I have been working on designing a rimfire double rifle to go into production in late 09. I am VERY close to machining prototype parts and need to hear opinions from potential customers regarding barrel length for rimfires....primarily 22lr.

From what I have read, anything over 16" offers no benefit for velocity. That being said, 16" tubes don't look "right" on a double rifle. I am leaning towards using 20" barrels. Possibly 18"??

As a side note to "introduce" the gun. The action is sized the same as a 28ga, round action of Dickson/ McKay Brown influence with removable trigger group, double Purdey underbites and a few unique touches of my own.


Please let me hear your opinions on the barrel length!!

Thanks!!

Bailey,

I wish you God's speed on your project....I am a very likely consumer of your efforts.

I think 20" is about as short as you'd want to go....what is the projected weight @ 20" barrels?

Do you need the 28 gauge-sized frame or could you build it on a true .410 frame?

Good luck

quote:

Reply

Thanks,

I was thinking the same thing in regards to 20" being the shortest.

The reason for going with a 28ga frame is for future 28ga shotguns with 22hornet barrels as well

I have to say 24". I just find that any SXS rifle with shorter barrels looks awkward.

But, if the stock was very short, like for a woman or youngster, than maybe 22" might look ok.

What does 24" do for the 22lr?

BTW, if the price were reasonable, I would be a customer too. Maybe even more likely with the 28ga/22 Hornet combo.

JPK

26 inch barrel, please! The rifle will look better with longer barrels!

And put me on your waiting list!

Hey Rusty,

I replied to your PMs on the Nitro forums. Just didn't notice they were there until recently.

Anyway, I agree with you on the longer barrels making the gun look better. I was just concerned about the effect on how it shoots. The goal is to group 1" or less at 50yds.

Barrel length is obviously going to have to be a selective option. Yours will have the length you want.

Thank you, sir!

Apparently something is wrong with my IMs on NE.com. Please feel free to contact me directly at rkmojo@aol.com

I rarely disagree with Rusty on anything pertaining to double rifles, but in this case I do!

The way a double rifle looks has more to do with it's "BALLANCED"looks than the length of the barrels alone!

IOW, the smaller the over all rifle is the shorter the barrel need to be to balance properly, and to look in sync muzzle to buttplate!

A very narrow action, and slinder stock will ask for shorter, thinner barrels than a very large action, with fatter, longer barrels.

A double chambered for 375 H&H up, will look very good, and ballance well with 26" barrels, or even 28" barrels, But IMO, a tiny little .22 barrel set on a very small action, and very slinder stock should never be over 24", and as far giving the best use of the powder charge in such a small cartridge as the .22LR, or even the .22 Hornet, nothing is gained, velocity wise, with barrels longer that 20", but 24" wouldn't slow it considerably. Long barrels are a hold over from the black powder days, where the barrel length was needed to use up the black powder charges, and is not needed balisticlly with modern chamberings, with faster smokeless powders!

If you take a sample of good bolt action .22LR rifles, and measure the barrels, I think you will find none over 24", and most with 20" barrels. There is a reason for this, and the same applies to modern shot barrels with modern shotgun ammo, Velocity suffers when barrels get over 26", and work better with barrels in the 24" barrels. With a .22LR the only thing gained by barrels longer that 24", is longer sight plain, and swingability!

Harry has a .22LR double rifle with a set of 410ga barrels, and I have examined that little jewel personally, and If I'm not mistakened, the barrels are 24", for both sets, and it is perfect, in both looks, and shootability on running jackrabbits!

If it were me I'd do the first one on a 410ga size action, chambered for .22LR,.22 Hornet, and a 410ga shot set. Then later go to the 28ga action, for the 28ga shot barrels, and a set of .22 lr,22 Hornet, 218 bee, up to .32 H&R mag, or 357 Rem Mag!

No matter what you decide, I'm a potentual customer, for one of both action sizes, and barrel combinations!

...........production sequnce pictures would be a nice preview!

My must defer to Mac's judgement on this matter. 24 inch barrels will be fine with me.

Mr. Bradshaw,
Please do include me on the list. Your mention of a 28 gauge/22 Hornet combination simply puts it over the top... I love 28s and have always wanted a quality .22 Hornet Double Rifle for the odd ditch panther that needs sorting out...(grin)

Best Regards, Matt Garrett
mattgarrett@earthlink.net
757-581-6270

I have a .22 Hornet double that I built on a .410 action. The barrels are 24" long and for me give good balance and good looks. I shoot 50 grain, flat-nosed, cast bullets at 1650fps from it. Accuracy is excellent and it kills squirrels and rabbits with FAR more authority than the .22 long rifle.

Sounds very cool Ron,....got any pictures??

