Hope this is not an ignorant question but here goes... I have been searching around the net for info on this but it is still a little unclear to me.

When the rifle is regulated at a certain distance with certain loads, does this mean:

a) The barrels shoot in close paralell (group) at that distance

or

b) The barrels shoot bullets that cross at that distance?

I have a hard time understanding why b) would be the case and why bullets have to cross before a very long range (say 500 yards). Who would not be happy with groups the mere breadth of the bores at any range? Or is it a mechanical problem to regulate a gun in this fashion?

a) is what they're going for when they regulate barrels to a certain bullet/load. Sometimes b) happens, but shouldn't in a propperly regulated double when you're shooting the load it was regulated for. Shoot a load it's not regulated for????? who knows perhaps it will cross.....perhaps it will not. And accuracy? Who knows!

This is why it's important to pay attention when shooting groups with a double while working up loads. You need to mark R1, L1, R2, L2, ect to keep straight which barrel shoots where in a 4 shot group. Accuracy is a function of luck, quality of regulation, functional quality of rifle, and your ability to use the same load as it was regulated for or duplicate it with hand loads. My double just happens to shoot 1.5" 4 shot 50 yard groups from a standing rest. 2-4" groups would certainly be reasonable for most doubles and for some even 4-6" groups at 50 yards.

Brett

Brett,

Isw 50 yards the benchmark for regulation?

Yes, the bullets, in a properly regulated rifle, are regulated with bullets of a specific weight, and specific velocity, generally speaking, AND WILL NEVER CROSS, BUT WILL SHOOT PARALLEL TO INFINITY.

Does that mean the bullet brand (say Woodleigh/Barnes etc) of same weight and velocity will be expected to regulate similarly?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Brett,

Isw 50 yards the benchmark for regulation?

I'm not sure that it's a benchmark but it's certainly practical and functnal. That is from a standing rest FYI.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
Does that mean the bullet brand (say Woodleigh/Barnes etc) of same weight and velocity will be expected to regulate similarly?

Absolutely not. It may regulate the same but there's no guarantee of that.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
Yes, the bullets, in a properly regulated rifle, are regulated with bullets of a specific weight, and specific velocity, generally speaking, AND WILL NEVER CROSS, BUT WILL SHOOT PARALLEL TO INFINITY.

One of the guys who sells doubles on here told me that was BS. He said at some point all doubles will cross. Mind you, I do not doubt what you are saying. Just would like to hear from others about this who know more than I do.

Anyone know for sure?

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
Yes, the bullets, in a properly regulated rifle, are regulated with bullets of a specific weight, and specific velocity, generally speaking, AND WILL NEVER CROSS, BUT WILL SHOOT PARALLEL TO INFINITY.

I'd like to see the mathematical calculation and proof of that theory.

quote:

He said at some point all doubles will cross.

I don't get it...if the barrels are parallel, why would they cross?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
Yes, the bullets, in a properly regulated rifle, are regulated with bullets of a specific weight, and specific velocity, generally speaking, AND WILL NEVER CROSS, BUT WILL SHOOT PARALLEL TO INFINITY.

One of the guys who sells doubles on here told me that was BS. He said at some point all doubles will cross. Mind you, I do not doubt what you are saying. Just would like to hear from others about this who know more than I do.

Anyone know for sure?

quote:

I don't get it...if the barrels are parallel, why would they cross?

I always love this discussion....the difference between paper theory and the real world of double rifle regulation.

So lets start with the theory. In theory you can take two identical barrels with the exact same specs(twist, bore, groove, profile, weight, length, crown, barrel harmonics....etc) and place them exactly parallel in all axis then bolt them down to a permanent fixture that will remove all recoil....and in theory when firing a right and a left with two identical loads of exact matching specs they will fire in a perfect parallel to infinity.

This is all well and good on paper and in theory but it's a far cry from the real world, first problem is getting two exactly matching barrels. Even the best made air gauged barrels only have a tolerance of +/- .001". Now .001" doesn't sound like much but stretch that variance out over 50 yards with two separate barrels and pretty soon you have inches to deal with. And that is just the first of many issues, barrel harmonics are always slightly different, crowns...even cut on the best equipment are rarely exactly the same, even the heat treating and or cryogenic process has some effect on barrel variations from one to the next, then you get into heat effected variations from the joining and soldering process that goes into putting the barrels together. All of this is just a few of the problems of two different barrels then we get into the actual real world physics of regulation.

