I spoke with Ken Busch of Kebco last week at a Safari Club chapter dinner. He had a sample of a new cartridge by Hornaday, their .375R. It is a rimmed round designed for double rifles and is supposed to be about 200 fps faster than the .375 H&H. He said prototype rifles should be out soon. I just searched the Hornaday site but there is no mention of it. I guess they will have a press release soon.

Another cartridge ?????

Sorry, I would have preferred if they had resurrected the 375 Flanged Magnum.


Speed is NOT the issue with a DR so why the need to go 200 fps faster than the H&H ?
Are they tying to make DR's long range plains game rounds ?

And as H&H found out, as soon as you "up" the power" other issues crop up
which means strengthening or bolstering the action.

.

I don't know the reasons behind this decision, but I can guess. The .375 Flanged is thought by some to be somewhat under powered. The 9.3X74R is not legal for dangerous game in some countries. The .375 H&H is not rimmed so is not considered by some to be proper for a double rifle. I guess their thinking is lets make it "better" than the .375 H&H. With modern bullet construction it likely will work fine and penetrate deeply. I bet it will be a best seller quickly.

Guessing a 375-450 NE

Goshoot, How do you find the Mathelon?
Has it Scope mounts?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Another cartridge ?????

Sorry, I would have preferred if they had resurrected the 375 Flanged Magnum.


Speed is NOT the issue with a DR so why the need to go 200 fps faster than the H&H ?


Are they tying to make DR's long range plains game rounds ?

And as H&H found out, as soon as you "up" the power" other issues crop up
which means strengthening or bolstering the action.

.

I couldn't agree more!

Just what we've all been dreaming about---a 378 Flanged. Talk about tits on a boar hog. This will, of course, necessitate the rifle being considerably heavier, I'd say at least 10 pounds. Such a rifle would defeat the purpose of a light, handy 375.

It is unfortunate that the 375 Flanged is not given its due. The rifles are light enough to be handy and if the cartridge was good enough for Taylor, who is it not good enough for?

If I were Steve Hornady I would figure that someone's got way too much time on their hands.

Wasn't there a thread on hear a while back with Butch Searcy saying that he thought he could make a double with the 375 Ruger round but with a flange?

I have a 375 Ruger and love the round. The only thing better would be a double in 375R. Or would it be 375RR for Ruger Rimmed?

375 Ruger.

Well then why not 375 Flanged Magnum, 9.3 x 74R and if you want slightly less,
375 2 1/2 or 303.

500/416 was the best concept in the last 10 years and look where that got to !!! LOL


The 375RR is just going to add another cartridge to an already crowded line up
and until OR "IF" any DR manufacturers make it, it is always going to be an odd ball.

Answer this question - why would anyone in Europe buy a 375RR over a 9.3 x 74R ?


I agree re you will then get in the 10lb range in weight which will kill it in most people's eyes.

.

I don't think a full-powered 375 rimmed round is a bad idea. If the bullet velocity matches the 375 H&H round it would be better than both the 375 Flanged or the 375 Flanged Magnum.

The rub would come in from the lawyered-up DR builders. A Searcy would undoubtedly chime in at over ten pounds.

Even if I had the money I wouldn't want a ten pound fence post that weighs two and a half or three pounds too much.

Ken showed me this round at the SCI and it looks like a rimmed 375 Ultra Mag or could be like the Ruger as I haven't seen that round. I think he said velocity was going to be around 2700 to 2800 but I'm not sure. Verney Carron is making a double for it I think.

Is this the same as the recently developed .375R Verney-Carron?

GREAT,

Something else to think about spending money on ...

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Is this the same as the recently developed .375R Verney-Carron?

I guess that is what we were talking about. Maybe Ken will jump in and tell us.

This is a very interesting development. I doubt that this new cartridge will simply be a rimmed .375 Ruger because the Ruger only has .017 taper and a very sharp shoulder. Not really conducive to a double. However, I understand the idea. According to Graeme Wright's book, most flanged .375s regulate at 2300-2400 fps with a 300 grain bullet. The 9.3X74R regulates at about 2250 fps with a 286 grain bullet. At double rifle ranges, there really is little difference between it and a flanged .375. However, most makers chamber the belted .375 and those rifles are regulated with off the shelf .375 H&H ammo which presumably runs around 2500 fps without any problem. Thus, we already have a "fast" .375.