I'm interested. I'd vote for 22" to 24" barrels. I wouldn't like them too light and a spare set of .410 barrels would be a nice option.

Bailey, go here, for some photos.
Ron.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...earch=true#Post86251

A "Cape Gun" in 410 x 22 might be a fun option for the mixed bag man and would ease compliance with your accuracy standards. To my eye a 24 to 26 inch barrel is going to look best and the longer tube quiets the rimfire to a surprising degree. For the record, I'm not a potential client, as we have two kids in college and I'm working on my Master's, but I wish you and your enterprise all possible success.

I'll say right off,I'm not a double gun guy...

Out of my price league....


But I handled a Westley Richards 22 hornet double today....

Now the asking price was $37,500

But I can see why this stuff turns you on...




Dan


PS 24" barrels

I machined a wood model of the action I will use on my doubles. It is scaled to 28ga size. Working the bugs out of the programs is best done with wood as it saves $$ on cutters and steel.

Hope y'all enjoy!!

Robert Churchill made some "double rifles" in 22 Long Rifle. So we have been there, seen it and done it in the UK some sixty plus years ago.

Not just "armchair rimfire double rifle experts". He used 25" barrels and they look JUST RIGHT. The key is to have a barrel diameter that is about the same as your wooden breech trial.

Any talk of using barrels under 20" is a nonsense. The thing will look like it is a bandit gun as there is no bolt to give it overall length. Over 26" is too long. It will look like a skewer!

25" will mean that you could legally sell it as a smoothbore...the ultimate ratting gun...in the British markets too. Maybe a simple choice of two stock styles? Semi-Pistol (the rifle), Straight Hand (the shot gun).

I'd also offer one stock length only but make that 15" or 14 3/4" so that the buyer can shorten it.

I would not offer bespoke or custom length barrels. One size fits all is probably best. Specials or one-offs mean that you are forever chasing these rather than building a basic stock of the same thing.

I'd also regulate for one standard load that is available worldwide. Something like the standard 40 grain bullet "High Velocity" load. Allow use of solid or hollow point.

I'd lose the side bolsters. They won't be necessary and will add to cost. Plain "fences" are quite OK!

Churchill's rimfires can be seen in various books....I think that his work "Gameshooting" has a photograph. He produced them without sights just a bead. This is because actually he made them as "extra tight full supreme choke" shot guns. Reasoning that the tightest choke of all would be a single bullet.

They were designed for use wildfowl flighting at extreme eight plus yards ranges.

I think that it is a good and interesting project. Don't go with the ridiculous short barrels. This from someone who has seen "hands on" and handled one of his rimfires. It won't look right AND it may also restrict where it can legally be sold.

Most target grade rimfires use long barrels! Why? The velocity is more consistent at the muzzle!

It really looks a great idea. Best wishes and all success!

Thanks for the input Enfielspares. Very insightfull. I have settled for now on making these with 24" barrels. These are to be full sized guns, not made as small as I can make them, so balance is paramount both visulay and mechanically.

They will have a few options, but definately NOT custom. I go down that road too often in my bladesmithing.

Grenadier

I have been mulling over the mustches as well. I love the idea of them forming a sort of side clip or clam shell on the action. There won't be any sharp corners, so I will keep them for now and see how the protptype carries. ( I hold my guns there too). If there is a problem, I will eliminate them or figure out a new arrangement. As for barrel regulation...there are so many 22 loads, and I am sure they even vary from batch to batch a little, that I will make an adjustable wedge for the customer to regulate to his favorite load. I will certainly regulate them before they leave and indicate the load I used. I don't forsee barrel flex and pressure issues either, but until no 1 proves it, I will just wait and see.

Thanks again for the input. I find it very valuable.

Building your own Double rifle is the hard way to get into the DRSS (Double rifle shooting Society).

Bailey,

I commend your design and while the grain direction is correct I don't think wood will be durable enough for the receiver of even a .22lr rifle.

Can't wait to see this project develop. I hope you sell a truckload of them. Best of luck.

Kyler

"the action is sized the same as a 28ga, round action of Dickson/ McKay Brown influence with removable trigger group, double Purdey underbites and a few unique touches of my own."

Mr. Bradshaw,
I could not agree more on the suitability of the Dickson/McKay Brown influence. I would go soo far as to say I would love to see this rifle utilize a round body receiver. Friendly to the hand and pleasing to the eye...

Regards, Matt Garrett

I don't want to rain on your parade because I admire your skill and I wish you well. However, please don't expect to make any money on double rimfire rifles. The number of well-heeled people willing to spring for one of these rifles is extremely limited. I suggest you make one prototype for yourself and then only take orders for guns within a narrow specification set. I don't think there is an economy of scale with this item. I wish it were not so.