The first misconception is that double rifle barrels are parallel....they are most definitely not, because if they were you wouldn't have any kind of regulation at all. Two parallel barrels will never shoot to the same point(or even parallel) of impact because of the dwell time the bullet is in the barrel and the recoil forces acting against the shooter. The theoretical of bolting them down to a non moveable surface isn't possible in the real world because the rifle is being carried and mounted to the shooter who is most definitely a moveable surface. The reason the barrels can't be parallel is because the point of rotation is not the center line of the bore, the point of rotation is the mid line between the two barrels. This means that when recoil forces start to act the right barrel(on a right handed gun) will tend to recoil more back and more straight up, while the left barrel will tend to recoil up and to the outside(to the right). If both barrels were parallel then the bullets would be leaving the muzzles at different location in relation to the recoil cycle and the position of the gun to the shooter. It might only be a slight amount of difference at the muzzle, but at 50 yards or 100 yards or farther that difference becomes exponential. The way to compensate for this is to "regulate" the barrels so that the bullets leave the muzzle at the same position during the recoil cycle. The ideal outcome is a rifle that shoots as close to parallel(bullets leaving the rifle at the same relative position during the recoil cycle) as possible at muzzle width, the reality is that, that kind of regulation is very time consuming, eats up a lot of ammo and cost a lot of money because of the labor intensive work required to regulate to that level of accuracy. So usually a compromise is made...best accuracy with a given load at a given distance, without crossing till a point past that regulation distance/point of impact.

Given the "general" mission statement of most double rifles....a quick second shot at close range, less than 100 yards, usually less than 50 yards on large and dangerous game, with large medium to big bore rifles. It really isn't relevant in the real world if the bullets are parallel to infinity as long as they aren't crossing until well past the point of usable accuracy for the rifle/mission. To sum up, if the rifle will shoot left/right groups 3" at 50/100 yards(depending on caliber) that are not crossing and are on the same horizon(at point of aim), then you have a rifle that is more accurate than "most" guys can shoot off hand or even off of sticks.

That's my two bits worth on the subject....you guys are more than welcome to tell me how wrong I am, but that is my understanding of the theory versus the differences in the real world I know to be true from the double rifles I have built and the ones I personally use.

BTW this is the simplified explanation, the long version is enough to write a thesis paper on in physics/engineering. Might make an interesting paper for some college man to work on for a few years....maybe get a gov't grant to study all the forces/mechanics/physics involved in double rifle regulation. LOL....they give grants to study everything else....


Colin

That's a good explaination Cowboy. Due to the "swing" right or left as the gun recoils and with the bullet still in the barrel, all DR barrels actually converge in order to compensate.

The only thing I want to add is the counter-intuitive fact that double rifle barrels are actually bent! Put another way, the chambers are exactly parallel (as shown by the fact the standing breach is perfectly flat), yet there is convergence at the muzzles to acount for the barrel time mentioned above.

Add in the fact that a, say, right handed shooter can cause the gun to swing differently to the right vs the left under recoil because of the way it is held and it's easy to see why this is a skilled art and not a science.

Bob

quote:

the difference between paper theory and the real world of double rifle regulation.

Colin,

That's an interesting explanation, thanks. Have you tested doubles that were properly regulated for their intended use to see where they actually did cross? If so, what were the results?

Cheers,

True...Omnivorous_Bob, I should have explained that a little better, that "regulation" is actually bending the barrels to compensate. I've had some that only required changing the front wedge to get them to regulate. Others...one in particular I fought with for a long time before it finally dawned on me that it was the middle wedge(sling swivel wedge) that I needed to move...regulation can be frustrating at times, so many variables that can be changed. It's even worse with muzzleloaders because of consistency in loading and fouling issues.

quote:

That's an interesting explanation, thanks. Have you tested doubles that were properly regulated for their intended use to see where they actually did cross? If so, what were the results?