When Krieghoff made the .500/.416, the parent cartridge was the .470, a cartridge perfectly suited to a double. I am curious to see what the new Hornady cartridge will be but simply putting a belt on the .375 Ruger might not be the optimum way to go.

This is the 375R V-C. I am talking to Hornady regarding making dies and it will be a stock item, brass is already available in Europe and I will be importing some, I am also talking to commercial loaders here in the US.

Some guns chambered for the 375 H&H have ejection problems with the small spring loaded ejector tab jumping out of the groove in the case head. This case was designed so that it would completely clean up a H&H chamber and give you a rimmed case.

Not all guns chambered for the H&H will be suitable for the max loaded 375R V-C. As tested the V-C round will give several hundred fps faster than the belted H&H.

I shot this round last year while at the factory, and some of the boys at the factory field tested this round (along with a rimless version for bolt rifles) in Namibia last summer. I will have a gun chambered for this round in the next month or so and look forward to trying it out on game myself.

If someone is interested I can scan them a diagram of the case.

Damn you Ken!!

Now I'll have to darken your doorstep so I can see my next acquisition.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:

As tested the V-C round will give several hundred fps faster than the belted H&H.

If someone is interested I can scan them a diagram of the case.

Ken, I am not sure I understand why it would be necessary to put a cartridge in a double that approaches the ballistics of the .378 Weatherby but I would love to see a diagram of the case. Can you send it to me at dbush2508@charter.net

Thanks.

Originally by Kebco:

quote:

This case was designed so that it would completely clean up a H&H chamber and give you a rimmed case.

That's why they didn't go 375 Fl Mag.
They ought to offer BOTH; the Fl Mag
at or under 9 pounds!!!

Jack, Chapuis offers the flanged version of the .375.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Originally by Kebco:

quote:

This case was designed so that it would completely clean up a H&H chamber and give you a rimmed case.

That's why they didn't go 375 Fl Mag.
They ought to offer BOTH; the Fl Mag
at or under 9 pounds!!!

They do offer all 3, the VC rimmed, the Flanged and the belted H&H.
I will also have a Flanged gun here in a few weeks

OK, Ken,

Send me a photo or drawing of the V-C 375. Gotta start thinking about what I will be harassing you for the next project. You know what an unreasonable PIA I can be.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Goshoot, How do you find the Mathelon?
Has it Scope mounts?

I bought it from Ken Busch of Kebco. Mine does not have mounts but if you order one I am sure you could get what you want. Just ask Ken

A 450/400 3" necked down to .375 caliber might be an interesting thought.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
A 450/400 3" necked down to .375 caliber might be an interesting thought.

465H&H

That's an interesting thought - I am not advocating it, just saying !!! LOL

Has anyone actually done it as a Wild Cat ?

.

Ken....you are VERY lucky I already have a Searcy 375 Flanged Mag....'cause if not I'd have to fly up there and beat you silly for bringing in what I think is the perfect "low end" dbl with a 1x5 scope!!!

Nice stuff. I LOVE the 375 Fl Mag round...and in my Searcy with a low variable loopie on it is slightly south of the 10# mark.

Congrats!

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

Gary:

Can you tell me at velocity your .375 flanged regulated?

Dave...yep.....300 gr Woodies at 2400 fps. I'm in the process of sorting out a good 270 gr loading, but haven't done so yet since the economy has SCREWED UP MY AFRICAN plans and I have no need other than pure pleasure to work one up. Hoping to get around 2600 fps with it.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

New round could be interesting if the rate of twist works well with 350's. Might make an interesting choice for the Ruger #1 as well for people thinking they need more speed than the H&H version.
Nice to see Hornady at the drawing board working on new stuff

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:

Dave...yep.....300 gr Woodies at 2400 fps. I'm in the process of sorting out a good 270 gr loading, but haven't done so yet since the economy has SCREWED UP MY AFRICAN plans and I have no need other than pure pleasure to work one up. Hoping to get around 2600 fps with it.

Gary

Gary:

I just got a little Chapuis 9.3X74R from Ken. It regulated pretty well with 57 grains of Reloder 15 and a 286 Woodleigh RN SN. That load came from Graeme Wright's book, Shooting the British Double Rifle. The book says 2250 fps out of a 23.6 inch barrel but I haven't had a chance to run it over the chrony yet.