Several of us got to meet Bailey and his wife at the DSC this weekend. We all fondled the wooded action model he brought along. I don't know if he can make a living making those, however there are a bunch of us "Well Heeled" guys standing in line to get one!

Bailey is a great guy! Really enjoyed the visit.

Hey Rusty!!

It was great to meet you and our other members yesterday. It was a highlight of the show for me.

After visiting with you, I went to see Doug Turnbull. Showed him the action model and he suggested it was too big for a 22., indicating it would be too heavy. I originaly designed the action at .410 scale and scaled it up to avoid it feeling like a toy. I handled a few .410s and decided the "toy" factor wouldn't be an issue (CSMC had one of their Model 21 .22 doubles still in the white at the show. It feels too small to me and has a too delicate feel.)

Luckily it is easy at this point to scale it back to a .410 size. Got to love CAD programs!!

Thanks again, full steam ahead!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
I went to see Doug Turnbull. Showed him the action model and he suggested it was too big for a 22., indicating it would be too heavy.

After holding the wooden model, I agree with Doug, and I believe you'll be much more pleased with the final results of the smaller frame. Good luck on this project! I can't wait to see it come through.

Thanks New Guy,

I have scaled the frame down and it if in the finish machining stage on the VMC now. Should have pics tomorrow of the prototype after the machining is complete.

Great to meet you at the show. Hope is was a great one for you!!

Getting things underway. I have the prototype action machined and semi-polished. I made a mistake on the rough machining stage by not leaving enough material for the finish machining. It left me with deeper than necessary tool marks to file and stone out. Next up will be the trigger group block, monoblock and forend iron. I plan to work on them over the weekend.

Here are a couple of pictures. Hope you enjoy, and let me know what you think. BTW, it is just under 1.5" from top of the fences to the bottom of the action. .410 sized overall.

Ok, I'm so rooting for the success of this project!

Thanks for the update. Looking good!

Bailey,
In designing a new double rifle, regardless of caliber, one should look at original guns and measure the breech ends of the barrels. This will determine the size of the action. If you look at most 22 rifles, the breech of the barrels are usually about 3/4 in. Put these two together and you can extrapolate the size. However the size of the action will have to be slightly larger to accomodate the size of the stock. This will have to be a compromise to keep your stock from being too tiny. Barrels should be conberged approximately .002/in per barrel to regulate, and approximately 22 inches long.
Best regards,
Ken

Ken,

Thanks a bunch for the information. I was thinking the barrels would need to be preset to converge, but how much was the question. Thanks again for that.

I just checked my CAD drawing for the diameter of the breech faces... they measure .748" each. Just lucky on that one. Better lucky than good :-)

Please feel free to chime in if you see a detail or area that I need to change or double check. I take critisism very well, so don't ever think I would be offended by you taking the time to help. Quite the opposite, I greatly appreciate it.

Bailey,

Count me in as a potential purchaser once the .22 Hornet/28 gauge barrels are in production.

Not sure, but following on Ken Owen's remarks (welcome to the Board, Ken), you'll need to consider breech diameter carefully to fit 28 gauge, but then I suspect you've already calculated that....

Regards, Tim

Been doing a little more work on this. I assembled the lockwork and have the trigger group fitted. So far, only a small pile of obsolete parts.....prototyping can be a bitch.

The locks have flat V springs and rebounding hammers. I have the triggers on the EDM now and will fit them over the weekend.

I removed the extended "moustaches" as fitting the monoblock was going to run the cost up too much.

Moving ahead....

I have an 18.5" bbled 20ga double shotgun,I really like its length for what it is for, but, I would agree that for a 22LR double, anything under 22" would be to short.

Also think about a set of 38 Special barrels.

Awesome Bailey!

Bailey,

I love it. At the risk of sounding rude...

WHAT WILL THE APROX PRICE RANGE BE?????

Thanks

Jamie

Jamie,

Thanks, glad you like it so far. I'm doing my best to keep the base price around 5,000.

Hey Rusty!!

BB, are you going to make it to the shoot on May 2, in Houston?


Keith

quote:

I removed the extended "moustaches" as fitting the monoblock was going to run the cost up too much.

I think that you are absolutely right to remove these - not just on costing grounds. The gun looks 100% better for NOT having them.

On all the "great" guns such as the Colt 1911, the Webley MkVI .455 etc "form follows" function. In other words there is nothing on a Colt or a Webley that isn't needed.

The moustaches aren't needed on your .22 project and it looks the better, cleaner, more functional for it.

I would be certain that others will support my view. The gun is BETTER for their being omitted.