Can't say as I've ever done any actual testing to see how far out a properly regulated double would shoot. I can say that I have seen a cheap muzzleloading double that was crossing at 10 yards, and I've had one mid-grade cartridge double come through my shop that was shooting 1.5" R/L groups at 200 yards and not crossing....in double rifles you get what you pay for and sometimes you get more than you pay for.

Colin

Thanks Colin. I ask because I see quite a few doubles with flip up sights to 300 yards and wondered what the likelihood of them being close versus 'in the area' they were.

Maybe someone who own a similar double has tested al very long range??

That is the way that I understand it, too. The barrels are affixed to the action and then regulation is done via a series of shims, solder and binding and trial-and-error shooting to achieve the desired result.

For a definitive answer, of course, one should ask a maker, not an owner. I'd ask Chris Soyza of Westley Richards in Birmingham if I really needed to know specifics. Chris is not only a long-time doubles expert but also a metallurgical engineer.

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
That's a good explaination Cowboy. Due to the "swing" right or left as the gun recoils and with the bullet still in the barrel, all DR barrels actually converge in order to compensate.

The only thing I want to add is the counter-intuitive fact that double rifle barrels are actually bent! Put another way, the chambers are exactly parallel (as shown by the fact the standing breach is perfectly flat), yet there is convergence at the muzzles to acount for the barrel time mentioned above.

Add in the fact that a, say, right handed shooter can cause the gun to swing differently to the right vs the left under recoil because of the way it is held and it's easy to see why this is a skilled art and not a science.

Bob

BaxterB
This is just a guess, but even if the bullets are crossing at 150 or 200 yards, the amount of spread at 300 is still well within hunting accuracy....so a 300 yard leaf would still be reasonably accurate.

The real problem is, how many guys do you know who can shoot that accurately out to 300 yards using iron sights from an off-hand or stick supported position?

I'll tell you honestly that I can't, for example the other day I was shooting my 30-06 Mauser98 (rear peep, front blade/gold bead), it's a very accurate rifle....at 25 yards off the bench I was getting slightly larger than one ragged hole 5 shot groups.... When I moved back to 100yards the groups opened up to about 1.5" off the bench. When I stood up and put 5 shots off-hand the group opened up to a little bigger than 3". Now honestly I consider that to be just fine for hunting whitetails in Kansas....but I know with my vision and my shooting ability that at 300 yards I probably couldn't see the bull on a paper target well enough to hold the sight picture and off hand the group would open up dramatically, probably to a point that wouldn't be in the kill zone on a whitetail. If I could keep the group on a piece of 8x11 paper at 300 yards with open sights I would be impressed with myself. I know my limitation and hunt within them, so even having a very well regulated double with blades to 300 yards wouldn't do me much good. I suspect I'm not alone either....

Colin

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Thanks Colin. I ask because I see quite a few doubles with flip up sights to 300 yards and wondered what the likelihood of them being close versus 'in the area' they were.

Maybe someone who own a similar double has tested al very long range??

Interesting discussion and thanks for the explanations.

For what it is worth, my Chapuis 9.3 will shoot around 1.5 inches at 50 yards.
With the crude one leaf "long range" sights that are on it the same load will NOT cross at 300 yards. I discovered this by accident after shooting off hand at a 300 yard gong at our local range and finding out I could hit it 75% of the time. Next tried it on paper but only for 10 or 12 rounds. Accuracy at this distance shocked me (in a good way) and gave me the confidence to take a shot a moose at a lazered 287 yards (might of been 283, forgot). Absolutely a lucky shot but it was a quick decision to shoot before the moose walked over a hill after a hunting partner missed it three times.

The Chapuis is the only double I ever fired at 300 yards and that is the only distance beyond 50 that I tried it on paper. Anyone else ever do any long range testing with a double?

Thanks snowwolfe. I was hoping someone had tried out those long range sights on their double. Sounds like your Chapuis is a keeper.

………………..1779 words that are free for accepting or rejecting!

