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I'm leaving this topic very open-ended on purpose.... If someone wanted to make a double rifle purchase in either 470 NE or 500 NE for under $15,000....what make/model would you choose? and why? New vs. used? Traditional vs. modern styling/technology? etc... What are the absolute "must haves" for a double in your opinion? _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | ||
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Trick question??? Buy the Merkel 140 for sale at $5999 and don't look back. If you don't like DR's, then you can easily get your money back. DR's are not for everyone. They're finicky, often difficult to shoot accurately, in the calibers you're talking about, kick like a mule. They are also very expensive, so don't tell your wife you are thinking of buying one. And if you follow this forum, you will find we all think we are experts on DR's, when in fact, we only have experience. And experience varies from one DR to another. Just follow the Sabbatti debate. I love Heym DR's, but I have always thought they are overpriced. That is my opinion, and you don't have to agree with me. Probably not a better shooting DR than a Heym. I have shot and sold dozens of Merkels, and they are always reliable, well-regulated, and the stock design fits most people. I have not owned a Verney Caron, but I do like the ones I have handled. Custom DR makers such as Butch Searcy and Bailey Bradshaw offer another option for those wanting something personalized and different. There is not an easy answer to your question. There are some here that will tell you that you must purchase a used traditional British gun. The advice is all well thought out, prejudiced, biased, experienced, and genuine. For under $15,000, you have a lot of options. GOOD LUCK. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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If I had $15k, I would buy a Heym. They are way overpriced but I still want one. If I had 12k, I would buy a Krieghoff or a Searcy. I have them and I like them. If I had 9k I would buy a Merkel; great working guns. If I had 6k, I would buy that used Merkel they are talking about. If I had 5K, I would buy a Chapuis 9.3. If I had 800, I would buy a Baikal (easily the most accurate of them all; crude but accurate and cheap) Parameters for me are; has to be side by side with 2 triggers. Nothing else matters. I hate ejectors. They promote some bad habits from your range practice since I am sure you will not let your brass be propelled onto the ground. I have a Chapuis with ejectors and to me, they are just a nuisance. DRs are addictive and you can't eat just one. You asked about vintage ones; will take more than 15k to get a nitro gun. | |||
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What MDStewart said!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Eland Slayer I highly recommend you go to the Dallas Safari Club show this January 9th through 12th. You will be able to handle most all the different brands of double rifles. This way you can actually see which doubles fit you the best, and which ones you like the best. It would be well worth the trip, and the expense, IMHO. If you do go to the show, come by the Heym Booth and ask for me and introduce yourself. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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My Heym PH 450/400 was worth every penny. It is everything I ever wanted in a double rifle and my favorite rifle out of all I have owned. Definitely stop by the Heym booth, all those guys helping Chris are a wealth of information plus they are easy to talk to. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I really would like to come, but unfortunately I inadvertently scheduled a hunt that weekend. There is a small chance I can still make it for a day, but it will depend entirely on the timing of a property closing I have that week. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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I go the traditional route. You can find a great hammer top lever or underlever in those calibers. Look very carefully and you can find a great no frills boxlock for that price. Dutch | |||
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I can't seem to find the large bore English nitros for that price any more. Maybe an occasional 450-400 or smaller, but the big ones, not so much. But if you find one, that is good. Bad news; I notice that Heym PH price now starts at $17,000. Yikes. | |||
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dpcd: I use a network of collectors/shooters that don't want to advertise on the internet or are looking for a quick sale. Sometimes they call me or I call them. Granted, finding a boxlock in that price range is difficult but not impossible. I have done it 4 or 5 times in the past 10 years. Finding a hammer gun in the caliber and price range is much easier. The Las Vegas show is a good place to start. Dutch | |||
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Good info guys....keep it coming. Just for clarification though, I will not be interested in a hammer gun. This will be a hunting rifle, and will most definitely be used for dangerous game at some point. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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I suggest going with a NEW Merkel or Kriegoff, shop the Blaser ranks as well you will be surprised what you can find in S2s. I wouldn't venture into vintage rifles, leave those to collectors. If you are looking for a hunting rifle, Look for modern steel, modern machining, and modern construction. Macs B U.S. Army Retired Alles gut! | |||
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Right now there are some really good deals out there on double rifles on Guns International and other places. There is the Merkel .416 Rigby discussed above which is a great deal, new VCs, Merkels, and Krieghoffs can be had for under $15K. There was a new Searcy at First Stop on sale. Personally, I think this is a fantastic deal and Mark at First Stop is a great guy: http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100397231 I don't think you will ever see an English nitro rifle for less than $20K unless it has external hammers and even those are rarely on the market. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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Plus you're paying for a rifle that may have been used for a significant part of its 100-year life. | |||