That is a sweet load, Dave. On my first African trip I used the 9.3x62 bolt with 286 grainers at about 2400 fps and they worked awesome on all I shot. Used the 470 on buff, but all else shot with the 9.3....good round.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

For a variety of reasons, this round makes very little sense to me in a DR.

It would, however, make since in a single shot.

I cannot think there would be a market (at least in the U.S.) in DR's which would justify Hornady's expense in getting this round into production.

Given their past relationship with Ruger I think it is possible we may see this loading in a No.1.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
They do offer all 3, the VC rimmed, the Flanged and the belted H&H.
I will also have a Flanged gun here in a few weeks

Hey Ken,

Will it be in the same shipment as my V-C 600NE?

If so, maybe that 375R V-C will "accidentally" fall into the box when I pick up the 600.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
For a variety of reasons, this round makes very little sense to me in a DR.

It would, however, make since in a single shot.

I cannot think there would be a market (at least in the U.S.) in DR's which would justify Hornady's expense in getting this round into production.

Given their past relationship with Ruger I think it is possible we may see this loading in a No.1.

Perhaps that's their thinking as well:
Small but present DR market but bigger single shot market to keep it afloat.

Honestly,
I was thinking about a 375Flanged for my next DR for all the reasons that you, 500N and others have said - light, handy and "good enough".

In the back of my mind I also felt, "too bad it is underpowered compared to the belted 375H&H (2,400fps/3,800 ft-lbs vs. 2,650fps/4,600ft-lbs for a 300g bullet)".

Time will tell about it's survivability in an already crowded market. For me, that doesn't matter one whit - as long as I have enough brass even if I have the only rifle chambered for that cartridge I enjoy using it. Same perspective as most wildcatters, I think.

Paul:

Graf & Sons has Jamison brass in .375 flanged. It's about $280 for 100 pieces. They also have Hornady 9.3X74R brass for about $130 for 100 pieces and the 9.3 guns are a bunch lighter and cheaper. Most of the newer 9.3 guns are built on a 28 guage frame and are only about six pounds. At 50 meters, I doubt that your cape buffalo would know the difference between a 286 grain Woodleigh from a 9.3 and a 300 grain Woodleigh from a .375

Hey Dave,

The 9.3x74R is a great round and I had a Chapuis UGEX in that very caliber. It was all the things you've said and a pleasure inall ways.

I am not, at the moment, in the market for anything else but I like "different" if not unique chamberings for no other reason than I like them. There may be another 9.3x74R in my future, but that's a few iterations away.

375 Flanged Kynoch load for 300gr bullet out of a 28" test barrel. Figure loss of 25fps per inch lost. 24" barrel would produce 2325 fps.
http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/375%20flanged.htm

9.3x74R Norma load for 285gr bullet. The PH line is tested in 24" bbls. I no longer have an email I received from Norma, prior to the PH line coming out, stating 24" test barrels. All Norma ammo I've shot over the years seemed full house, if not hot, loads. For me it confirms they haven't tested with over long barrels.
http://www.norma.cc/sortimentj...&Kalibernamn=9,3x74R

The 375 Flanged is well up to the task. The 9.3x74R is practically identical.

And check out the barrel length for the 470NE. Strongly supports Kevin Robertson's theory that old Kynoch ammo was downloaded compared to advertised specs. What he doesn't mention, can't believe he doesn't realize, is the long test barrels.
http://www.new-kynoch.apt-site...0Nitro%20Express.htm
Low pressure big bores usually lose about 10fps per inch shorter barrel, and this jives with so many modern chrono readings of older Kynoch 470 running about 2050fps.

Good info from Chuck Hawks on Velocity loss (or gain)
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Paul:
At 50 meters, I doubt that your cape buffalo would know the difference between a 286 grain Woodleigh from a 9.3 and a 300 grain Woodleigh from a .375

I've shot a fair few Water buffalo, big (1 tonners) and smaller with both of these loads at low and high velocities when bullet testing / culling and they all drop dead just the same.

At the end of the day, it is a lump of lead at X velocity.

.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
At the end of the day, it is a lump of lead at X velocity.

.

.

That's what my wife says about me ...