I believe that it is common in the USA that most folks think of a double rifle as either too expensive, or not suited to hunting anything smaller than an elephant, or both. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The double rifle is the only rifle you can have that started its life as a hunting rifle. All other types started out as a war weapon, and then were applied to the hunting fields. Since it is the only true hunting rifle, that should be reason enough to attract hunters in the USA, but for some strange reason this has never happened.

I blame this on ignorance! Now before some of you guys get your feelings hurt, let me explain! Ignorance is nothing but a word that describes the fact that something is not well understood, or not known at all. It has nothing to do with a person's intelligence, but that he simply has not been taught something.

This phenomenon is not limited to the run of the mill hunter, or the guy who is not well up on "GUNOLOGY”, but is rampant among gun writers, and even some of the most well known rifle smiths in the USA, and many other countries. Even people who have taken the big five, and grand slams of all kinds are sadly ignorant when it comes to the double rifle. The misconceptions are a bag full that would slow a train to haul.

A double rifle can be made to shoot several different loads but it is not easy! The easiest thing is the regulating a double rifle to a known load at the factory. The hard part is finding a load that will shoot to the regulation that has been built into the rifle by the factory. That being said, to get the absolute best from any double rifle one needs to hand load, and once found the rifle will shoot properly with that load. What is needed is a pair of loads that will shoot to regulation with a soft and another with a solid to the same basic composite group. This takes some experimenting but once found you can take on just about anything on Earth with most of the chamberings that come in double rifles.

In the USA we tend to read the gun rag guys, as if we were reading from scripture, and anything they say has to be correct, simply because they said it. Again we are being misled, in some cases because the writer is too lazy to do the research, but mostly because they are printing opinion that they think is true. We all do that on occasion, it is only human because nobody knows everything. Still when it is put into print, by a self- proclaimed expert for the public to read it can lead the reader in the wrong direction. (some say this is what I am doing here but what I tell you can be verified quite easily)

The double rifle is a complex type of rifle to build and make shoot properly. No formula, or jig can be made to get away from the tedious work of fitting these things so they work properly. All types of things have been tried to make regulating the barrels easy, and nothing has worked. Most think if you simply make the barrel exactly parallel then the rifle will shoot side by side! So why not simply use a laser to align the barrels and save hours, and hours, plus several rounds of very expensive ammo to regulate the barrels? The reason is, it simply doesn’t work.

The barrels have to be laid to not only converge, but to point with the line of sight crossing, and low, compared to where you want the bullets to hit the target. The double rifle depends on the recoil arch (muzzle flip) of the rifle, and the speed of the bullet to shoot to where the sights are pointing when the trigger is pulled. IOW, if you place the barrels of a perfectly regulated double rifle in a vice with the sights held dead on your target at the iron sight' regulated distance, then with an empty case, with no primer, in each barrel using the primer hole like a peep sight, look through each barrel. What you will see is, the right barrel will be pointing at a place that is low and on the leftof where the sights are aligned. The leftbarrel will be pointing to a place on the rightand low in relation to where the sights are aligned. This is necessary because of thing called barrel time combined with recoil flip. What that means is, when the trigger is pulled on the RIGHTbarrel, the rifle rises up and to the RIGHT while the bullet is traveling down that barrel, so that the barrel is pointing to the point the sights were when the trigger was pulled, and Vice-versa for the left barrel. So the double rifle depends on the recoil arch, and the bullet's speed down the tube, to be aligned when that bullet exits the barrel. This converging of the barrels can be done exactly the same with two rifles shooting the same cartridge and they will not shoot the same, so each rifle has to be regulated by it's own rules to work properly. This is just one of the reasons even the cheapest quality double rifle requires over 800 to 1000 man hours of skilled labor to complete, hence the cost of manufacture. However when this is done properly no rifle in the world is more reliable for hunting anything from jackrabbit to elephant depending on the chambering.

The problem with the explanations for the way regulation works is two fold! #1 is the way the makers have always advertised their rifles. By this I mean when the maker says “THIS RIFLE IS REGULATED AT 50 yds or 100 yds!” people think this means the rifle crosses at that distance! That is not the case! This only means primary standing sight is cut to aim at dead center, of a composite group of both barrels for elevation, and windage at that range, nothing more. #2 Is because the barrels have to be slightly converging this and the makers statement about the sights seems to the unschooled to mean the rifle crosses at the sight’s regulated range. Both the reasons seem to be a no-brainer, but both assumptions are wrong, and not work that way!

