, I am not sure who the maker is. It is unmarked beyond proofs and a serial number. It is a 20ga 3 inch. It came with regulation targets from Ken Owen. He regulated it to 3 inch brennekes. It is unbelievably accurate. My best groups are about an inch apart and two inches high at 50yds. As you would expect, it patterns to the sights at 30 yards. I love the gun and it is finished beautifully. | |||
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JDA-CO, Thanks. Regulated by Ken Owen 20-Bore 3". That says enough.
I am sure I will be looking for the perfect .615-caliber-brass hollow-point slug and/or a mould to cast some short, fat lead ones of .616-.617" diameter. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles .615 Nitro Light/20-Bore Rifle/RBL Slug Gun
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