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I have a Verney Carron 500 for sale at $12500. You can see it on Heym's web site or in classifies here on AR. First time buyer of a double should look at all the newer made guns. Asking questions like you are is the way to get good information about makers. There are more doubles for sale right now than there every has been so you should be able to find one you like. Your price range fits most of what is available in the newer guns. If you think of buying a period gun be very careful and make sure it is in good working order. Nothing like an old English gun but there are a lot of dogs out there. Caliber choice is up to you but anything from 450-400 to 500 is good. Sam | |||
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There certainly are some choices out there. Just considering a dilemma myself. A new 9.3 for 6k by the time I get brass, dies and bullets. Chapuis, fits like a glove. Or, a new "demo" K-gun (non-ejector) in 450/400, with upgraded engraving, at the price of a standard Classic Big 5, maybe even a bit less. And I have all kinds of stuff for the 450/400. And then , there is (was?, haven't looked this wk) a VC in 450/400 for 2k less than the K-gun. I really am leaning towards the K-gun, as it is a real deal. But, I don't know that I really want to spend the loot on it. It is one of those "I'd be nuts not to buy that gun" deals. Choices, choices. I like the K-gun, as I have one already, and like it a lot. The VC is a bit cheaper, and the Chapuis is 1/2 the price of the other two. And just to add salt, there actually is a Merkel that is 1500 cheaper than the VC. Not too sure about the Merkel though. Not sure I want one, that's just me though. | |||
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I've put hundreds of rounds through each of the vintage rifles I have owned and have never encountered a problem. Granted, there are probably more newly manufactured rifles currently in use but the majority of complaints/problems I have seen in these threads revolve around the newly manufactured rifles. Dutch | |||
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+1 ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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If I was interested in a quality double that I could use at the range, take on a hunt, cherish, enjoy and then hope to get my money back out of the rifle, I would not look at Heym, Chapuis, Verney Carron, Merkel or Krieghoff. I would take my $15,000 and set it aside. Then I would work on scrounging up another $2,500 - $5,000 and make a deal on a English double. There is simply no comparison between the old English doubles and the newly manufactured rifles. They were better built, handle better, feel like history in your hands and unlike most rifles in this day and age, you actually stand a chance of being able to get your money out of it down the road. Mike | |||
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PONDORO John Taylor said pretty flattering things about the 450/400's of either length for hunting elephant on down. THOSE you'll find, vintage British rifles mind you, from 10K upward... Link 1: Old British 450/400 Link 2: Shows Splinter F/E D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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I wouldn't consider ever buying a new British gun and I wouldn't consider ever buying a new continental/American gun. The new British guns cost 3-5 times as much as a British vintage gun. New continental/American guns don't retain value much like a new car and will lose as soon as you "turn the key". Vintage British guns were produced when labor was reasonable and are doable. Used continental/American guns have had a chance to lose value out of the gait and are more realistically priced. If you're looking at spending up to $15,000 realistically you are in the ball park of a British double rifle and without a doubt where you need to be for a host of used continental/American guns. A British .450/400 is very doable at that price. The .450-476 range is a bit tougher, but still doable for $14-17k if you are patient and do it right. PM if you'd like more feedback. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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+1 There's a WHOLE LOT of sense in that post!!! I've bought and sold 2 vintage British rifles so far and I am most decisively in the black. I just purchased my third and I'm quite sure that I would make a healthy profit if I ever wanted to sell it……which I don't! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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There needs to be expertise in wood or stock making,metal work, gunsmithing and shootability.IMO,no one can do it all by himself-you need the best people. | |||
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Well if you are going to use and shoot it, I would buy a used VC or the Searcy classic they have listed at first stop. You could be in to one of those from 9k to 13k and it will be a solid shooter and good for your life and probably your child's too. The worst you will do is get your money out of it. You may not make anything, but bought right you will play for free. The steel is good you can shoot almost any ammo out of it,and it will be serviced by the maker. He'll, you can get a nice double now for what a nice bolt rifle cost....deal.... For the investment minded. British guns are super cool,and you can still make a buck if bought right,and it's a serviceable gun. I will say they get older every year. My old Watson brothers gun was well used when I got it and got "creeker" every year. I had a William Evans that was like new, and sold it for a pot load more than I paid...but guns like that are few and far between. I know own 2 new made doubles,and am quite happy. I still get the urge for a classic British gun, but I go and shoot what I have and the urge passes. If you get a good one, then it's awesome, but I will say it again--they get a little older every year, and in that 15k mark price range there are a few more dogs barking than there use to be. Ed DRSS Member | |||
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If you like vintage, go for it. But I have zero interest in buying a old rifle. We buy rifles to hunt with, they are a tool, and a double rifle should be built to fit you. I place no romantic value on where the rifle has been or what it has done unless I am the one providing the history. I place value on the rifle fitting me and doing what I ask of it. Never sold one of my expensive doubles so not sure why some are so concerned with resell value unless you just want to flip rifles. If your like Brett and like to buy and sell them vintage most likely makes sense if profit is your motive. Nothing wrong with making a buck. To each his own, there is a market for both. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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You do not find the fact that they are better rifles in terms of fit, finish and function to be reason enough to buy British?  Mike | |||