Now we come to the smith who believes these two things and he may get the barrels to regulate when building a set of barrels but he seldom knows what he did to achieve it. So because he got one to work properly he assumes he has found the secret. My prediction is the next set he builds he will have a hassle with it as well, because he still believes the bullets from each barrel should hit the same hole at the distance he is regulating for. That DISTANCE has only to do with the way the sights are cut, and is done after the barrel regulation is completed. The reason for his thinking has made him confuse making all the bullets from each barrel make one large ragged hole at the range on the rear sight. The mistake he is making is that a regulator is looking for, not bullet holes to adjust, but the “CENTERS” of the INDIVIDUAL barrel’s four shot GROUPS that he wants to move to equal half the distances between bores on either side of the aiming point of the iron sights LEFT barrel GROUP CENTER on the LEFT of the aiming point and the RIGHT GROUP CENTER on the RIGHT of the aiming point, and both at the elevation of the aiming point of the sights .

To top this off the way these individual barrel four shot groups are come by is also most often done improperly as well even if the parallel concept is fully understood. In this case because a double rifle is a firearm that is to be used, firing the first shot from ambient temperature barrels set, with the second shot fired with a very short time after the first barrel being usually the right barrel, is fired, sort of a “ONE, TWO punch” from cool barrels. Because of this fact, to get a proper four shot group from each barrel to find the centers of each barrels group one must let the barrels cool to ambient temperature for each one two shots, one from each barrel till you get four from each barrel. Now you can find the centers of each barrels group, and these centers are what you want to move with adjustments not bullet holes! So now you begin to see some of the cost of building a double rifle when regulating the barrels, just to find the centers of the individual barrel groups has cost eight rounds of very costly ammo, and a lot of time, and this is simply to find the starting point to start the regulation!

Regulation and shooting by the owner are two entirely different things. However when regulating the rifle barrels, or finding a load that shoots to the regulates properly in those barrels the same four shot individual barrel groups must be properly found to load a proper load for a rifle that the regulation load is not known, just as it is with the factory regulator does with the cooling of the barrels properly to find the centers! Then speed up if shooting high and wide or slow down if shooting low, and crossing. The center of a barrel’s individual group should never cross over to the other side of the aiming point. As the groups of any barrel group with get wider at that groups goes down range so that as the groups of each barrel gets larger the RIGHT side of the LEFT barrel group will spill over into the other barrel’s group, but a properly regulated barrels set or proper load for that regulation the CENTERS will not cross. If it does then it is the shooter that is causing it to cross not the rifles regulation!

If you choose not to believe anything I have just written here that is your privilege, but that is the way a properly regulated double rifle was designed to work, and if it is fine with you that your rifle is crossing the individual barrel group centers, that is your privilege as well! I’m only the messenger, and I speak the truth it is up to you to decide if you want the message or not! After all it is free of charge.

................................. BYE!

Thanks MacD37....

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
Yes, the bullets, in a properly regulated rifle, are regulated with bullets of a specific weight, and specific velocity, generally speaking, AND WILL NEVER CROSS, BUT WILL SHOOT PARALLEL TO INFINITY.

I'd like to see the mathematical calculation and proof of that theory.

Well this is close, from Wright's book, page 165:

"For all practical purposes, in a correctly regulated rifle, you can inmagine the bullet paths from individual barrels,starting as tow parallel lines starting at tne muzzle, and CONVERGING at some distant point. So apparently the theory of "parellel to infinity" seems like more internet horseshit. jorge

Without writting a book on the subject it can simplified as follows"

1. the barrels tied with copper wire, a wedge is inserted into the front under the rib an tappped in a bit..
As the gun is shot the barrel are move around and tied the fired until the POI of both barrels come together but do not cross at a given yardage usually 50 or 75 yards..
That load is the regulation load for that particular gun and the barrels are soldered in that position..This is regulation.

Then the gun must be sighted in and for that you use the sights..Regulation is often confused with the sighting in process and they too seperate processes and have nothing in common...

Of possilbe further interest one should shoot 3 or 4, 3 shot groups with each individual barrel to determine which barrel is the LEAST ACCURATE, that will tell you what kind of group that particular rifle is capable of shooting, note that I said the Least accurate as the least accurate barrel will open up the group of the most accurate barrel...

Now when you just can't leave well enough alone and are trying to work up a load for accuracy with a different bullet'powder combination than regulated load, you have an accuracy goal to meet and that is the lest accurate size group of the regulation load.

I won't go into converging as that has been covered and doesn't apply to regulation, it is merely a fact of life with a double that at some point it will converge or cross over at probably just the other side of 100 yards as a rule of thumb, and that isn't a given, its just a good possibility.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
Yes, the bullets, in a properly regulated rifle, are regulated with bullets of a specific weight, and specific velocity, generally speaking, AND WILL NEVER CROSS, BUT WILL SHOOT PARALLEL TO INFINITY.

I'd like to see the mathematical calculation and proof of that theory.

Well this is close, from Wright's book, page 165:

"For all practical purposes, in a correctly regulated rifle, you can inmagine the bullet paths from individual barrels,starting as tow parallel lines starting at tne muzzle, and CONVERGING at some distant point. So apparently the theory of "parellel to infinity" seems like more internet horseshit. jorge[/QUOTE]



Jorge I think the Horse shit you refer to is "GUN RAG" horse shit! However you are free to believe which "Horse shit" you want!

Quick check on Wikipedia will provide about all you would want to know about parallel lines and the corresponding mathematics. Intersecting line drawn across parallel lines will always remain the same angle, be it perpindicular or othrwise the entire length of the parallel lines to infinity.
Having said all of that, does it really matter if the two bullets cross each others path on their way to the target providing the spread is not excessive?? What is excessive would be the question and to me anyway, if the bullets cross and impact some 2-4" apart at 100yds or less I don't see that as a "bad thing?" I'm speaking here of horizontal spread, not vertical. If the vertical spread was greater than the horizontal example I see that as a problem. My questions aren't for academic issues, but soon to own a double rifle and looking forward to doing my own testing and much appreciate all the experience and knowledge found here.

Noted Mac! and noted on the Wiki post which is scientifically correct, so Mr Wright is not "perfect"

Mac now go over to the 450NE thread and comment!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Noted Mac! and noted on the Wiki post which is scientifically correct, so Mr Wright is not "perfect"

Gentlemen both ideas are correct! (crossing & parallel) But what everyone is forgetting is these two barrel’s center-of-bore are at most only 1 inch apart. So with even each barrel shooting a one inch group at (which is good even for a very accurate single barrel bench rifle) it stands to reason the part of that group will spill over into the one inch group of a barrel that is only ½ inch away! This fact doesn’t mean the barrels are crossing because this will happen even when the two barrels that close together shoot exactly parallel because the group of each barrel is one inch in diameter around a center of group of each barrel so half of each group will superimpose over the group with it’s center only ½ inch away. This is what is meant by Mr.G. Wright!

Even at close range the right side of the left barrel’s group will superimpose the left side of the right barrels group, and the left side of the right barrel’s group will do the same on right side of the left barrels group. Nobody is arguing that point. This is what causes a composite group.

However, this is also why a very good composite group of both barrels is slightly egg shaped with the aiming point of the sights squarely in the center of that composite group of both barrels. The “CENTERS” of each barrels individual group, if properly regulated, will remain on it’s own side of the aiming point! I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that!

The fact is when the factory regulator is regulating is the “CENTERS” of two barrel’s individual groups till the CENTERS of two properly found four shot groups from each of those barrels, moving them by trial and error till those two centers are on the same horizontal plain, with the aiming point half way between those two centers.

It seems people here think that both groups should completely cover the other at the range the sights are cut for and that simply is not true!

The above facts are why I get a smile on my face when I see folks showing a “TEST” target with only two shots on them! That target means absolutely nothing other than the rifle shot one shot from each barrel on a target! Most are not even indicative of which shot came for witch barrel, and even if it did there is no indication of where the center of each barrels individual group is! These targets are deliberately misleading. The makers know that most who buy their product have zero idea how regulation works anyway.