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What is this? | |||
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Have to plead ignorance on your question Mike. I never been in a store that sold vintage British rifles so never had the chance to shoulder a bunch to compare. Before I purchased my Heym I did explore the auction sites looking to see what was around and while there was the occassonal left handed rifle they still had the right trigger up front which is something I can't live with. Would I ever buy a vintage rifle? Yes, if the fit was good, the triggers were correct for a lefty, and it cost substantially less than a modern built Searcy or Heym that was built for me from the ground up. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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it is difficult to answer this with out being bias to the old English, I am not to sure on the prices in the USA compared to here down South, If you could squeeze out a few more clips to $17000 to $20000 I would look for a 470NE in Army & Navy its a great Box Lock made to last 10 life times of hard African conditions, cash is king so spend some time at the Vegas show if you can and you will be surprized at what you find, | |||
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For $15,000 I would shop for an English gun, I'd have it checked out by one the better doublegun experts, and I would want to shoot it a little..English guns hold and go up in value much better than todays new doubles..I have never owned an English double that didn't double or triple its value over a 5 year period and sometimes much sooner than that. For a new gun in that price range, I've had great luck with Searcys, and they all shot exceptionally well. Next to a Searcy I would opt. for a Merkel as they feel good and fit me well, and that is critical with a double. Most have shot quite well. A double, for me at least, must hit where I Point (not aim) at 25 yards, and hit where I aim at 50 and 75 and I want it to print under 2 inches at 75 yards off a bench. I don't believe in the minute of grapefruit addage, I may want to/need to poke something in its eyeball. Keep in mind that anybody can buy an English double if they have the bucks, but buying one "right" takes time and knowledge or care and advise from someone who knows..Nice guns can be had for $15,000.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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And they can be down right pretty!!  ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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As with every luxury item we enjoy, in the end, it all boils down to money; if you have more, you can buy more exotic double rifles. Just like you can buy more exotic and rare cars, houses and vacations (hunts). If you have less means, you have to settle for products with less snob appeal (not necessarily less functional value). Not fair, but nothing in life is. If I had money now, or any time in the past, I would own nothing but the best name English double rifles. But I scraped to get the more pedestrian, but as functional and reliable, double rifles, both vintage and newly made. I would rather shoot a Merkel now than a Holland and Holland in 5 or 10 years. | |||
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All this talk about British doubles but not one person can tell us what makes them better than others.When it comes to rifles,if you buy one because some people here said it is good you will get the shaft.It happened to me with CZ and my 45-70 Baikal(royal shaft).This place is full of liars and royal shafters. | |||
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 ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I would make every effort to come to the DSC convention. You will get to see, handle more doubles and talk to more knowledgeable people in one place. I would also surest if you can’t make it go see Chaplains they have a good selection of doubles new and vintage. One other place that often has some nice doubles is Willoughby-McCabe. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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Wolfie, I must admit that I originally had the same opinion as you on the vintage vs new doubles. I spent a day with Rusty and Mike Jines at the range earlier this year where they brought out some of their very nice vintage English guns. I have to say that after that range session, I was bitten by the vintage bug in the worst way. Simply put, the new guns just don't measure up in terms of quality and I must also say, none of the new guns came close to the accuracy displayed by every single one of their vintage rifles. Where the new guns typically put two rounds side by side maybe an inch or so apart, the vintage guns, without exception, shot both barrels to a single ragged hole. In addition, just a bit of reflection on the fit and finish was all that was necessary to see where quality really shines in these old guns. The dimensions on these older rifles seemed spot on as well as they felt "lighter" than the scale would show, balance was superb, and they felt "lively" in the hands. It's really something you have to experience to appreciate. Now of course, much expertise is needed in order to buy "correctly" and I don't have that level of expertise, but there are enough guys around who can point you in the right direction and help you get into a good gun. My next double will very likely be a vintage gun. | |||
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Which double did your buddy Jines take with him on his trip to Africa just after your little range session.It was the VC. | |||
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. . . and a Holland and Holland on the trip last year. I realize that having one rifle makes the selection process much more simple, but it is far less fun. You need to spend less time on the computer and more time at the range, Lord knows you could use the practice. Mike | |||
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"having one rifle makes the selection ....,but it is far less fun".Is that something you read in some book? | |||
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