I fail to se whey this subject genders so much anger and hatred on these websites when the information is free of charge, and is not mandatory that the reader accept it as fact, and is quite free to believe otherwise in a modern society! I realize that folks were burned at the stake at one time for believing the world was not flat, simply because that was not the belief of the majority. Evidently I was under misconception that we had moved past that mind set today!

Said my piece, and it cost nothing to agree or disagree! Let me dig my foxhole before you open up with all your bullets crossing in the middle of my forehead!

................................... ....................................

Mac,

I sent you a PM awhile back but haven't heard from you. Having some difficulty with my 9.3 and wanted to get your input. Maybe even meet up and do some shooting together.

Let me know.

Todd

Great post Mac and I thank you. After hundreds of round through two doubles, my bottom line is that the composite average at 50 yards, no matter what load combo I shoot, neatly falls into a 2" ellipsis. When I do my part with my handloads I can easily shot less than 1" groups with it. Can't beat that!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Great post Mac and I thank you. After hundreds of round through two doubles, my bottom line is that the composite average at 50 yards, no matter what load combo I shoot, neatly falls into a 2" ellipsis. When I do my part with my handloads I can easily shot less than 1" groups with it. Can't beat that!

..............And you are absolutely correct!

Jorge:
Your quote, from Wright's book, simply shows that your Mr. Wright was wrong, "bullshit," using your word. Your saying that someone has written bullshit shows that you need to learn to first do some serious research before calling someone full of bullshit. MacD37, with his long winded explanation, was 100% correct, if you still are not sure, and he also tried to inform you all that even many of the "authoritative" writers, such as your Mr. Wright, are wrong on this matter. Finally, Mac, wisely, indicated that you all could disagree with him if you chose to do so, chose to continue to believe misconceptions, but it would not be prudent to say someone has written bullshit, because you just might be wrong.

I believe I said that exactly, i.e., the mathematical explanation did just that, prove Wright--and me-- wrong. I guess since english is my second language, I did not express myself correctly, for surely there is no way you misunderstood what I said.

Mathamatics aside..I have owned and shot more double rifles than the average bear, and every damn one of them that I have shot at long range crossed before it got to the 300 yard target and mostly the 200 yard target and some at 100 yards, Pa-ra-lell be damned, it just don't work that way...It would seem if one makes such book learned claims then they would have at least tested the therory out.

Bottom line, they cross, now is that because of inaccuracy and the groups open up quite large at those distances and the bullets go wherever or are they actually on parrell lines, I don't know but checking and recording each shot tells me they cross at a undetermined range, depending on the rifle and its regulation...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Mathamatics aside..I have owned and shot more double rifles than the average bear, and every damn one of them that I have shot at long range crossed before it got to the 300 yard target and mostly the 200 yard target and some at 100 yards, Pa-ra-lell be damned, it just don't work that way...It would seem if one makes such book learned claims then they would have at least tested the therory out.

Bottom line, they cross, now is that because of inaccuracy and the groups open up quite large at those distances and the bullets go wherever or are they actually on parrell lines, I don't know but checking and recording each shot tells me they cross at a undetermined range, depending on the rifle and its regulation...

Now you are thinking!

So I guess I'm right after all, the parallel-to-infinity as a determining factor of a double's proper regulation is just that-- internet bullshit....

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Bottom line, they cross, now is that because of inaccuracy and the groups open up quite large at those distances

Now you are thinking!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
So I guess I'm right after all, the parallel-to-infinity as a determining factor of a double's proper regulation is just that-- internet bullshit....

Jorge. what are we going to do with you?

Let me ask you a question. If a barrel is shooting a 1 inch group at 50 yds, and another barrel 1/2 inch away from the first barrel and it is also shooting a 1 inch group at 50 yds don't you think the part of each 1 inch group will spill over into the group of the other at 50 yds since thewy are only 1/2 inch apart?

Because the groups get larger the farther they go down range, it stands to reason the some of each barrels individual groups will mix in the middle of the composite group of both barrels. AGAIN, this does not mean the the center of each barrel's individual groups has crossed. That is not a secret I have kept form everyone here, and I have stated that fact several times in this thread alone as well as about 100 more threads on the internet. The factory regulator does NOT regulate bullet holes, he regulates the CENTERS of each barrel's individual four shot group in relation to the other barrels CENTER of four shot group till these CENTERS are on equal distances on each's CENTER OF GROUP on it's own side of the aiming point. Once again the properly regulated double rifle will print the CENTERS of each barrels GROUP IT'S ...............

......................OH Hell I give up! THE GROUP CENTERS DO NOT CROSS!

You can lead a mule to water but you can't make him drink it!

......................See you! I'm outa here!

OK Mac, I'm with you. I'm just not smart enough to understand that's all! Bottom line if your rifle shoots a 2" parallel group @ 50 yards or better then it is a well regulated rifle and "parallel to infinity" is not a valid measure of effectiveness to use as a benchmark as some have purported. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
OK Mac, I'm with you. I'm just not smart enough to understand that's all! Bottom line if your rifle shoots a 2" parallel group @ 50 yards or better then it is a well regulated rifle and "parallel to infinity" is not a valid measure of effectiveness to use as a benchmark as some have purported. jorge

Jorge, You are still hung up on what makes a good group on a buffalo, and that is not what this is about! What is being discussed is how the double rifle's barrels are physically regulated by the regulator AT THE FACTORY!

When he is soldering and re-=soldering and moving wedges to get proper regulation, what he is moving is the CENTERS of four shot groups from each barrel till they are shooting at the same elevation and equal distances on either side of the aiming point of the sights, with the left center on the left, and the right center on the right!

When he has done that then and only then cah the rifle have flip-up down range sights that work! Those sights with two or three flip-ups will always have their centers in line no matter the range. These sights will not work if the rifle is crossing the CENTERS of each barrel's individual groups, and they do work if your load ios right!

Ray says "if that were true don't you think soome one would have tested the theory?" The answer is they have and I have. the factory regulator tests the theory every time he regulates a rifle, then all the sight maker has to do is mount the standing resr sight, and all the flip-ups in line with each other, and cut them for elevation for different ranges.

I have three doubles with flip-ups and I can assure you they shoot properly at the range they are cut for, with either barrel!

Now folks I'd love to see those flip-ups work when you work up a load for your rifle so the barrels cross their group centers at any range!


.........................BYE folks have fun!

Mac, you are 100% accurate in what you say about regulation, and I commend you for repeatedly trying to explain it to some who are so sure that you, and I, are wrong. Here we go again, too, with Jorge again preferring to call someone's post "bullshit" only because he still can't understand the truth, and won't research the concept himself. Frankly, I, like you, Mac, tend to want to give up too, throw up my arms, just move on, and say that I don't give a rat's ass; leave slow learners in their ignorance.

However, one more final time: As I said earlier, the FACT is that a Properly regulated double rifle will shoot its bullets PARALLEL TO INFINITY; NEVER CROSS--this isn't bullshit, it isn't a theory, it is a fact-- (with infinity probably needing explanation----infinity here meaning to a reasonable range for those bullets). Our Mr. Atkinson says that he has shot more double rifles then the average bear........and I don't doubt that. Yet, in doing so, he still hasn't learned this fact, thus, he went on to mention "book learned claims,... don't you think someone would have tested the theory?" Again, it is a fact; not a theory, not only shown in "books," as he puts it, but shown in practice every time a double rifle regulator regulates a rifle, as Mac has tried to explain. Mr. Atkinson may have shot a lot of double rifles, but so have I, and I have an extensive collection of double rifles from which I have learned from. I learned the regulation process--not theory-- from W. Ellis Brown in gunsmithing school, in his class, "converting shotgun actions to double rifles," prior to his writing book on same subject. In practice, for years, I have regulated numerous double rifles, some that were conversions, so every time I did that, I "tested," Atkinson's term, the facts of regulation, as has, explained by Mac, double rifle regulators all around the world for a good many generations. If you still insist on believing otherwise, so be it!